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Your thoughts on the new TMCC II Legacy System Locked

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Posted by chuck on Monday, November 20, 2006 12:31 PM
The SD40 is in the 2007 part of the catalog.  The subway set is legacy equiped and in the late 2006 part of the catalog
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Posted by 1688torpedo on Monday, November 20, 2006 9:50 PM
Chief- When you were at CTT  I'm surprised you did not show them how to Run a Train & Catch a Bass with a Cab-1 Controller.Plus, How to Oil the Big Red Knob & to keep it from getting squeaky!Wink [;)]Clown [:o)]Wink [;)]Clown [:o)]Big Smile [:D]Whistling [:-^]Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] Take Care.
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Posted by jonadel on Monday, November 20, 2006 10:50 PM
When I got back into the hobby 8-9 years ago I decided to go with DCS and waited for it to come out and I haven't been disappointed. But I am waiting for the new Legacy to add it and have the best of both. I really enjoy having the freedom to move all over the train rooms and control my kingdom and look forward to handing over one of the controllers to my grand daughter to help me out.

Typically I'm not a very patient person but I am willing to wait for the new Legacy system.

Jon

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, November 20, 2006 10:50 PM

 1688torpedo wrote:
Chief- When you were at CTT  I'm surprised you did not show them how to Run a Train & Catch a Bass with a Cab-1 Controller.Plus, How to Oil the Big Red Knob & to keep it from getting squeaky!Wink [;)]Clown [:o)]Wink [;)]Clown [:o)]Big Smile [:D]Whistling [:-^]Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] Take Care.

YUZ GIZ are wrong.  It is the DCS remote wheel I have to oil. Wink [;)]  Don't you remember the guy who bought DCS and could not get it hooked up right.  Once everyone told him how, he finnally got it working but had problems with the wheel.  He could not get the hang of it.  So he posted he had oiled it to make it work smoother. Shock [:O]Dunce [D)]  Tom P then posted a picture of his big oil can and pretended to oil his DCS remote. Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

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Posted by drbeck on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:30 AM
Have the old one and love it...can't wait for the new one...bugs (if any) and all I'm sure I'm going to love it as well...dirve on Lionel and Neil Young, "it's the technology stupid..."if it wan't for TMCC I would have never gotten into training...wiring blocks? are you kidding? The world runs on computers
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Posted by thor on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:29 AM

I don't know that I entirely agree with all you doom and gloom merchants about kids not liking trains. What kids like, in my experience as a parent and teacher, is novelty and hands on action amongst others and trains represent the first because they arent a commonplace anymore.   Every kid thats seen mine or heard me talking about them, has had the same positive reaction - though my audience is very young being our daughter (4) and her school friends.

It came as a surprise to me because I thought trains were 'old hat' but thats just the thing of it, nowadays, they aren't! I entirely agree with Brianel about the TOY TRAIN aspect, Asherah's choices are for action accessories, we just bought that tipping gondola and she's going to wear it out, giggling herself silly as it fires all sorts of things into its little tray!  I gave her a go with a TMCC handheld and she says she likes "the big box thing" better because "its better to use" which, as far as I can make out means she can operate the speed and direction controls at once which is essential trying to get that tipping car centred right over that tiny magnet.

I recall at about her age, what impressed me most about a big layout was the control panel with all its switches, buttons, knobs and lights - real futuristic! It looks exciting and important to be in control of something like that, whereas a handheld, is just like a TV remote, no big deal really.  A decent train layout is fascinating because of its apparent complexity, lots of stuff to look at, things to do, for instance our daughter takes refilling the smoke unit real seriously, she insists on doing it and obviously gets off on the whole care and precision of counting the drops, making sure they go only in the hole and so forth.

She's better at centring the tipping car than I am!  Takes it real seriously and has a very delicate driving touch.  However, she won't play with the train itself at all unless I'm there to watch her do it and either give advice or compliment her.  It makes her the center of attention THAT is the main attraction.   

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:24 AM
My nephew [12] walks in the trainroom.  Give him the TMCC remote and tell him what the button and knobs do, he runs trains with no experience at all.  Loves it now.  Kids are growing up with playstations and computers.  A train remote is nothing to them.

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Posted by laz 57 on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:37 AM

 drbeck wrote:
Have the old one and love it...can't wait for the new one...bugs (if any) and all I'm sure I'm going to love it as well...dirve on Lionel and Neil Young, "it's the technology stupid..."if it wan't for TMCC I would have never gotten into training...wiring blocks? are you kidding? The world runs on computers

Same as above.  Love it and learned alot from it.  I also have the MTH DCS system and is also great to use.

Can't wait for the new LEGACY system.

laz57

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Posted by 3railguy on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:28 PM

 RR Redneck wrote:
I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.

Two years from now, you should still be able to buy one.

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Posted by Deputy on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:13 AM

Okay...so just WHAT ARE the advantages of this system over the old one that makes it worth spending a considerable amount of $$$ to get it??? Question [?]

Dep

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Posted by brianel027 on Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:45 PM

My feelings are solidly based upon what I have seen with my own eyes. For almost a decade I had a portable display layout that was decidedly affordable, very low-tech with no rope or no barrier. I went to smaller shows and seemingly out-of-the way events where kids were present. I watched first hand the reactions of the kids who not only seemed fascinated with the trains, but were just as amazed with my low-tech operation.

Young boys especially wanted to know how a piece of fish-line, some counter-weights and some springs could make something operate. Times have changed, but boys will be boys. Things are so push-button oriented today, and that's the only way I can explain the excitement of the kids for what I had done. They simply don't see this kind of thing as much today.

I have also first hand seen the excitement of kids who do have train sets. And I have seen them tell their friends. Granted, it may not be big numbers, but still I have seen it happen so I know it still can. Kids may not know what a steam engine is, true. But they still seem to be fascinated to watch one run. I've watched kids throw near tantrums because of having to leave my house and not get to play with the trains anymore. One mom recently sarcastically thanked me and told me now they were probably going to have to get their kid a Lionel train set. I laughed to myself and thought, well, there is still interest.

I agree Deputy, parental supervision is a good thing and as a society, we need more of it. My reference was strictly in terms of a train layout. I don't worry much about kids playing with a layout that has been geared to and built for kids. I thought of some of the things that could go wrong in advance, and made the layout with that in mind.

When I used to pick up a nephew from school, I would bring along the latest train catalog, and then watch him show it off to all his friends. I'd watch the kids fight to get close enough to see what all the excitement was about. I'd watch boys grab the catalog and run up to their parents to show them when they arrived to pick up their kids. So maybe my experiences are different. I'm not just content to say this is a hobby for us old farts when in fact I have seen first hand the interest and excitement from kids today - even without the high tech bells and whistles.

As far as my comments on Neil Young, I've loved the guy's music as long as I can remember and he has been without question my number one influence. Other musicians I've played with have joked I really got the "Neil thing" down tight. At a show I did years ago, some guy in the audience came up during an intermission and asked who was writing for who: was Neil writing for me or was I writing for him? I took that as the highest of compliments.

But Neil is just as opinionated and hot-blooded on this hobby as I am, even if it is on differing sides of the train track. His comments on Erol Gurgan (locolawyer) were promptly removed from his website, probably when cooler minds prevailed. I simply find it ironic that on one hand Neil is determinedly low-tech, non-digital and non-computer when it comes to the recording business despite the fact the record industry has been the total opposite for the past decade. Just as ironic as his support for small family farms via the Farm Aid concerts, which one could also argue are a thing of the past. I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. I just find it interesting that was one the leading single innovators for the high-tech trains of today, can be so old-fashioned on other topics.

Lionel must be feeling the heat about Legacy too. They haven't advertised in the train mags for almost 2 years, and yet there is a double page ad concerneing the new Legacy system in the current OGR magazine. It's possible maybe even Neil paid for the ad.... who knows. But either way, I doubt they would have put the advertisement there unless they felt like they needed to. Of course, the ad shows Neil with a ZW, and not a command base power unit... another small piece of irony. While the hobby moves on to the future in some respects, there is also an obvious connection to the way things once were.

As with anything in life, it is one thing to "hear" about something, and another to see it for yourself. I have personally seen the interest from kids in trains today and have seen that the trains don't necessarily have to be high-tech to spark that interest. I have spoken with thousands of parents over the course of a decade and have heard first hand their reactions to the hobby. I wish I could tell you that they were as excited about the high-tech trains as we are, but they are not - at least when it comes to retail pricing. (but there's also a "shock" factor and for someone with zero reference to the hobby, I can understand how some prices would seem high). And because I have seen the interest in the hobby from young kids and families for myself, this is why I feel the way I do.

 

 

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Posted by nblum on Friday, November 24, 2006 7:22 AM
"Okay...so just WHAT ARE the advantages of this system over the old one that makes it worth spending a considerable amount of $$$ to get it??? Question <img src=">"

Don't think anyone can answer that question until the product is in people's hands.  Early info is that the signal generation and transmission protocols will make the system more robust and resistant to interference, there will be an LCD screen to view commands and touch screen capability to issue commands, the functions of the action recorder module will be incorporated into the system, there will be lots of new sound features (particularly the ability to "play" the whistle and otherwise customize sounds), there's a simulated feedback feature, better speed control than the current Odyssey system and much other stuff. For some this will be fluff, for some folks this will be the coolest thing since TMCC I :).
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Posted by Deputy on Friday, November 24, 2006 3:23 PM

Brian: I don't dispute that there is an "initial fascination" with toy trains and kids when they first encounter each other. Mainly because they are so rarely seen nowadays (the trains, not the kids)...whether real or in toy versions. But I question the "staying power" of toy trains. A basic layout that goes in a figure 8 or oval might be nice initially, but even Lionel realized that toy trains have to DO something besides just going in a circle. That's why there were/are so many operating accessories. It's a fact that young mind's attention span is normally limited to about 15 minutes, unless they are truly INVOLVED in what's going on. Operating accessories, intricate controls like TMCC and DCS, and operating cars are what help KEEP that young mind involved. Of course, all of this is variable based on the age of the kid and what other things he is interested in.

I'll refrain from commenting on Neil Young, other than to say I don't care much for his music or his rather confused politics (seems like he's wearing John Kerry's flip-flops).

Neil (not Besougloff or Young): So it sounds like Lionel is playing "catchup" with MTH as far as their remote control system is concerned. Not sure the price justifies the tweaks they are giving. Guess I'll wait till it drops to 1/2 the current price Big Smile [:D]

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Posted by nblum on Friday, November 24, 2006 5:38 PM
"So it sounds like Lionel is playing "catchup" with MTH as far as their remote control system is concerned. Not sure the price justifies the tweaks they are giving. Guess I'll wait till it drops to 1/2 the current price"

I think we'll need to see it in action with its finalized specs to know whether it's worth it.   For one thing TMCC II had better not "catch up" with MTH's DCS in terms of complexity, release prior to debugging,  or generalized unpredictability,  or it definitely won't be worth the price to me :). TMCC I works fine and does 95% of what I want a command system to do, and does it trouble free and elegantly.
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Posted by brianel027 on Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:24 AM

Hey Duputy, thanks for that thoughtful response. I mostly agree with you. But I do know there are kids who just seem more prone to having an interest today as it was years ago.

In my neck of the woods, trains are highly visable. The Norfolk Southern mainline runs along the main highway, runs through town and so trains are very visable. You can't go to Wal-Mart here without running the likely chance of seeing a real train go by.

I've been party to instances where I've gotten to see the interest from kids.Certainly not all kids, but definitely some. Those kids are the ones to be reached... along with the parents, who need to know about the hobby and that Lionel trains are still being made and not just something from the distant past. Even to this day, despite some the press Lionel has gotten (Neil Young's ownership and technology contributions, the bankruptcy, Polar Express, Lionel back in NYC, Lionel trains on the Soprano's, the History Channel specials etc) there are still many people who don't know the company is STILL in business. That seems to me to be the number one challenge: public awareness and advertising.

Kids haven't changed much through all these years. Though the world around them has changed a lot. I remember when I was a kid and many of my friends also had trains. And some of them lost interest due to space age toys, slot cars, etc. No doubt this would continue today too. What has changed for the 3-rail hobby is simple awareness and availabilty. It is certain that real trains are not as visable in many parts of the country. Just as it is certain Lionel trains don't have the visability they once had - though Jerry Calabrese is working to change that.

A couple weeks ago I was in a little antique shop where there's a guy who has a display of used Lionel trains. I like to pop in because his prices are more than fair and I can often pick up a train car for under $5. I got my nephew a couple of used decent condition Lionel postwar sheetmetal 027 swtiches for $4 each. Very fair price. Not a couple weeks ago, there was a family in there with a little boy and he was looking at the trains with me. He had all the bright eyed wonder of the world in his eyes - just as I probaby did years ago. His parents told me the kid was just nuts about trains. And once again I got the response that Lionel was no longer in business. Well, I corrected that false view and hopefully planted some seeds that are going to get that kid his first Lionel train set. That kid got real upset when they left: "I want to look at the trains!!" I kinda laughed to myself as I watched through the window of time of what I myself was probably like at that same age.

All Lionel needs to do is to reach the kids out there who already DO have an interst in trains. And the first job is letting the parents of those kids know Lionel is still around and making products aimed at them. For all my gripes about the seeming hi-tech, scale direction of the hobby and the lopsided product offerings in this direction, I will also be the first to admit that Lionel DOES make some very decent and affordale offerings for the beginner.

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Posted by Deputy on Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:51 AM

Well here's something cool-interesting. A local stationery/gift store has an elderly gent (good grief...elderly meaning he's MY age!!! Laugh [(-D] ) that is having a toy train demonstration today. This is the 3rd Annual demonstration he has had, and the first one I'll get to attend. I can't really judge the affect on kids, since the majority of the population in my area is Hispanic and fairly poor. I suspect the majority of the people attending are going to be in my age bracket and most likely will be Caucasian. I called my Father-in-law and he is gonna meet me there. From what I have seen of the collection, we are talking about a LOT of postwar Lionel. Very cool!!!! Thumbs Up [tup]

Only trackage in my area is Southern Pacific and ore mining tracks. And there is no trackage or activity near to me to make them very visible. Have to drive a considerable ways to see any trains in my area. One neat thing is the demo being put on today seems to be sponsored by a train club in my town. I guarantee I'll be looking into joining it!! Big Smile [:D]

Please don't misunderstand me, I would LOVE to see a "renaissance" of toy trains in this country. But I don't see it happening. NO ads on TV that I have seen from Lionel. Advertising in train magazines will reach guys like us, but not a young target audience. The last Lionel commercial I remember on TV was the old "Trains and Truckin" one with Johnny Cash. That was a LONG time ago. Sad [:(]

Dep

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Posted by chuck on Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:58 AM
You will never see a model railroad add on network or even cable TV.  The cost is too high.  I see local dealers occasionaly show off trains for the holidays in "targeted" cable adds.  The manufacturers/importers tend to rely of print adds and product placement.

Little kids love playing with Brio/Thomas and Lego sets.  I've seen too many cases where a child has shown an interest in model railroading and the parents have squashed it becuase they don't want to devote the space or the time for the hobby or no one in the family has the necessary basic skills to build a layout.  It used to be that kids learned basic skills like carpentry, elecricity, painting and basic mechanics.

Getting back to "Legacy", the current offering is only the first piece of a much larger puzzle.  The new command base and contoller allow access to additional features that are mostly in newer locomotives.  I give Lionel credit for a) keeping all of the old stuff still compatible and even allowing access to some features that were "buried" in some of the older equipment, b) allowing for upgrades to older modular based chassis, c) making an effort to "leave no train behind".

Will I buy it?  Yes.  Right away, maybe.  It's about the cost of a middle of line locomotive.  If you're going to wait for some fantastic price drop, you will be waiting a very long time.   The original TMCC stuff has been holding at $100-120 for the CAB-1/command base set since 1997.  DCS sets haven't changed price much in the last four years since it's introduction.
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Posted by Nick12DMC on Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:31 PM

"You will never see a model railroad add on network or even cable TV.  The cost is too high.  I see local dealers occasionaly show off trains for the holidays in "targeted" cable adds.  The manufacturers/importers tend to rely of print adds and product placement"

Guess your wrong on this one Chuck, My son was watching one of the cartoon channel's last night. I was just walking into the lounge and on comes a Hornby Trains TV add showing their new digital DCC system!

I guess Hornby are going all out for the kids market running a add on a pure cartoon channel.

My 8 year old son did pay attention to the add but his reponse was not quiet what Hornby would want to hear. "My train (Lionel) does all that and it has sound and smoke" Smile [:)]

Guess the other manufactures should try what Hornby are doing.

Nick

 

 

 

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Posted by Deputy on Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:41 PM

 chuck wrote:

Will I buy it?  Yes.  Right away, maybe.  It's about the cost of a middle of line locomotive.  If you're going to wait for some fantastic price drop, you will be waiting a very long time.   The original TMCC stuff has been holding at $100-120 for the CAB-1/command base set since 1997.  DCS sets haven't changed price much in the last four years since it's introduction.

Hmmmm...Lionel still advertises their CAB-1/command base at $148, I'd say $100-$120 is a pretty decent drop in price. I'm not looking for a fantastic price drop, but I'm not gonna get hosed down for the full retail just to be the "first on my block" with one. Considering I have NO locos that can make use of the new features, just doesn't make sense to buy it. Maybe later on when I have 4-5 locos with the Legacy features, and the price drops down from it's current level, I'll go for it. I just don't see enough features to make it worth $300 samolies. I'd rather save up a few more sheckles and get a top-of-the line loco from MTH. Smile [:)]

dep

 

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Posted by chuck on Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:29 PM
The Command Base/CAB-1 combo set has been listed at retail for the $129 level for several years and was discounted to $100 by most of the larger mail order sites.  The catalog price (aka MSRP) has climbed to $148 with a discounted price of around $110.  I believe the DCS pair lists for $300 and is discounted to $260.  Legacy has an MSRP of $300 and a mail order discount of $270.

Re adds.  I see adds for a Thomas set being run by Toys R'Us (a Tomy set) and I do see FisherPrice advertising GeoTrax sets.  I haven't seen a traditional trains set add in a few years,  closest we've seen in this area are some shots of trains set's in adds by Joe's Hobby Center, Doll Hospital and Toy Soldier Shop and Hansen's Ace Hardware store (all adds also featured other toys like remote control cars/planes).
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Posted by Deputy on Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:42 PM

Again...unless you are buying a TMCC II loco, what's the point??? $120 for TMCC which IS useable on current locos, or $250 for Legacy II which requires you also BUY a new loco to be able to use it's features fully...whatever they might be.

 

Ads...Target has ads for the Lionel train they are selling.

Dep

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Posted by nblum on Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:47 PM
".unless you are buying a TMCC II loco, what's the point???"

In the future, all Lionel locomotives, or most all, will have TMCC II, so I suppose if someone were planning on buying Lionel locos in the future, waiting and purchasing TMCC II rather than investing in TMCC I would make sense.  Since I've been using TMCC I for 10 years + and am in no hurry, I'm happy to let others be the pioneers and deal with any teething issues :)>.
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Posted by Deputy on Saturday, November 25, 2006 3:16 PM

 nblum wrote:


In the future, all Lionel locomotives, or most all, will have TMCC II, so I suppose if someone were planning on buying Lionel locos in the future, waiting and purchasing TMCC II rather than investing in TMCC I would make sense.  Since I've been using TMCC I for 10 years + and am in no hurry, I'm happy to let others be the pioneers and deal with any teething issues :)>.

Neil: Yep...keywords are "in the future". Since I have a mix of Lionel/MTH/Williams, with the majority being MTH, and I already have the components for TMCC I, not much sense in me moving up to TMCC II. I'm with you in the idea of letting someone else be the trailblazers with dealing with any teething problems that might arise. Wink [;)]

Dep

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:34 PM

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

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Posted by Joe Hohmann on Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:48 PM
 smokebox1 wrote:

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

 

From what I've read, no.

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Posted by chuck on Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:46 PM
"I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others....."

The original license is for the original system.  As an owner, you could swap out the receiver board for a legacy board when these become available. 
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Posted by Deputy on Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:59 PM
 Joe Hohmann wrote:
 smokebox1 wrote:

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

 

From what I've read, no.

WOW! There's a major marketing blunder! The current Atlas offerings have TMCC available. I can see them withholding the technology from MTH (who may already have it), but if they don't offer it to Atlas and other loco makers, well....that won't go over very well with the high end buyers. Way to go Lionel! Dunce [D)]

Dep

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Posted by chuck on Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:53 PM
OK, you just spent $2 mil and 4-5 years developing something new and you're going to license the technology to your competitors?  This is after you spent money making sure their hacks of your original system that were done outside of the original license agreement will work under the new system? 
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:15 AM

Hmmm, I guess just one more reason to go DCC........

 

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Posted by Deputy on Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:55 AM

 chuck wrote:
OK, you just spent $2 mil and 4-5 years developing something new and you're going to license the technology to your competitors?  This is after you spent money making sure their hacks of your original system that were done outside of the original license agreement will work under the new system? 

You are if you have any smarts and look into the future. They licensed their old system for use by other loco makers and Lionel didn't go under. Doing so encouraged people to buy TMCC-equipped locos and that means people also had to buy the components/system from Lionel to take advantage of it. Licensing the new suystem to competitors will ensure that the system is successful and has a long life span. And it will be an additional source of revenue for Lionel. Trying to keep technology secret and exclusive is just plain short-sighted and stoopid nowadays. Many computer companies allow their software to be open-ended and ENOCURAGE smaller companies to make add-ons and tweaks for the software. A perfect example is Microsoft Train Simulator. That program is still being used today, even though the original developers gave up on it YEARS ago. Second party software makers keep it alive by making add-ons for it. That's why MTH is so successful...they allow you to use BOTH DCS and TMCC within one system. I doubt very much that the limited offerings from Atlas are any threat to Lionel. But a technology alliance with Atlas and Williams would certainly give a boost to ALL THREE companies and would really put the squeeze on MTH...Lionel's only REAL competition. Then again...Lionel has a history of unwise business decisions. Restricting access to this would just be another in a long list of them.

Dep

Virginian Railroad

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