Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

Crossing Gates  -   236 Crossing Set

I was looking at some other items in my collection the other day and I noticed something about one of the accessories that Flyer put together.  Its interesting to see what they did to combine existing accessories into something new and different to bring to the market.  There wouldn't be much expense in creating something new, and I would assume that it would use up existing stock.  The item that I noticed specifically was the the #236 Crossing Set.

 

It was cataloged from 1933 - 1935.  Its made up of a combination of a #214 Watchman's Tower, a #206 Danger Signal with a light added to it and a blue standard; and what caught my attention was the use of the #2021 Crossing Gate. All of these are mounted on a red base.  I thought I had posted photos of most of the common crossing gates using this style, and then I recognized the #2021 in use here.

 

 

 

 

The # 2021 is a common accessory and it is used here in combination with several other common accessories to make a toy with plenty of play value.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Nationwidelines

Northwoods Flyer

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

 

 

Northwoods,

 

The blue shasta set is not in the TCA museum.  However, this unusual red shasta is in the TCA Museum.  Note that it is not the shorter st. paul engine.

 

 

As for the Blue Shasta, I have heard rumors that at least the engine is in a collection in the NYC area.  I am not sure that the set remains a set as pictured in the Russell Parks guide. 

 

NWL

 

 

Back on page 77 I posted a picture of this engine, which is in the TCA museum.  Yesterday I visited the TCA museum and took another look at this engine.  The museum has changed the lighting and display for this engine and it was displayed on a lower shelf with better lighting.  In the better lighting I was able to identify this as a repainted engine due to visible brush strokes on the engine shell.  The shell appeared to be mounted on a very nice original frame, which makes it harder to determine that it is a repaint, when looking through display case glass at a distance.

 

Overall I was disappointed with the quality and display of prewar flyer items in the museum.  Although I realize that the items are donated, many of the prewar flyer items on display were in very poor condition, were labeled incorrectly, and were displayed in a hodgepodge fashion.  There were items that were displayed as sets, that were mismatched items that were from different eras and were never, ever sets.  To think that a museum operated by the TCA cannot display items properly was very disappointing.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

233 (B) Arc Light - Addendum

I am always surprised and delighted when I find an original American Flyer box.  When you consider how old this pre war cardboard is I think it is amazing thta it has survived.  I now have 2 boxes for the 233 Arc Light.

 

 

Does anyone recognize the name Kern's, and do you know where the store was located?

 

 

Of course as much fun as finding the boxes might be, its even more exciting to examine what is inside of the box.

 

 

In this case it happens to be the blue version of the 233(B) Arc Light - the most recent aquisition and variation.  Now all I have to do is find the lighter green version and I will have the entire family.  It would even be greater to find one in a box.

 

Here is what I have assembled so far:

 

 

 Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[Major]

Great information on this thread and I read every post.   I finally got enough 4 rail flyer track to make a large oval however I have a question. How was the fourth rail connected to the whistle control button. I do not have any catalogs from the years that the four rail track was made so I am not able to see what was for sale.  Finally my City of Denver and Hiawatha will be able to have their whistles blow while moving.

[Nationwidelines]

Major,

 

Some of the curved sections have connecting pins/tabs from the 4th rail that one can attach wires to.  I am not sure what type of button was used to power the whistle.  I have never seen any sort of button associated with the whistle cars/track.  It may in fact be a doorbell style button similar to what came with the Hudson billboard whistle.

 

However, I do have operating instructions for the whistle cars that may show something, as sometimes the instructions have diagrams on them and I know the instructions show all types of whistle cars.  I will look at them on Sunday after I get home from York.

[Northwoods Flyer]

MtIowefan sent photos to complement this entry that he posted earlier.  Its taken me a while to get myself organized, but here they are finally.

 

 

Mtlowefan

Hi there--I am new to your Flyer website and I enjoy it very much.  I'm not new to train collecting howver, having bought my first Flyer wide gauge car 50 years ago--still have it.  In 1952 Santa brought me a slightly used O gauge Steel Mogul set, and I have loved all Chicago Flyer ever since.

I would like to bring to your attention an interesting variation of your beautiful  Shasta loo.  Several years ago I bought a Cal Stewart in Pasadena a BEAUTIFUL restored set of three Legionaire cars.  I didn't have a 4687 at the time but eventually found  a tired one on eBay--paying too much, of course.

  It had the front and rear couplers like yours--they stepped up as they exited the underframe.  Well, much to my surprise, the loco would not couple to my cars.  The couplers were too high.  The ONLY way to make them couple was to flop them over, so they stepped DOWN, then reattach the tang on the lower side.  I was quite surprised to have to do this, but a friend who has a huge eFlyer collection has several of these locos, and on some the couplers steped up and on others it stepped down. I guess it depended on what cars the loco came with from the factory. 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Ever heard of this?

Regards, Charles Seims

 

 

Thanks Charles.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles also sent some photos of the Wide Gauge cars that have couplers painted to match the color of the car that he mentioned in this post.

Mtlowefan

Recently discovered another coupler oddity--couplers painted body color on two wide gauge freight cars (caboose and gondola) I found.  I haven't seen this variation before.

 

 

 

 

 

Chas. Seims

 Thanks again for sending the photos Charles.  I'm sorry for the delay in posting them.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Major

Great information on this thread and I read every post.   I finally got enough 4 rail flyer track to make a large oval however I have a question. How was the fourth rail connected to the whistle control button. I do not have any catalogs from the years that the four rail track was made so I am not able to see what was for sale.  Finally my City of Denver and Hiawatha will be able to have their whistles blow while moving.

Major,

Thanks for the compliment Major.  I'm always glad when someone can find useful information on the thread.

I believe that this is the piece of track  that Nationwidelines is talking about.

 

 And this is the track connection for the 4th rail that activates the whistle in the whistling cars/tenders.

 

 

 

 

I have never actually seen a train running on this type of track, nor have I heard one of the whistling tenders.  I just recently got one to go with my hudson.  I think that Natiowidelines is correct in his assumption that it may be a bakelite door bell that is used as the activation button, like the ones used with the billboards.  I'm guessing that you run a wire from the accessory post to the button and then on to the fahnstock clip. When the 4th rail is energized the special sliding shoe on the bottom of the whistling car/tender completes the circuit to the ground.  I'll be interested to see what Nationwidelines finds out when he looks at the instruction sheet.

 

Congratulations on finding enough track to make an oval so you can run your Hiawatha and your City of Denver.  I hope you will post a video when you get them running.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Major/Northwoods,

 

That is the piece of track that I was referring to relating to the whistle power.  I checked the instruction sheet I had, but unfortunately, it was relating to the operation of the whistle motor / lubrication and did not contain any wiring instructions for the track. 

 

I have never actually run my whistle trains on the special track either, but I have tested the whistles and the sound is similar to the billboards.

 

NWL

[Major]

Thanks for the photo. None of the 14 pieces of curve or 18 pieces of straight that I have include that clip on them.  I did notice that a couple of the straight track are made with only three ties instead of the normal four ties. I did not see any of this track at York nor have I ever seen any at other train show I have attended.

[Nationwidelines]

 Major,

 

The extra clip for the 4th rail power is only found on curved pieces.  The three rail track that you mention, which is also on the fiberboard base, was only sold in 1936 as a separate sale item and is fairly difficult to find, as is the whistle track. 

 

Additional items that are difficult to find on the fiberboard are half sections of track, which came in both straights and curves and I believe are found in both 3 and 4 rail versions.  I have a number of the half sections of 4 rail whistle track.

 

The track mounted on fiberboard does show up on ebay occaisionally in both 3 and 4 rail versions and is most often seen as 4 rail versions.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

These are the pieces of 4 rail whistle track that Nationwidelines is describing above.

 

I'm fairly certain that there is a discussion of this 4 rail track and the 3 rail track mounted on the base earlier on the thread.  I'm not certain exactly where it is on the thread at the moment.

Major,

Did you mean that your track has 3 rails or 3 ties?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

I did a little checking after I posted the information on the whistle track and found the other entry back on page 63.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Major]

I have a couple pieces of four rail track that were made with only three ties not the normal four.  I will take a picture and post it later today.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

#240 A  Telegraph Pole

This is the #240 A telegraph Pole

 

Flyer cataloged the #240 A  in 1933 and 1934 as a part of the #240 Equipment Set. 

 

As you can see 6 of the telegraph poles came with the set.  Recently I was fortunate to find 6 of the poles in one lot.

 

 

I have a pretty good start on the entire equipment set, but I am still missing a few of the pieces.  I think that NationWideLines has all of the pieces and the box that they originally came in.  I don't remember if he has posted the photos here or on another site.

 

This gives you an idea of their scale in comparison to a Narrow Gauge engine.  I think they were originally designed to go with the Wide Gauge line.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Darth Santa Fe]

Northwoods Flyer requested that I post my recent American Flyer restoration videos here, so here they are!

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

The #4000 is a pretty simple one to restore, as far as prewar trains go. Something more complex like a steam engine likely would have taken twice as long!

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

A friend of mine purchased 6 of these telegraph poles with an original box marked 1/2 dozen 219 telegraph poles.  Not sure if possibly they were a late substitution for the earlier double crossarm poles or not, as the 219 telegraph poles were cataloged in 1931-1932

 

Northwoods Flyer

Accessories

#240 A  Telegraph Pole

This is the #240 A telegraph Pole

 

Flyer cataloged the #240 A  in 1933 and 1934 as a part of the #240 Equipment Set. 

 

As you can see 6 of the telegraph poles came with the set.  Recently I was fortunate to find 6 of the poles in one lot.

 

 

I have a pretty good start on the entire equipment set, but I am still missing a few of the pieces.  I think that NationWideLines has all of the pieces and the box that they originally came in.  I don't remember if he has posted the photos here or on another site.

 

This gives you an idea of their scale in comparison to a Narrow Gauge engine.  I think they were originally designed to go with the Wide Gauge line.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

Northwoods,

 

A friend of mine purchased 6 of these telegraph poles with an original box marked 1/2 dozen 219 telegraph poles.  Not sure if possibly they were a late substitution for the earlier double crossarm poles or not, as the 219 telegraph poles were cataloged in 1931-1932

 

NationWideLines,

That sounds like pretty good evidence that these telegraph poles are actually a # 219.  I was using the #240A designation following Schuweiler's suggestion.  The descriptions in the Greenberg guide aren't detailed enough for me to make a good determination.  It wouldn't be the first time that Flyer gave the same number to two different but similar items.

Accessories

209 & 210 Telegraph Poles

Lets take a look at several more telegraph poles that American Flyer cataloged over the years.

Here are two versions of the 209 and a single version of the 210

 

The Greenberg guide lists the 209 (A) as being cataloged from 1920 through 1930.  It has a single cross arm.

 

 

The 209 (B) is listed as being cataloged from 1927 through 1939 and it has a double cross arm.

 

 

 The 210 is listed as being cataloged from 1920 through 1923 and has triple cross arms.

 

 

As I photographed them I noticed some differences.

 

The stampings for the 209 (A) and (B) that make up the cross arms are slightly different.

 

 

while the stampings for the cross arms on the 209 (A) and the 210 are identical, obvioulsy because they are from the same time period

 

 

The red color of the 209 (B) is just a shade darker than the color of the 209 (A)

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

What you are calling a 209 B, the double cross arm telegraph pole, is shown in the catalog from 1927 through 1930 as the 209 and then in 1931 and 1932 it is shown as the 219 telegraph pole.  Schuweiler's descriptions of the poles lists the 209 B as being produced from 1927 through 1939; however, the 209 number disappears in 1931 and is replaced by the 219 number with the same artwork as the 209.  The telegraph pole 219 is only cataloged from 1931-1932 and single telegraph poles are not cataloged after 1932, only the 240 Equipment set. 

I did note that the description of the 219 pole, lists it as 7 3/4 inches tall and the telegraph pole in the 240 Equipment Set is listed as being over 10 inches high, so there is some initial difference between the early 219 poles and the ones cataloged in the 240 Equipment Set.

Based on the 209 telegraph poles in my collection, I believe that the red single arm telegraph pole shown in your photo is a 209 B pole that is missing one of its cross arms.  The reason I say this is that the single arm 209 poles in my collection are 7 3/4 inches tall and the double arm 209 telegraph poles in my collection are 9 inches tall.  That being said, I now realize that the catalog descriptions for both the 209 and 219 double arm telegraph poles list them as being 7 3/4 inches tall double arm telegraph poles.  Not sure of the discrepancy in height, but the double arm poles in my collection are all 9 inches tall and the single arm ones 7 3/4 inches tall.

Additionally, the single and triple arm telegraph poles in my collection are painted a medium olive green color and that is the only color I have personally seen the single and triple arm telegraph poles.

One final note about the single and triple arm telegraph poles.  There appear to be two versions of actual posts.  One version in my collection is a rolled sheetmetal tube type post and the other is a solid wire type post.  I noted that all of the double arm telegraph posts in my collection are the solid wire type post, so possibly the earliest posts are the sheetmetal tube type posts, as only the single and triple arm posts were cataloged from 1920 to 1924 and the double arm post did not appear until 1927.  It may be that the first posts were the sheetmetal tube type posts and were discovered to be easily bent with the later posts being a solid wire type that were stronger.

Lastly, it will be great to see you at trainfest.  I am sure you are already on your way.

[Nationwidelines]

Here are some photos of the telegraph poles in my collection.  First are the 209 A type single arm telegraph poles.  I am showing two different versions of poles, with the one that is missing its insulators having hollow tube type construction and the one with both insulators present being the solid steel wire type construction.  Both poles are 7 3/4 inches tall.

 

 

Next up are the 210 telegraph poles, which were shown in the 1921-1924 catalogs.  Again I am showing two versions, the one missing all insulators features hollow tube pole construction and the one with all insulators present features solid wire type pole construction.  One note is that the one with the hollow tube construction is 10 3/8 inches tall and the one with the solid wire type pole is 10 7/8 inches tall. 

 

 

 

I am guessing that the telegraph poles featuring the hollow tube pole construction are early variations, that for some reason were discontinued.  I base that assumption on the fact that they are uncommon and that the double arm telegraph poles I have observed are all of solid wire type pole construction.  Additionally, I noted that have 18 of the solid wire type 210 telegraph poles, versus 6 of the hollow tube construction 210 telegraph poles.

 

Next up are the 209 B and 219 double arm telegraph poles.  I have shown two variations of double arm telegraph poles that I have, one red and one green.  I am guessing that the green pole is a 209 B version and the red is the 219 version.  My reasoning for this attribution is that the V support braces on the actual arms of the green double arm telegraph pole are very narrow braces and the similar braces on the red telegraph poles are very wide.  Since the single arm 209 and triple arm 210 telegraph poles all have narrow braces for their arms, I attribute the green narrow brace on the arm of the double arm telegraph pole to be the 209 B version and the wider brace red double arm telegraph pole to be the 219 telegraph pole.  These are both 8 3/4 inches tall.

 

One last note about the double arm telegraph poles, they do not have the decorative surround at the base of the poles, like the single and triple arm telegraph poles have.  I noted that the catalog depictions for the 209 double arm telegraph poles in 1927-1930 and also the 219 in 1931-1932 do not have the surround, but it is shown on the 209 telegraph poles for 1921-1926 and the 210 telegraph poles for 1921-1924.

 

 

 

Lastly, here is a shot of the group.

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods asked that I post pictures of the 240 equipment set.  Please note  my photo is missing the crossing gate, which was missing from my set at the time this was taken.

 

 

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

NationWideLines,

Thanks for the excellent information on the telegraph poles.    I appreciate the information that you provide to give a better picture of Flyer production and history.

Thanks too for posting the photo of the 240 Equipment set.

 

#3107   An ongoing investigation.

I recently purchased another variation of the #3107.  There have been posts about this engine back on pages 26,27 and 56.  On page 56 there is a discussion about the variation in colors over its 3 years of production.

I brought both of my variations together to compare their colors

 

The color difference is subtle but you can see that the example on the right has a distinctly more blue tint to it.

 

As I compare my examples to the descriptions in the Greenberg Guide I'm not exactly sure which of the variations listed there that I have.

 

This first example is definitely a bright green

 

 

And the roof is only slightly darker than the color of the body of the engine.  It has 4 American Flyer Lines brass tags and a manual reverse with the lever sticking up through a slot in the roof. (It comes closest to the description of Variation A)

 

 

The second example is more of a blue green.

 

 

This example also has a slightly darker shade of paint on the roof.  It has 2 American Flyer Lines brass tags and 2 3107 brass tags.  The manual reverse lever is present in the same place and sticks up through the same slot in the roof.

 

 

The difference in the colors of the engines is very subtle.

 

 

I know that the shades of green vary over the three years that the engine was cataloged.  In checking the catalogs I discovered that the #3107 was included in the New Bluebird Set in 1930 and The Bluebird in 1931. 

 

Do I actually have a #3107 that was part of a Bluebird Set?  Many of the #3107s came in the Frontenac set which was green and had matching green cars.  I have never seen an example of a #3107 that has a darker blue color to it.  I'm more familiar with the deep blue of the lithographed Bluebird sets.

 

I have limited access to examples of this engine.  Does anyone have an example of the #3107 included in a 1930 The New Bluebird or the 1931 The Bluebird?  Better yet, does anyone have a boxed example of the blue #3107 that I could compare for color? 

 

The next post will display and compare the cars that came with each of these engines.

 

The investigation continues........

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

I believe that the engine you identify as Version A in your post is similar to the one I have below.  This engine is from a boxed Frontenac set.  It is green with a darker green roof.

 

 

I believe that the second engine you show is similar to this engine.  It is more of a blue green body with blue roof.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not positive as to what the name of the set the above engine would have came with but I believe that more than likely it was the New Bluebird/1931 bluebird set.  I have matching cars for both of the engines pictured here.

 

I know that the blue on blue 3105 engine, which is essentially the 3107 without reverse, came in a set known as the Dixie Queen set.  However, I do not have either a boxed New Bluebird/1931 Bluebird set or a boxed Dixie Queen set. 

 

NWL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

 As a follow up to the information posted by NationWideLines I am posting the two #3107 engines and the #3105 engine that I have in my collection for a color comparison.

 

The colors in the photos are not as distinct as they are when you view them in person.

 

 

The engine on the top is the #3105 from a boxed Dixie Queen Set. The engine on the bottom left is the blue-green version of the # 3107 that I believe is from the 1931 Bluebird Set, and the #3107 on the bottom right is from what I believe is a Frontenac set.

 

You can see that the two "blue" engines are different is color

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

I know that Northwoods likes to post a Christmas Tale relating to trains, so I thought I would post the following story that I interpreted from a note written by Santa.

 

"Hello Iris.  Did you tell someone you wanted a train?  Santa"

 

The above note was found on the remains of the box top pictured below

 

 

I can only imagine Iris' excitement of finding what appears to be Set 19 under the Christmas tree some 96 years ago in 1917.  Iris must have cherished her train as when I received it last week, it was still in beautiful condition.  Sadly, only the labels from the box remain and tunnel is no longer with the set, but the set is a beauty. 

Here is Iris' set

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can only hope that Iris and her family enjoyed the train for many years and am honored to be the current caretaker.

 

Merry Christmas

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Here is a #92 Billboard c. 1923

 

 

I find it interesting that the factory address appears to be typed on to the label, as I have not observed that before.

 

NWL

[strainst]

This is really a nice set.  I don't think I have seem the 93 Freight Shed with a yellow roof.  It is very appealing.

strainst

[Nationwidelines]

strainst

This is really a nice set.  I don't think I have seem the 93 Freight Shed with a yellow roof.  It is very appealing.

strainst

strainst

 

Thanks.  I believe the yellow roof appears only on the earliest stations.  I have seen it before, but I know that it is unusual.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

NationWideLines,

Thanks for posting the photos of "Iris' Christmas Train".  I really enjoy it when it is possible to find out the history of the piece or set that you add to a collection.  In my opinion it gives the item just a bit more interest.  It does make me wonder about the stories that are attached to the items that I have in my collection, but will never be known.  It just reinforces the idea that I am only a steward of these toys and that now my history and their history are intertwined.

#3107 the ongoing Investigation.

Here are the sets that were headed up by the #3107 and the #3105.

This is the green Frontenac.  The colors of the engine and the cars match.

 

This is the blue green #3107 with matching cars.  I believe that it is from the 1931 version of The Bluebird.  With a little examination of the box in which the previous owner shipped it to me, I discovered that he thought it was a Bluebird set as well. (At least that is what he had labeled the box.)

 

 

And a photo of the two sets together for a color compaison

 

 

Here is a photo of the Dixie Queen set with the blue #3105 and its matching cars. This set has blue bodies and darker blue roofs.

 

 

The Dixie Queen set has a color variation.  Some of the sets have the same blue #3105 but the cars are more of a violet blue.

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

220 Station Clock

Back on page 70 there is an entry about the 220 Station Clock that was cataloged for seperate sale from 1930 -1932. It was included in the #240 Equipment Set in 1933 -1934.  At that time I only had the green variation.  I recently was able to aquire the red variation.

It only seemed fitting that I post photos of both variations now during the Christmas season.

 

 

 

Enjoying the world's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer