NationWideLines,
Great information! Thanks for posting the photos of the Wide Gauge track trip. I have never seen one before. I would never have recognized it for what it is.
After reading George's post I took down my #4000 from the display shelf. It has been restored, and it is a place holder until I can find an original.
Here are a few more photos of the Automatic track reverse.
Once I realized what the automatic track reverse unit looked like, I tried to figure out how the track trips I had could be used on Wide Gauge Track. This is what I came up with:
The O Gauge trips will fit on the Wide Gauge track. The lower position will derail anything that runs over it if it is placed in the down position. The top position will work but in the down position it would cause a short. Both are clumsy. I suspected that there must be a different style of trip for Wide Gauge. I'm glad you cleared up the question. I will be on the look out for one of the Wide Gauge trips now.
Here is some information from Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge by Schuweiler. Its a chart from Chapter II Electric-Style Locomotives - page15.
You can see from the table that #4000, #4019, and #4039 all have this style of Automatic track reverse.
The chapter also gives information about Engine Construction and Details in 6 basic categories.
This is a quote from page 17
6. Miscellaneous
"....American Flyer stated that the new Wide Gauge locomotives had "patented automatic reverse." This feature...was a track trip that would mechanically move a lever which would in turn switch the polarity and reverse the locomotive. This feature was also used on top-of-the-line O Gauge locomotives. 4000, 4019 and 4039 have the track trip reverse,..."
The 1925 and 1926 catalogs both show the automatic track reverse. I will try to get some photos of the catalog pages.
Doing research on these PreWar trains is a lot of fun. Once again I have learned something new.
Enjoing the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
Be prepared to learn more!
Although you did a nice job showing the O gauge track trip reverse, the standard gauge track trip was of a different design.
Here are pictures of a standard gauge track trip reverse.
Here is a picture of it in a section of track. I believe the small part that is held on by a screw, should rotate and cause it to firmly attach to the track, when the screw is loosened and re-tightened.
The mechanism operates by sliding in and out by pushing or pulling on the post sticking up.
The reverse mechanism on the bottom of the locomotive is the lever that is to the right of the power pick up shown in the following photo. I do not know what engines this mechanism was used on. My engine is a green 4000 locomotive from about 1927 (it came in the early Trail Blazer set that featured caboose with 4000 plates, blue log car with 4000 plates, and medium green 4000 engine).
NWL
Well, I learn something new all the time in this hobby. George is right! There are Wide Gauge Box Cab Electric Locomotives that have an automatic track trip! After I did a little research I found out that #4000 (1925-1926), #4019 (1925-1927), and #4039 (1926) all have the automatic track reverse. They all use the same track trip that I posted above. I have a bit more research to do and I will post some photos.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Hello George welcome to the thread.
I don't think that I have seen a Wide Gauge engine that has a track trip reverse unit. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I cant remember seeing one. Could you post a photo of your engine?
There are track trip activated reverse units in the Narrow Gauge line as illustrated on the 3115 below.
This is what the trip looks like for the O gauge line
I will have to check my Wide Gauge engines more closely and see what I can find.
Northwoods Fyer
You have quite a collection!
I have about a dozen standard gauge engines and maybe 10 sets of passenger and freight cars including two wide gauge AF sets.
My AF# 4000 box cab engine has a reverse lever underneath that looks like iy can be activated by a track-trip.
Does anyone know anything about this device, and what it looks like, and if it is available anywhere?
I know that Lionel made a couple of different types of prewar track-tripes, but I have'nt been able to locate them either.
Thanks in advance for any information you can give me.
More York Finds
Although I did not find anything significant at the TCA show, I arrived in York on Monday and sold at one of the hotel shows. I found this within 5 minutes of arriving on Monday morning.
I was happy to find it at a reasonable price. It goes great with the following engine and tender.
Later on Monday, I spotted this junker while walking through the hotel show.
It did not run due to a stripped gear, was missing a boiler band, and half of the cow catcher was missing and had been replaced with a home-made resin piece. The exciting thing for me, was that the engine had all of its side rods, which are the difficult to find early two-piece side rods. I needed the side rods for an engine in a boxed set that was missing one set of rods.
A further bonus on the engine, was repairing it and making it run. I noted that one of the gears in the motor was stripped and would not allow it to run. I was not sure if I could make it run, but recalled taking apart an early engine a couple of years ago for a brake lever. I found the box of parts and found the gear and shaft that I needed to replace and proceeded to take apart the engine and replace it. Upon putting the motor back together, I was pleased to discover that it is a very strong running engine.
Track
Here is a York find! It accounts for $1 of the $2 I spent at the TCA show at the Fairgrounds.
This track section, with engine stop/flag dates to about 1916 and is something that one does not come across often. These were used to stop the engines, with the #15 and later #16 engines having a hook/lever that would catch on the special section and stop the engine.
The next items of track are things that I brought with me to York to consult others, as I had not seen these items previously and was trying to determine if they were pre-1910 Flyer items.
The cross over is a very interesting item, with the red piece at the center being a cast-iron item and the ties and rails of the remainder being soldered together.
I consulted with several people over the course of the last week and nobody could recall seeing a crossing like this. Several people told me that it was definitely american made, but that it was not Ives or American Miniature Rail Road items. One of these collectors indicated that he had consulted the American Miniature RR catalog and that the AMRR crossings have a lithographed center, with the company name lithographed in the item.
I finally showed it to a friend and he said believed it was American Flyer track. After arriving home last evening, I consulted my reproduction c. 1909 American Flyer catalog and sure enough, it appears that the above crossing is a pre-1910 American Flyer crossing. The catalog artwork clearly shows the "U" shaped raised sections on the center piece, like the above item has.
Discovering that the above crossing is an American Flyer item leads me to the conclusion that the straight and curve track sections that came with the crossing are also pre-1910 American Flyer. I base this on the fact that the ties match the crossing and that the method and design of soldering the track to the ties matches the crossing.
To me, the discovery of pre-1910 Flyer track is exciting, as until recently, I was not sure what pre-1914 American Flyer track looked like. I recently purchased a c. 1910 American Flyer setbox that came with a loop of track that comprised 6 curves and 2 straights. The 6 curves had ties that were connected to the rails by having a large tab bent up around the lower portion of the track (similar to the end ties on the c. 1916 engine stop shown above). However, the straights that were in the box had ties soldered to the rails, like the above track.
Knowing that early track typically featured rails that were soldered to the ties, I thought that possibly the track in the box represented production crossover, where they had some early straights that were boxed with the curves. However, I was not sure. I did note that the track matched some other straights, the above curve, and the crossover that I had. Although I suspected it could be Flyer, I wanted other opinions.
Now that I have been able to match the artwork of the crossing section to the item I have, it is easier to attribute this as pre-1910 Flyer track.
That is a great find. The paint looks to be in excellent condition! I actually do not have a 1201 with the headlight. I have a roof mounted headlight on a 1211 boxcab, but not on the 1201.
Here are some additional variations of the 1201.
The hardest variation to find is the one that uses decal lettering instead of rubberstamped letters. This appears to be the earliest of the 1201 engines and the best guess is that Flyer decided it was either too expensive to use decals or was easier to rubberstamp the engines. I have only seen a couple of these decaled engines (including a 1218 that was factory overpainted, over the decals)
Here is another early 1201. You can tell the early engines by the style and number of power pickups on the motor and the style of the wheels. The earliest motors had a single power pick up mounted on a long brass tab. The next power pick up (like the one on this motor) is a single pick up mounted on a stronger steel arm that is mounted more to the center of the motor. I mentioned the wheels are different, and you can see that the wheels on this motor have 8 spokes and do not have the steel tire around the flange. Flyer used this style wheel into early 1922, prior to switching to the 10-spoke wheels with the steel tire. I state this due to observed variations of the earliest 3020 engines.
The next variation is also an unusual one. Not sure why, but this engine never had handrails installed. This is evidenced by the mounting holes for the handrails being filled with paint. It also never recieved a pantograph.
This example also features an unusual motor variation that was very short-lived (I believe 1922 only, but do not recall the year). It features brushes that are contained wholly inside of the frame and a separate cylinder from the armature that the brushes make contact with.
Lastly, you mention the green variation for the 1201. I do not have one. I have both a 1218 and a 1217 in the following dark green color. I suspect that the green variation of the 1201 would be this dark green color.
I realize the above photo makes the engine look more of a black color, but in reality it is a very dark green color.
#1201 Steeple Cab Locomotive
American Flyer cataloged this engine from 1920 through 1924.
This is a relatively no frills locomotive. It has no headlight and very little brass or other adornments other than red paint on the windows and rubber stamping on either side of the center door, and the number on both ends.
According to Schuweiler some #1201s were modified at the factory by adding sheetmetal headlights in an effort to use up shells.
I finally added the #1201 with the sheet metal headlight to the collection. I got it from one of the contributors to the thread.
While it has had some paint touch up, I am fairly confident that it is an original #1201.
My two examples also illustrate the two types of handrails used on Steeple Cabs.
Schuweiler lists a green variation of this locomotive. I guess its time to start hunting for that engine.
Thanks for the information. I looked and looked and only found pictures with an empty bunker but wanted to make sure that i was not mssing something and I knew the correct answer could be found here.
The 1121 tenders either had a smooth roof, ie no visible coal load, or a cutout in the roof with an empty bunker. There was never a coal load in these tenders.
This a bit off topic but does anyone have a picture to post of a AF 1121 black tender with it's coal load intact ? If so please post. Thanks.
Northwoods.
That is a great find! I had not seen the wooden bulb containers with the late labels on them. Those blue labels date to 1928 or after. I have a couple of cardboard boxes for bulbs, where each box holds 3 or 6 bulbs.
I was out of town recently and stopped in a hobby shop to see if they might have any American Flyer in their inventory. To my surprise there were two orphans just waiting for someone to take them to a new home.
They are both made out of wood, and slightly different in size. Only one had the full label.
They each contained a tear drop bulb, which I suspect are not the original bulbs that they contained. The real surprise was that each one still contained the original tissue paper that cushioned the bulbs.
Back on page 51 NationWideLines has a post about some bulb boxes that he ran across.
http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/116423.aspx?page=51
I have to admit to being a box crazed nut and these are simply classic!
The smaller two are clearly labeled American Flyer and I suspect the larger two, although not labeled American Flyer, will correspond to Flyer numbers if researched a bit more.
You asked me privately what the signal in the right of the last photo above was. It is a 2018 block signal from 1925-1926.
Mine unfortunately has been repainted once, due to chipping paint. I had to clean this item and there was even more paint loss to the item during the cleaning process. It was unfortunate, but it was so dirty. It was during the cleaning that I noted the repainting of the item, as the paint at the top of the mast is still original.
A few months ago I posted pictures of a white 2012 and then Northwoods posted pictures of his white 2012. I need to update this, as I recently acquired another white 2012, this one in its original box.
This item is in superb condition and comes with a cast finial on top, which is different from the earlier pictures that have been posted. I looked at the first 2012 that Iposted pictures of and it appears that semaphore did have a finial on it at one time.
In researching the 2012, the greenberg's guide indicates that the cast finials came on the 2012's beginning in 1928. Although I suspected that these 2012's were early items, the fact that this one came with a finial and a box that would date it to 1928, it appears that I gessed wrong on when these items were produced.
LL675 this showed up this week. I've seen the 3707 called a Sand Car and a Gondola. Which is correct?
this showed up this week. I've seen the 3707 called a Sand Car and a Gondola. Which is correct?
The 3207 car was referred to by American Flyer as a Sand Car. That style of car is commonly referred to as a gondola.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
NationwideLines;
That is a spectacular example of the Major Leaguer. Congratulations on a fantasitc addition to your collection.
Mersenne6,
I went back and read your post on page 6 and the following pages about "Electrifying Steam" There is a lot of great information in those entries. Thanks for posting them. It seems like yesterday and it is already 9 years ago. Yikes!
I thought I would post some photos of both sets from 1937 to go with the sets from 1936. Here are sets #1715 Pennsylvania Passenger, and #1716 Pennsylvania Freight:
NWL - it is nice to see that there are at least 2 #3198's like yours in existence.
Back in 2008 on the current page 6 of this thread I noted the following concerning #3190
The engine came as either a 2-4-0 or a 0-4-0 without any reverse, with a manual reverse or with a remote control reverse. Identification numbers for the engine were rubber stamped on the underside of the pilot.
The numbers for the various combinations I've seen are
3190 R/C - 2-4-0 - remote control
3190 M/C - 2-4-0 - manual reverse
3180 - 0-4-0 no reverse
3180 R/C - 0-4-0 - remote control
3180 R/C - 2-4-0 - remote control
There is also a hybrid that isn't part of the above number sequence. Some of the Iron Duke sets in from 1931 came with a 3190 casting with an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement and a manual reverse identical to the #3197. The ID number on the underside of the pilot is #3198. This means there are two different AF engines identified as #3198.
That Iron Duke set had an 8 wheel tender just like yours. The set, I'm sorry to say, was in terrible shape. I ran into it at York back in the late 1990's and took notes on the set in the hopes that someday I would find one like it in excellent condition - I'm still looking.
What makes your set even more interesting is the valve gear on the engine. It's the all diecast rods version which my research led me to believe was rather quickly replaced first with a sheet metal connecting rod between the drivers and a diecast piston rod and then with a full sheet metal set for both connecting and piston rods. The engine in the set I saw way back when didn't have any remaining components of the rod assembly.
Again - that is a real gem congratulations!
Nationwidelines Catalogs - Comparisons - Tips Original catalogs are a great source of information, but they have to be studied carefully, as they can be misleading. An old-timer pointed the following tips out to me several years ago and I am sharing this information here. So the tip from the old-timer was: "Don't rely only on the pictures and know what subtle differences in the text description really mean" My own tip is: "Expect variations in cataloged sets due to product transition and normal variances in production" To illustrate this point, I offer the following two descriptions of the Major Leaguer set, the first from the 1930 catalog and the second from the 1931 catalog. 1930 1931 While one might think that the two sets are identical between the different years, in reality the only thing that is identical between the two years is the artwork shown in the catalog. Actual differences between the two years are detailed in the descriptions are are quite stark in comparison. First, the 1930 set comes with a 3193 engine and tender combination, which is a 3197 engine and associated tender and is the engine and tender that would match the artwork shown in the catalog. However, in reading the description for the 1931 set, you will note that the 1931 set comes with a 3188 engine and tender combination, which would be a 3198 engine and 3189 tender. Therefore, the catalog artwork for 1931 does not show the engine that comes with the actual set. The second and more subtle difference between the descriptions for 1930 and 1931 are the descriptions of the cars. In 1930, the description indicates "...double truck construction with beautiful coloring and individual brass trim including hand rails, journal boxes, brake wheels, and ladders. The trucks of the cars and also the roofs of the baggage car and caboose are finished in bright enamels." The 1931 car description is entirely different and indicates "...of double truck construction with beautiful enamel colorings and brass trim." What the old timer pointed out to me in the catalogs was that in 1930 the lithographed 6 inch cars are described as having beautiful colors and brass trim. Prior to 1930, the lithographed cars are not described as having brass trim. In 1931, although the catalog shows the 1930 artwork, the cars are described as having enamel coloring, which differs from the 1930 description of the cars having enamel trucks and roofs. My own tip of expect differences in cataloged sets due to normal production variances, gets into the transitional nature of production. For instance, could a Major Leaguer set exist with the lithographed cars and the 3184 engine tender combination? NWL
Catalogs - Comparisons - Tips
Original catalogs are a great source of information, but they have to be studied carefully, as they can be misleading. An old-timer pointed the following tips out to me several years ago and I am sharing this information here.
So the tip from the old-timer was:
"Don't rely only on the pictures and know what subtle differences in the text description really mean"
My own tip is: "Expect variations in cataloged sets due to product transition and normal variances in production"
To illustrate this point, I offer the following two descriptions of the Major Leaguer set, the first from the 1930 catalog and the second from the 1931 catalog.
1930
Major Leaguer - 1931
I was able to purchase a very spectacular Major Leaguer set from 1931 today from a private party. I knew of the pending purchase when I profiled these sets in my previous post.
What I was not expecting to find is an apparent production variation. I say this based on the information provided in the Greenberg's Guide and the 1931 catalog versus what I recieved. Per the 1931 catalog the set comes with an engine tender combination 3188, which is comprised of a 3198 locomotive (type IV casting) and 4 wheel tender.
So far everything appears normal.....But wait! I have a 3198 type V locomotive with an 8 wheel tender! The Type V engine is noted as having a modified Type IV casting, which features a brass window insert and a longer pilot, with the numbers being 3180 and 3190, not 3198. These engines also came in engine tender combinations numbered 3184 and 3191, not 3188.
In fact, the Greenberg's guide does not describe the 3198 engine as coming with a Type V casting...yet here it is!
If it were not for the spectacular condition of the engine/tender and master carton, I would suspect that someone put these items together. However, since the set came to me as a complete Major Leaguer set and I know its history / owner for the last 20 years and know the former owner acquired it the same as I received it, it appears correct to me.
Also the oddity of the spectacular condition and 3198 being rubber stamped on the pilot of a Type V casting, lends to the credibility of the engine/tender set.
Here are the rest of the components of the set.
The 1937 artwork for those sets are interesting, as the sets shown are from the 1936 catalog, but the engine at the top of the page is the correct artwork for 1937.
NWL,
Thanks for the tips. American Flyer's inaccuracies in their catalogs make the hunt for equipment from each year, and identifying the time frame for when production changes occured a real challenge.
Set #1715 Pennsylvania Passenger 1937
Recently I finally picked up the final pieces to complete this set for the collection. I have had the accompanying freight set all my life. In fact, the freight set was a part of the family trains that I inherited and was actually a part of the family before I was.
The catalog photo above from 1937 is another good example of the art work in the catalog not matching what was actually available. The catalog artwork is from 1936 when the Type XXI Pennyslvania engine was introduced in black, heading both the freight and passenger sets.
In 1937 it was changed to grey and had a leading truck added. This is the engine as it appears in the 1937 catalog with the photo added at the top of the page.
And here it is matched up with the 2- #3176 Pullman passenger cars and the #3177 Observation. While not obvious in the photo the roofs of the passenger cars are a slightly darker shade of red.
I do not have a boxed green one, but I do have a green one. There is one thing about your green signal that makes me think it is a marriage, other than the missing ladder.
My green signal is all green, no blue base.
Going to be at the Rocky Mountain Train Show in the morning! Going to be in the upper 60s in Denver tomorrow!
2015/4015 Automatic Semaphore with Light
I have two examples of this semaphore. This is another example of American Flyer marketing the same accessory for their wide and narrow gauge lines. 2015 came with a piece of narrow gauge track and the 4015 came with a wide gauge piece of track.
This version is described in Schuweiler's book under the 2015 listing. (Circa 1928-1929)
This version isn't described but it is shown in the photo section of signals. (Circa 1928-1929)
My example is missing a ladder and it is in pretty tough shape. It makes me suspect that someone has married two signals to get this version.
Has anyone seen a boxed example of the green version? NationWideLines?
From the photos, your white semaphore certainly looks correct. I believe that the base on mine is also not shiny white like the top.
I happened to be going through one of those forgotten boxes under my layout the other day. (Am I the only one who has some of those? ) I came across a #2012 in white like the one that NationWideLines posted a few pages back. I am suspicious that mine may actually be a repaint.
I checked the bottom of mine and it isn't white.
NWL,could you check the bottom of your white #2012 to see if its white?
I have a green version of the #2012 too.
I compared the bottoms of the two semaphores and the colors are not the same. Did American Flyer paint some of their green semaphores white when they were experimenting with the white color?
I notice that your green example has a brass top and your white version does not. Mine are the same way.
I am reposting Nationwidelines' original post for reference.
Nationwidelines I am not sure if a photo of this has been posted here before or not. I thought that I had posted a picture of this, but in looking through my stored photos, I did not find a copy of it. Anyway, here is a variation of a 2012 manual sempahore. I took the photo on the layout as my standard white background would not have worked too well on this. Here is another, more common variation of the 2012. I suspect there might be a variation of this in orange too, but do not have a ready photograph. NWL
I am not sure if a photo of this has been posted here before or not. I thought that I had posted a picture of this, but in looking through my stored photos, I did not find a copy of it. Anyway, here is a variation of a 2012 manual sempahore.
I took the photo on the layout as my standard white background would not have worked too well on this. Here is another, more common variation of the 2012.
I suspect there might be a variation of this in orange too, but do not have a ready photograph.
strains,
I remenber reading an article that listed what years each of the "Millions of Satisfied Customers" numbers were used. I've looked for that information several times but haven't been able to remember where I originally saw it. I think it was in one of the copies of "The Collector". I keep telling myself that "when I have some time" I will work my way through my copies of that publication to see if I can find it. It could possibly have been an article available in one of the issues of the TCA quarterly but I don't think I was a subscriber at the time I read it.
As far as your mystery box is concerned; If I remember correctly anything that had a 7xxx number was an uncataloged set that was put together for a store account. Beyond that I can't provide any additional information. Nice find. It looks like the box is in great shape. I hope you find out what the original contents were. Are you going to try to find the original pieces for the set it contained?
Northwoods-Flyer
strainst,
Thanks for posting. I sent you an email.
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