Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

Over

3/4 Million

Happy Views

 

I have reached a stage in life where milestones are worth observing.  So, I have borrowed a little bit of advertising hyperbole from American Flyer's early years to mark a milestone. Flyer advertised the number of Happy Owners on some of their trains and in their advertising.

As the number of Happy Owners increased and the brass tags marked the growth, Flyer was creating variations just by changing the tags.

Today the number of views on the thread passed 750,000.  I never imagined that this thread would last this long or have as many contributors as it has, or have loyal readers who ask questions and share their own fascinating finds. Thank You to every one of you. It has taken less than 10 years.  I hope that you will say on the ride on the way to 1 Million 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

I have seen boxes marked "Sample" before, but cannot give any insight into the reasoning behind this marking.  I somehow doubt that it implies Salesman Sample items.

I think what is most unusual about your car is the alligatoring of the paint.  Typically enamel painted items do not alligator.  If the paint is extra thick, which your paint appears to be, it may cause alligatoring.  Possibly your item was some sort of paint sample, which would cause the "Sample" marking on the box.  I have one enamel painted item in my collection and that comes from the fact that it is a factory repainted item that was originally lithographed and the lithograph alligatored under the paint.

As for the 3281 plate instead of the 3381 plate, this is relatively common on the later cars, when Flyer was running low on plates.  I have an identical 3281 Jeffersonian marked car.  I think it would be more unusual if it actually had 3381 plates on it.

I just purchased a set of these cars that dates to c. 1931 and one of the cars has 3280 series plates and the others have the 3380 series plates.  I am planning on posting photos of them later today or tomorrow, after they are delivered. 

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Sample

Recently there were two interesting sets of 11" Ambassador cars up for auction on ebay.  They appeared within a few weeks of each other.  Both sets came in their original boxes - which were the real intriguing items. 

Or I should say what was stamped on each box was intriguing.

The cars in each set were auctioned separately.  I was only able to win one of the cars.

The interior of the box has the red paint from the car on it. 

The paint on the car has alligatored, but it has not cracked down to the metal.

As with many of these cars, the box and the air tanks are numbered correctly for the cataloged number - 3381. The brass tags on the car itself are incorrect.  They actually belong to the 9 1/2" car - 3281.

Neither seller gave any history for the sets.  I wonder if they were salesman's samples.  I wish that I had been able to win the other cars in the set. For now this car is another piece in the collection that has a story that I wish it could tell.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

I hit a milestone recently, as I added the last variation of lithographed boxcab electric engines I was missing to the collection.  Per Greenberg's, this is a 1926 only version that has the cast pantograph/light on each end of the roof. 

 

Oddly enough, I have a similar version that is factory black painted over a lithograph body (as evidenced by the chips in the black paint that show the litho underneath)

 

Personally, I think the most difficult lithographed engine to find is the Empire Express 1196, which is c. 1927

I have only seen 2 or 3 of these engines in my 35+ years of collecting.

 

NWL

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Nationwidelines and mersenne6,

Thanks for your great entries and photos.  Summer may be a slow time here on the thread and for the train collecting hobby in general, but it is obvious that you two have been busy doing research.  

NWL,

I enjoy hearing the stories about the early movers and shakers in the toy train industry.  Thanks for putting together the information on William Metzel. Nice catch on the 3103/3110 too.

mersenne6,

I only have one example of the tin Hiawatha from a passenger set.

 

 

I think its one of the typical examples.

It does have one of the mechanical whistles.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Nationwidelines and mersenne6,

Thanks for your great entries and photos.  Summer may be a slow time here on the thread and for the train collecting hobby in general, but it is obvious that you two have been busy doing research.  

NWL,

I enjoy hearing the stories about the early movers and shakers in the toy train industry.  Thanks for putting together the information on William Metzel. Nice catch on the 3103/3110 too.

mersenne6,

I only have one example of the tin Hiawatha from a passenger set.

 

 

I think its one of the typical examples.

It does have one of the mechanical whistles.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

Nationwidelines

 

Nationwidelines

 

Otis B. Drinkwater

I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal"

 

Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com

 

" 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)"

 

I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found

 

I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street.

 

So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. 

I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue.

O.

 

 

 

 

 

Time to update the above post, as I researched and found more information.

The earliest reference that I could find was in a Michigan Alumni reference from 1899.  It listed Jay Edmonds as either an 1895 or 1896 graduate, who worked for a metal company in Chicago for 2 years after graduation and forming a business with W. E. Metzel the prior year (1898).

 

Next reference was for Edmonds and Metzel inventing the perpetual bicycle pedal in 1899.

 

In the 1899-1900 Annual Report of the Factory Inspector, I found a listing for Edmonds, Metzel, and Cole MFG at 253-255 South Canal Street.  Indicates that the business was inspected March 4, 1900. 

 

The same report from 1900-1901 lists same company name and address.

 

I then found a reference in The Iron Age publication of May 23, 1901 that lists a name change to remove Cole.

 

The Iron Age of November 28, 1901 shows an advertisement for the bank they produced and lists an address of 778-784 West Lake Street.

 

The Inland Printer of November 1902 on Page 284 advertises a Multiplex Press Punch for punching holes in paper.  The advertisement indicates that the item is patented and lists the West Lake Street address again.

 

The Engineering Magazine, Volume 24 indicates that Mr. A. R. Sheppard is announced as Secretary and Treasurer of Edmonds Metzel.  Not sure of the exact date of this, but it appears to be sometime in the 1901-1903 era.

 

Modern Machinery from February 1904 indicates that Edmonds Metzel announced they were moving from Lake Street to 159 S. Jefferson Street. 

 

The move was again announced in The Metal Industry, Page 64 from April 1904, where it was announced the new address was 159 South Jefferson Street.

 

The American Machinist of January 28, 1904, Vol 27, page 14, advertises Edmonds Metzel MFG "We manufacture on contract all kinds of hardware and electrical specialties, dies, tools, stamping, and experimental work"  There was no address listed for the company in this address.

 

After that the trail goes a bit cold.  I could not specifically nail down when the company moved to the Wilcox Avenue/Street location.  It could be that the move was when Mr. Coleman took control of the company. 

 

NWL

 

 

 

 

 

A bit more about Edmonds Metzel.

After my latest posting, a friend asked me if I knew what happened to William E. Metzel.  He indicated that he knew of Jay Edmonds going on to a successful career in the industry after exiting Edmonds Metzel MFG.

I am not positive that this is the same William E. Metzel, but the facts seem to correlate.  In early 1907, a William E. Metzel is listed as one of the founders of the Indestructible Steel Wheel Corporation, which built a plant in Lebanon, Indiana.  He is listed as the Vice President.  I find listings for him being associated with the company as late as November 1908.

I then found a death notice for a William E. Metzel of 1438 Windsor Avenue in the Tuesday March 30, 1909 Chicago Tribune.  From what I could gather, as I was not reading the entire story without paying, William E. Metzel was stricken with heart failure at his residence at 1438 Winsor Avenue the prior Thursday and died on Sunday at the Kenilworth Sanitarium.  He was 35 years old and had been married to Mabel (Best) Metzel for 9 months.

In the "Mutual Interests" (seemingly an insurance publication) June 1909 edition I found a note for a death claim (insurance claim) for William E. Metzel, who was listed as a manufacturer from Chicago.  The claim amount was for $2,500.

So it would seem that the Mr. Metzel died shortly after his exit from Edmonds Metzel MFG.

 

NWL

 

 

This seems to correlate with the above facts.  The following headstone is found somewhere within the Rosehill Cemetery, Chicago, IL

[mersenne6]

A Variation of #630 - the tinplate Hiawatha

   I purchased a nice tinplate Hiawatha passenger set awhile back and, at the time I noted the tin stamped superstructure of the locomotive was not parallel to the drivers. I assumed the motor had just been incorrectly installed.  However, when I turned over the engine and started looking at how it was held in place I realized the motor mounts are different from others I’ve seen and the motor itself has electrical reverse – something I’ve never seen on a #630.

The side view of this engine shows screws in the forward holes where one usually sees rivets and there are no paint abrasions to the rear holes where one would usually find screws for securing the rear mounting brackets. Figure 1 is a side shot comparison of this engine (left) and a regular #630 (right).

 

Figure 1

 

  Instead of the usual riveted in place sheet metal brackets an examination of the underside of this engine reveals only a stamped U shaped bracket which, at the bottom part of the U, has two sheet metal bends (actually just two rectangular ears) which fit around the front sheet metal of the motor frame. A single screw on one side of the bracket threads into the motor frame and two other screws attach the bracket to the front part of the sheet metal superstructure. The shape and mounting of the bracket is such that if any of the screws work loose the bracket will shift and the front part of the engine shell will droop - which is the condition in which I received this engine. 

  A comparison of the usual motor mount brackets (Figure 2)of #630 (right) and the motor mounts of this engine ( left) suggests the reason for the change is the existence of the automatic reverse since that unit would not have cleared the rear motor mount bracket.

 Figure 2

 In addition to the bracket the engine has a front mounted lead weight and a headlight bracket held in place by a single screw which is accessible through the shell smoke stack. 

 Figure 3

 

  The light bracket is vertical which means the headlight does not protrude from the front of the engine but is completely inside the shell.  Its position makes it almost impossible to replace the light without unscrewing the entire bracket from the engine shell. (In a side discussion about this engine Nationwidelines indicated he has seen other 630 engines with this kind of light bracket.)

[LL675]

beautiful engines!

[Nationwidelines]

Resurrection!  This thread went for a month with no posts, what is wrong? 

I came across an oddity recently and had to purchase it. 

The following picture shows a common 3103, which features the 3103 number plates on the site and the cast iron cow catchers mounted to the frame.

Next up is the still somewhat easily found red 3110.  This engine uses the same cab, features 4 American Flyer brass plates, and a steel frame that is rubberstamped 3110 on the bottom.

 

Lastly is the unusual version that I found.  Red 3110 mounted on a 3103 type frame with cast iron pilots.  Could this be something that someone modified at home?  At first glance one might think so, but the bottom of the frame is rubber stamped 3110 and Sold as Shopworn, so this is definitely a factory piece.

NWL

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jdet1]

Looks like the remains of a 390 Whistling Baggage car.  I did come in grey and blue.

[Northwoods Flyer]

LL675

Got this car in the deal too, would it have gone with the Royal?

It's had a repaint, but it looks like it was a dark grey? under neath.

The Royal Blue does have a baggage car.  Its the #494

It also had a #490 Whistling Baggage Car in Blue

The #490 also came as a separate sale item in grey.  It looks like you have the body and the frame for a #490 in grey.

Port Lines is a good source for parts.  Does Jeff Kane handle some Flyer too?  

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[LL675]

thanks Swede

[rrswede]

I don't know who Greg might suggest but I have found Port Lines Hobby Supply to be very helpful.

Port Lines Hobby Supply    6 Storeybrooke Drive    Newburyport, MA 01950-3408    978-465-8798 Phone/Fax

swede

[LL675]

Thanks Greg. Jeff Kane is my guy for Lionel, who do you like for Flyer?

Got this car in the deal too, would it have gone with the Royal?

It's had a repaint, but it looks like it was a dark grey? under neath.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Nice find Dave.  You are on your way to a great Pre War collection.  The parts are not that difficult to find.

Before you know it you will have the whole passenger set.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[LL675]

this was in a box of train parts I bought off a buddy. Missing some parts, and needs some TLC.

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

Great information to keep us interested in trains during the dog days of summer!

Your comment on not seeing many examples of the enameled blue bird sets made me think.  To be honest, I have never come across a boxed enamel blue bird set.  I have seen several examples of boxed lithographed blue bird sets and have both a 1927 and 1928-29 (not sure which year my set is) versions.  I would suspect tha possibly due to the ongoing depression of 1930s, that there are fewer of these sets out there than the lithographed versions, but that is just a guess on my part.

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

I posted this back on page 52, but I thought I would post it here again to keep the Blubird information together.

The New Bluebird 1930 Set #1382      (1931 - 1932 the same set is  known as The Blue Bird)

In 1930 Flyer recycled the name in The New Bluebird. 

It is an enameled version that pretty much uses the same engine and cars as The Frontenac.

In the 1931 and 1932 catalogs it becomes The Bluebird. (I guess with time its loses its "new" status.) The set came with a number of accessories, making for great play value.  This is the catalog page from 1927 showing the accessories included with the lithographed set.

 

I haven't seen very many examples of this set.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

The Bluebirds of Happiness

The Bluebird is one of my sentimental favorites. The set on the top is one of the sets that I inherited from my family.  It was a part of the family before I was.  Its wheels were deteriorated even when I was a child so it wobbled crazily down the track. My Dad referred to it as the "Toonerville Trolley"

It obviously looks nothing like the Toonerville Trolley but the name stuck in our family lore.

The Bluebird appeared in the American Flyer Catalog from 1927 through 1929. 

The set on the bottom is from 1927 and was headed by the #3013, the cars came without journals. The set on the top is what the Bluebird looked like in 1928 - 1929. In those years it was headed by the #3113.  The cars came with journals.

 

The two engines differ in the placement of the headlight and the number of identifying tags. The #3113 also has a trackside reverse.

A comparison of the cars:

The roofs on the family set from 1928 -1929 have flaked badly over the years, and unfortunately I displayed the set where it was in direct sunlight, and one side of the cars and engine is badly faded .

The roofs on the set from 1927 have been repainted. I have looked for this variation of cars for a long time and decided to add them to the collection anyway.  The color is not quite right, but someday I will repaint them in a better color.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[LL675]

Northwoods Flyer

425 Steam Locomotive

I finally got around to finding my #425 as I promised Zephyrfan.

The #425 is a Type XVI die-cast engine. It was cataloged from 1939 through 1940. It was paired with the #426 Type VI semi-Vanderbilt tender, in the Locomotive - Tender Combination #427.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

beautiful locomotive!

[Northwoods Flyer]

425 Steam Locomotive

I finally got around to finding my #425 as I promised Zephyrfan.

The #425 is a Type XVI die-cast engine. It was cataloged from 1939 through 1940. It was paired with the #426 Type VI semi-Vanderbilt tender, in the Locomotive - Tender Combination #427.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Zepherfan]

Hello Northwoods- like many other readers here, I found the site while searching for specific information about an American Flyer piece a couple of years ago.

     At the time, I had a four unit set of the small aluminum bodied Zephyr that I had refurbished. It is my avatar picture. But as you have said many times in your posts, you can't stop with just one pre-war train!

     Since that time, I redid another two, three unit Zephyr sets that I bought as individual pieces, often in horrible condition. Kind of got hooked on the simple, avante garde styling and construction of the trains. I suppose die hard collectors would be horrified at my additions of extra handrails and window glazing on the engineer's compartment, and extra decals on each car, as well as polishing the cars back to near new condition.  But you can never get the nicks and dents out that testify to the years of enjoyment that they brought to so many kids.

     Then, while waiting for parts for a Zephyr engine, came across a 2-4-2 #420 steamer and  tender with curly Q couplers that looked to be in decent shape. Someone had rewheeled it, but I had to get the drive rods back in synch, and redo the reverse unit drum and fingers.

     Then came along this 2-6-4 #425 steamer and its die-cast semi Vanderbilt tender with curly Q couplers. Loved that tender!The engine had been gutted of headlight socket and bracket, and the reverse unit. It had been painted black over its' brass handrails and steam/ sand domes, as well as the decals. And one corner of the cab roof had been broken off. Also needed new lead and trailing truck wheels.

    But it is coming along as time away from yard work allows. Have stripped what paint was left off the tender, primed and repainted it, and now waiting for decals. Engine is stripped and primed,and working at building the cab roof back up to correct shape and contour. Just needed to know if a weight was required, and NationWide was kind enough to give me that information.  

      Will keep checking in for new posts, and/or reread old, as this "museum" site is the best!!

    

      

[Northwoods Flyer]

Zepherfan;

to the thread.  I see that NationWideLines answered your question.  I hope you found some other information that was useful as you have read through the thread. It has been the work of many people.

This is the example that I have of the #425 engine. (Ooops!  This is the #423 - my mistake.  I will have to find my #425 and take a photo of it.) A previous owner did some modifications to it, but I think it is still a pretty good representation.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Zepherfan]

Nationwidelines

 

 

Zepherfan

Could someone tell me if a 425 steam engine should have a weight in the front of the boiler casting? Someone had removed the headlight socket and bracket, as well as the reverse unit. Have been locating junker parts for a restoration, but am at a loss as to whether I need a weight too. Thanks for any advice on this!

 

 

 

 

 

There is no weight in the front of the 425.

 

NWL

 

      Many thanks for that information! I had re-read almost all the previous posts but was unable to find anything about a weight. 

      

      

[Zepherfan]

Nationwidelines

 

 

Zepherfan

Could someone tell me if a 425 steam engine should have a weight in the front of the boiler casting? Someone had removed the headlight socket and bracket, as well as the reverse unit. Have been locating junker parts for a restoration, but am at a loss as to whether I need a weight too. Thanks for any advice on this!

 

 

 

 

 

There is no weight in the front of the 425.

 

NWL

 

      Many thanks for that information! I had re-read almost all the previous posts but was unable to find anything about a weight. 

      

      

[Nationwidelines]

Zepherfan

Could someone tell me if a 425 steam engine should have a weight in the front of the boiler casting? Someone had removed the headlight socket and bracket, as well as the reverse unit. Have been locating junker parts for a restoration, but am at a loss as to whether I need a weight too. Thanks for any advice on this!

 

 

There is no weight in the front of the 425.

 

NWL

[Zepherfan]

Could someone tell me if a 425 steam engine should have a weight in the front of the boiler casting? Someone had removed the headlight socket and bracket, as well as the reverse unit. Have been locating junker parts for a restoration, but am at a loss as to whether I need a weight too. Thanks for any advice on this!

[Nationwidelines]

George Thill

I made some for my lionel #33 STD gauge engines from universal track lockons, but they don't work well: too abrupt and jerkey.

 

 

I would suspect that you will find the Flyer track trip to also be "abrupt and jerky". 

 

Although I have never used the Wide Gauge track trip reverse, I know that the O gauge trips are abrupt and jerky.  Due to the nature of the design, it is my guess that this type of mechanism can only be abrupt and jerky.  That is likely why Flyer quickly moved to automatic reverse and manual reverse that operated by a lever sticking through the roof of the standard gauge locomotives.

 

NWL

[George Thill]

Thanks, guys, for all this great info and photos!

Now I will try to fashion a similar device since i've never been able to aquire one to operate this reverse feature.

I made some for my lionel #33 STD gauge engines from universal track lockons, but they don't work well: too abrupt and jerkey.