chuck wrote:Will I buy it? Yes. Right away, maybe. It's about the cost of a middle of line locomotive. If you're going to wait for some fantastic price drop, you will be waiting a very long time. The original TMCC stuff has been holding at $100-120 for the CAB-1/command base set since 1997. DCS sets haven't changed price much in the last four years since it's introduction.
Hmmmm...Lionel still advertises their CAB-1/command base at $148, I'd say $100-$120 is a pretty decent drop in price. I'm not looking for a fantastic price drop, but I'm not gonna get hosed down for the full retail just to be the "first on my block" with one. Considering I have NO locos that can make use of the new features, just doesn't make sense to buy it. Maybe later on when I have 4-5 locos with the Legacy features, and the price drops down from it's current level, I'll go for it. I just don't see enough features to make it worth $300 samolies. I'd rather save up a few more sheckles and get a top-of-the line loco from MTH.
dep
Virginian Railroad
"You will never see a model railroad add on network or even cable TV. The cost is too high. I see local dealers occasionaly show off trains for the holidays in "targeted" cable adds. The manufacturers/importers tend to rely of print adds and product placement"
Guess your wrong on this one Chuck, My son was watching one of the cartoon channel's last night. I was just walking into the lounge and on comes a Hornby Trains TV add showing their new digital DCC system!
I guess Hornby are going all out for the kids market running a add on a pure cartoon channel.
My 8 year old son did pay attention to the add but his reponse was not quiet what Hornby would want to hear. "My train (Lionel) does all that and it has sound and smoke"
Guess the other manufactures should try what Hornby are doing.
Nick
Well here's something cool-interesting. A local stationery/gift store has an elderly gent (good grief...elderly meaning he's MY age!!! ) that is having a toy train demonstration today. This is the 3rd Annual demonstration he has had, and the first one I'll get to attend. I can't really judge the affect on kids, since the majority of the population in my area is Hispanic and fairly poor. I suspect the majority of the people attending are going to be in my age bracket and most likely will be Caucasian. I called my Father-in-law and he is gonna meet me there. From what I have seen of the collection, we are talking about a LOT of postwar Lionel. Very cool!!!!
Only trackage in my area is Southern Pacific and ore mining tracks. And there is no trackage or activity near to me to make them very visible. Have to drive a considerable ways to see any trains in my area. One neat thing is the demo being put on today seems to be sponsored by a train club in my town. I guarantee I'll be looking into joining it!!
Please don't misunderstand me, I would LOVE to see a "renaissance" of toy trains in this country. But I don't see it happening. NO ads on TV that I have seen from Lionel. Advertising in train magazines will reach guys like us, but not a young target audience. The last Lionel commercial I remember on TV was the old "Trains and Truckin" one with Johnny Cash. That was a LONG time ago.
Dep
Hey Duputy, thanks for that thoughtful response. I mostly agree with you. But I do know there are kids who just seem more prone to having an interest today as it was years ago.
In my neck of the woods, trains are highly visable. The Norfolk Southern mainline runs along the main highway, runs through town and so trains are very visable. You can't go to Wal-Mart here without running the likely chance of seeing a real train go by.
I've been party to instances where I've gotten to see the interest from kids.Certainly not all kids, but definitely some. Those kids are the ones to be reached... along with the parents, who need to know about the hobby and that Lionel trains are still being made and not just something from the distant past. Even to this day, despite some the press Lionel has gotten (Neil Young's ownership and technology contributions, the bankruptcy, Polar Express, Lionel back in NYC, Lionel trains on the Soprano's, the History Channel specials etc) there are still many people who don't know the company is STILL in business. That seems to me to be the number one challenge: public awareness and advertising.
Kids haven't changed much through all these years. Though the world around them has changed a lot. I remember when I was a kid and many of my friends also had trains. And some of them lost interest due to space age toys, slot cars, etc. No doubt this would continue today too. What has changed for the 3-rail hobby is simple awareness and availabilty. It is certain that real trains are not as visable in many parts of the country. Just as it is certain Lionel trains don't have the visability they once had - though Jerry Calabrese is working to change that.
A couple weeks ago I was in a little antique shop where there's a guy who has a display of used Lionel trains. I like to pop in because his prices are more than fair and I can often pick up a train car for under $5. I got my nephew a couple of used decent condition Lionel postwar sheetmetal 027 swtiches for $4 each. Very fair price. Not a couple weeks ago, there was a family in there with a little boy and he was looking at the trains with me. He had all the bright eyed wonder of the world in his eyes - just as I probaby did years ago. His parents told me the kid was just nuts about trains. And once again I got the response that Lionel was no longer in business. Well, I corrected that false view and hopefully planted some seeds that are going to get that kid his first Lionel train set. That kid got real upset when they left: "I want to look at the trains!!" I kinda laughed to myself as I watched through the window of time of what I myself was probably like at that same age.
All Lionel needs to do is to reach the kids out there who already DO have an interst in trains. And the first job is letting the parents of those kids know Lionel is still around and making products aimed at them. For all my gripes about the seeming hi-tech, scale direction of the hobby and the lopsided product offerings in this direction, I will also be the first to admit that Lionel DOES make some very decent and affordale offerings for the beginner.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Brian: I don't dispute that there is an "initial fascination" with toy trains and kids when they first encounter each other. Mainly because they are so rarely seen nowadays (the trains, not the kids)...whether real or in toy versions. But I question the "staying power" of toy trains. A basic layout that goes in a figure 8 or oval might be nice initially, but even Lionel realized that toy trains have to DO something besides just going in a circle. That's why there were/are so many operating accessories. It's a fact that young mind's attention span is normally limited to about 15 minutes, unless they are truly INVOLVED in what's going on. Operating accessories, intricate controls like TMCC and DCS, and operating cars are what help KEEP that young mind involved. Of course, all of this is variable based on the age of the kid and what other things he is interested in.
I'll refrain from commenting on Neil Young, other than to say I don't care much for his music or his rather confused politics (seems like he's wearing John Kerry's flip-flops).
Neil (not Besougloff or Young): So it sounds like Lionel is playing "catchup" with MTH as far as their remote control system is concerned. Not sure the price justifies the tweaks they are giving. Guess I'll wait till it drops to 1/2 the current price
My feelings are solidly based upon what I have seen with my own eyes. For almost a decade I had a portable display layout that was decidedly affordable, very low-tech with no rope or no barrier. I went to smaller shows and seemingly out-of-the way events where kids were present. I watched first hand the reactions of the kids who not only seemed fascinated with the trains, but were just as amazed with my low-tech operation.
Young boys especially wanted to know how a piece of fish-line, some counter-weights and some springs could make something operate. Times have changed, but boys will be boys. Things are so push-button oriented today, and that's the only way I can explain the excitement of the kids for what I had done. They simply don't see this kind of thing as much today.
I have also first hand seen the excitement of kids who do have train sets. And I have seen them tell their friends. Granted, it may not be big numbers, but still I have seen it happen so I know it still can. Kids may not know what a steam engine is, true. But they still seem to be fascinated to watch one run. I've watched kids throw near tantrums because of having to leave my house and not get to play with the trains anymore. One mom recently sarcastically thanked me and told me now they were probably going to have to get their kid a Lionel train set. I laughed to myself and thought, well, there is still interest.
I agree Deputy, parental supervision is a good thing and as a society, we need more of it. My reference was strictly in terms of a train layout. I don't worry much about kids playing with a layout that has been geared to and built for kids. I thought of some of the things that could go wrong in advance, and made the layout with that in mind.
When I used to pick up a nephew from school, I would bring along the latest train catalog, and then watch him show it off to all his friends. I'd watch the kids fight to get close enough to see what all the excitement was about. I'd watch boys grab the catalog and run up to their parents to show them when they arrived to pick up their kids. So maybe my experiences are different. I'm not just content to say this is a hobby for us old farts when in fact I have seen first hand the interest and excitement from kids today - even without the high tech bells and whistles.
As far as my comments on Neil Young, I've loved the guy's music as long as I can remember and he has been without question my number one influence. Other musicians I've played with have joked I really got the "Neil thing" down tight. At a show I did years ago, some guy in the audience came up during an intermission and asked who was writing for who: was Neil writing for me or was I writing for him? I took that as the highest of compliments.
But Neil is just as opinionated and hot-blooded on this hobby as I am, even if it is on differing sides of the train track. His comments on Erol Gurgan (locolawyer) were promptly removed from his website, probably when cooler minds prevailed. I simply find it ironic that on one hand Neil is determinedly low-tech, non-digital and non-computer when it comes to the recording business despite the fact the record industry has been the total opposite for the past decade. Just as ironic as his support for small family farms via the Farm Aid concerts, which one could also argue are a thing of the past. I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. I just find it interesting that was one the leading single innovators for the high-tech trains of today, can be so old-fashioned on other topics.
Lionel must be feeling the heat about Legacy too. They haven't advertised in the train mags for almost 2 years, and yet there is a double page ad concerneing the new Legacy system in the current OGR magazine. It's possible maybe even Neil paid for the ad.... who knows. But either way, I doubt they would have put the advertisement there unless they felt like they needed to. Of course, the ad shows Neil with a ZW, and not a command base power unit... another small piece of irony. While the hobby moves on to the future in some respects, there is also an obvious connection to the way things once were.
As with anything in life, it is one thing to "hear" about something, and another to see it for yourself. I have personally seen the interest from kids in trains today and have seen that the trains don't necessarily have to be high-tech to spark that interest. I have spoken with thousands of parents over the course of a decade and have heard first hand their reactions to the hobby. I wish I could tell you that they were as excited about the high-tech trains as we are, but they are not - at least when it comes to retail pricing. (but there's also a "shock" factor and for someone with zero reference to the hobby, I can understand how some prices would seem high). And because I have seen the interest in the hobby from young kids and families for myself, this is why I feel the way I do.
Okay...so just WHAT ARE the advantages of this system over the old one that makes it worth spending a considerable amount of $$$ to get it???
RR Redneck wrote:I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.
Two years from now, you should still be able to buy one.
drbeck wrote:Have the old one and love it...can't wait for the new one...bugs (if any) and all I'm sure I'm going to love it as well...dirve on Lionel and Neil Young, "it's the technology stupid..."if it wan't for TMCC I would have never gotten into training...wiring blocks? are you kidding? The world runs on computers
Same as above. Love it and learned alot from it. I also have the MTH DCS system and is also great to use.
Can't wait for the new LEGACY system.
laz57
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
I don't know that I entirely agree with all you doom and gloom merchants about kids not liking trains. What kids like, in my experience as a parent and teacher, is novelty and hands on action amongst others and trains represent the first because they arent a commonplace anymore. Every kid thats seen mine or heard me talking about them, has had the same positive reaction - though my audience is very young being our daughter (4) and her school friends.
It came as a surprise to me because I thought trains were 'old hat' but thats just the thing of it, nowadays, they aren't! I entirely agree with Brianel about the TOY TRAIN aspect, Asherah's choices are for action accessories, we just bought that tipping gondola and she's going to wear it out, giggling herself silly as it fires all sorts of things into its little tray! I gave her a go with a TMCC handheld and she says she likes "the big box thing" better because "its better to use" which, as far as I can make out means she can operate the speed and direction controls at once which is essential trying to get that tipping car centred right over that tiny magnet.
I recall at about her age, what impressed me most about a big layout was the control panel with all its switches, buttons, knobs and lights - real futuristic! It looks exciting and important to be in control of something like that, whereas a handheld, is just like a TV remote, no big deal really. A decent train layout is fascinating because of its apparent complexity, lots of stuff to look at, things to do, for instance our daughter takes refilling the smoke unit real seriously, she insists on doing it and obviously gets off on the whole care and precision of counting the drops, making sure they go only in the hole and so forth.
She's better at centring the tipping car than I am! Takes it real seriously and has a very delicate driving touch. However, she won't play with the train itself at all unless I'm there to watch her do it and either give advice or compliment her. It makes her the center of attention THAT is the main attraction.
1688torpedo wrote:Chief- When you were at CTT I'm surprised you did not show them how to Run a Train & Catch a Bass with a Cab-1 Controller.Plus, How to Oil the Big Red Knob & to keep it from getting squeaky! Take Care.
YUZ GIZ are wrong. It is the DCS remote wheel I have to oil. Don't you remember the guy who bought DCS and could not get it hooked up right. Once everyone told him how, he finnally got it working but had problems with the wheel. He could not get the hang of it. So he posted he had oiled it to make it work smoother. Tom P then posted a picture of his big oil can and pretended to oil his DCS remote.
Jon
So many roads, so little time.
ChiefEagles wrote: Deputy wrote: At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it. Dep Check your catalog. Several new diesels come with it. I have a NS GP40-2 ordered and it has it. The only reason I am getting the II is because it comes with the Big Boy. I do not have a quality modern steamer so I went for the Big Boy.
Deputy wrote: At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it. Dep
At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it.
Check your catalog. Several new diesels come with it. I have a NS GP40-2 ordered and it has it. The only reason I am getting the II is because it comes with the Big Boy. I do not have a quality modern steamer so I went for the Big Boy.
I see an SD40-2 with the new setup. No GP40 though. New locos aren't of much interest to me so it's still not a motivator. Newest diesel in my setup is a GP-20. I'm interested in your feedback on the Big Boy. Can't really see myself buying one, but it is kinda cool.
Don
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
1688torpedo wrote:Hello All! CSXJohn- Your Tmcc Controller worked just fine after the Rotating Button was oiled & it sure makes a nice Fishing Reel as well!.
Keith, you must have remembered my picture I posted a couple of years ago.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I'm with Joe Hohmann on this. I have TMCC only because the CAB control came for free in one of my Lionel NYC sets. So I bought the command base for $70 and I can use either TMCC or DCS.At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it.
I see the "older/simpler is better" boys are back at it again Glad to see all those pics of KIDS using the TMCC controllers. If a kid can master the intricate movements of Playstation and all those other button-pushing gizmos, CAB-1 should be "child's play". I also find the "lamenting" of the O-Gauge change from a kid's toy to an adults toy pretty amusing. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT??? Toy trains were displaced back in the 1960s when slot car racing nearly put them out of business. There hasn't been a return to toy trains by anyone but us old farts since then. Most kids have no idea what a steam engine is and couldn't care less. They are more interested in "pimping their rides" than seeing a Berkshire chugging along on some weird 3-rail track. I would bet that if a kid got a toy train for Christmas he probably wouldn't tell his friends for fear of being made fun of. Sorry...but that's just the way it is. While we used to spend HOURS watching our trains going in a circle or oval around the Christmas tree, kids today would rather watch Pokey Man or SpongeBob something-or-other on the boob tube. It's the 21st Century guys. While there may be a very few exceptions to the rule, kids just DON'T CARE for toy trains. Enter us old geezers who HAVE the $$$$ for the expensive toy trains. Actually, we entered a long time ago. I will not deny that I LOVE to get my hands on the fancy, high detail, fully-equipped locos. SO WHAT!!! I have the $$$$ to spend and why should I want a detail-less stripped-down loco when I can get one that accurately portrays what the original does and looks like? Last night I plunked down a grand on a Lionel Pennsylvania 6-38082 2-8-8-2 Y-3 Steam engine. I can hardly wait for it to arrive. Would I let a neighborhood kid operate it? Probably. But ONLY under my supervision. Why can't we let kids sit and play with toy trains on their own? One reason is too many kids have watched or remember Gomez Addams crashing trains together. And what is wrong with PARENTAL SUPERVISION??? Seems to me that is something VERY LACKING in kids of today anyway.
The big point I make is that they are more than likely using it on Dad's layout or Grandpa's layout, NOT THEIR OWN layout.
Of course there's a big problem with "Their own layout" This Pennsy Freight Flyer for $200 is really an upgraded scout set. A parent isn't likely to buy junior a $1500 train set. Now as I look back on my own childhood, what I remember is my 2026 puffing away and my rotating beacon casting red and green lights on the wall.. Back in those days that was top toy technology.. It was thrilling, compared with what's available now. The kid is bored before he starts.
You hear collectors talk about a basic sets play value.. But what play value? You can take the barrels out of the gondola or turn the crank on the boom car? Fact is the train importers really need to rethink trains altogether if they want kids involved. Legacy's vibrator or five named speeds won't mean anything to children. And check whatever Big Box ads you find.. these sets are still being pushed at daddy not the kids.
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