Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Nationwidelines]

The set was not marketed through Macy's.  The early empire express items were exclusive to JC Penney and were done prior to Penneys having the Nation Wide Lines items be their store brand for a few years in the late 20s / early 30s..  American Flyer tended to name their cars/sets after historical references, often relating to the revolutionary war or other early american figures / events.

[spankybird]

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

Spankybird,

Thanks for posting the photos of the Wide Gauge electric engines. You filled in some of the missing entries from the preceeding listings.

The 4644 with the red cab and the black frame is Variation B from the New Haven Style Box Cab engines listed back a page. It is in great shape. Is it in original paint?

The 4678 is the engine from the Hamiltonian passenger set. It is an example of the New York Central Style Box Cab electrics.

The blue engine is from the Presidents Special. It is a New York Central Style as well, with pony trucks added. The identifying eagle from the Presidents Special sat on the pedestal on the front truck. It looks like someone has been restoring it. Is there any information on the brass tags on either side of the cab?  I can't make them out from the photos. 

You have some great examples of American Fyer's Wide Gauge production. 

Thanks again for posting the photos.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

NationWideLines,

Thanks for the information on the Empire Express set. I re-read Schuweiler's information about the #4753 and he mentions that the set is pictured in Toy Train Treasury Vol. 2   -  The Shempp Collection. I went looking through my library and came across a copy of the book.

 

There is a great two page photo of the "Empire Express" set in the book.

 

And here is an exerpt of what the authors say about it:

 

"The one (set) pictured, sometimes referred to as The Empire Express, was created by American Flyer in the late 1920's for the J.C. Penney Co.  Although not bearing the Penny name it is readily determined to be a "Special" by the locomotive number - #4753 (regularly cataloged models of this type were the #46(00) series; the names of the cars, Knickerbocker and Henry Hudson - which were never assigned listed equipment - and finally by the tomato red color scheme not otherwise used."

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[dad4685]

Northwoods Flyer

 

Many thanks for your work here.  I am new to this stuff and own the above train set (my dad's - one of the few gifts he received during the Great Depression years).  I searched Google and found your blog and your picture which confirmed my model and some related details.

 

How do I find out more about this train, it's accessories and value?  This is starting to get fun!

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

dad4685,

to the forum.  I'm glad you made your way to this thread.  I hope you have found some of the information that you were looking for. I am assuming that you have your father's #4685 St. Paul locomotive from your forum name.  You didn't mention which engine you have.  Just a point of information -  when you reply to any entry  (which I think is back on page 77) in the thread it is automatically  posted as the newest entry at the end of the thread.  To include information from the original entry you have to use the Quote option available.  I was able to figure it out.

The #4685 was cataloged in 1929 and 1930 although an illustration with that number is not actually shown either year.  In 1929 it headed up a freight set named "The PATHFINDER"

 

You have to look at the information in the red outlined box to find it however.

 

It heads up the set with a remote control reverse unit.

 

In 1929 it also heads up the passenger set known as "The LONE SCOUT", but again it is only mentioned in the descripion in the red outlined box under the artwork as being available in a seperate set as a remote control reverse model.

 

 

 

In 1930 it again appears in the freight set "The PATHFINDER".  In fact I think that the same catalog art is used - except the price has been reduced from $35.00 ($38.00 for western price) to $33.00 ($36 for western price).

 

It also appears as a seperate sale item.  Again, it isn't pictured, but it is mentioned in red below the seperate sale #4635 which is a manual reverse version.

 

 

It does not appear in a passenger set in 1930.  "The LONE SCOUT" set has been renamed "The NEW LONE SCOUT"  It has a new manual reverse engine - the #4633 in 1930 ( It was the #4635 in 1929), and the #4683 now heads up the remote control reverse engine,

 

That is probably more information than you were looking for, but I like to be thorough.    I hope it helps.

 

Do you have any cars or other equipment?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

It is my understanding that the Empire Express standard gauge set was sold in two versions, there is a version with engine, coach, and observation, as shown in the toy train treasury book and there is a version that features engine, two coaches, and observation car. 

 

I have seen two of the versions with the extra coach in them and to my knowledge they both were legitimate sets that did not have an extra coach added.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

NWL,

Thanks for the added information on the Empire Express wide gauge sets. I'd love to have either set in my collection.

410 Variations

Sometimes variations turn up in unexpected places. I was going through some of the items that I have stored and I came across something that I had not noticed before.

I have two versions of the # 410 tank car.

 

There is an obvious difference between them.  The domes are different.  The car on the left has a brass colored dome.

 

 

 

The car on the right has a nickel colored dome.

 

 

 

 

 

The really interesting thing was what I discovered on the boxes.  I am fortunate enough to have the boxes for both of them.

 

I was surprised to see what are basically identical cars labeled differently.

 

The car on the left  has 410 Oil Car stamped on the box

 

The car on the right has 410 Tank Car stamped on the box.

 

 

I know that the 410 was cataloged in 1939 and 1940 so I checked out both catalogs and found that the car was called by different names each year.

 

In the 1939 catalog the 410 is called a Tank Car.    It is included in the Double Header Set, the No. 19 Train Set - which is an O Gauge Switcher Set, the No. 318 Train Set, and it was available as a seperate sale item.

 

In the 1940 catalog the 410 is called an Oil Car.  It was cataloged in only one set -  The No.4014 Train Set.

 

Without their original boxes I would not have realized that there were two "different" cars in 1939 and 1940.

 

Enjoying the Worlds Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637  - addendum

Back on page 77 I added a post about the #4637 and promised to post photos when I finally owned one.  Thanks to a reader of the thread I have been able to add one of these magnificent engines to my roster.  Here are the photos of a fairly recent addition to the Northwoods Flyer Collection. 

 

 

 

I have quoted the original posting on page 77 below:

 

 

Northwoods Flyer

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637

The next number in the sequence of St Paul style electrics that American Flyer cataloged is #4637. Unfortunately I don't have an example of this locomotive in the Northwoods Flyer Collection, but here is a photo of page 21 in the 1929 American Flyer Catalog.

The #4637 first appears in the catalog in 1929 and runs through 1933. As the page heading proudly boasts, there are "32 Points of Superiority". 

 

The engine has a ringing bell and a remote control reversing motor.  The color scheme of Green and "Rookie Tan" (as Flyer called it) is very attractive and when the 4637 heads up the Pocahontas set or one of the other sets of matching green and tan cars it is impressive. Notice that the cab has 6 ventilator openings per side where the other St Paul type engines only have 4 per side.

 

The 4637 is one of my collecting goals and as soon as I own one I will edit a photo of it into the thread.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Double Header Set  -1939  - Addendum

There are many sets that American Flyer produced that I like.  I would have a hard time selecting one set that I would call my favorite.  However, I do like this set a lot. 

I have been working at assembling a Double Header Set since I first saw it in the 1939 catalog.  I set my goals fairly high after I aquired the two engines and tenders. 

The individual cars are not that difficult to find, but I decided I wanted to have the original boxes with the cars.  Recently I reached my goal.  I have the three cars that came in the set in their original boxes.

 

There are additional entries about the Double Header set back on pages 15, 33, and 53. 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

The American Flyer 3-Piece Bridge No. 112

 

   Flyer introduced the 3 piece bridge in the 1925 catalog.  The bridge consists of a lithoed center span and two lithoed approaches.  Three rail track sections are riveted to each bridge piece.  The track itself is banked with ties that set each rail at different height.

  The catalog cut for 1925 is small (#112 is at the top of the catalog cut) but it does indicate that the center span was orange (Figure 1) and the indistinct markings on the bridge do suggest a pattern which matches the bridge in Figure 2. 

 

Figure 1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure 2

 

 

 

In 1927 the catalog used the same printing cut from the earlier catalogs but the color of the center span changed to bright yellow (Figure 3).  This catalog illustration, without changes was shown in the yearly catalog until its last cataloging in 1932 and the center span color matches the bridge in Figure 4.

Figure 3

 

 

 

Figure 4

 

 

 

Thus, the catalog evidence would suggest that for the first two years of its manufacture the No.112 bridge center span was orange and carried an ad for the CM&St.P  Pioneer and Olympian passenger trains complete with Milwaukee Railroad Heralds and that for the rest of its production run it was bright yellow and carried an ad for American Flyer Trains.

  It should also be noted that the bridge could be purchased with clockwork track and it was listed in the catalog as item No. 123. The 1927 price difference between the two was $1.25 for the three rail track and $1.00 for two rail clockwork.

[AF53]

These are great pieces! I happen to buy this set last year and was thinking how this really represents American Flyer in that time period.

"Sold & Known Everywhere East-West-South-North And Foreign"

[Nationwidelines]

mersenne6

The American Flyer 3-Piece Bridge No. 112

 

 

 

  It should also be noted that the bridge approaches could be purchases separately and were listed in the catalog as item No. 123. The 1927 price difference between the two was $1.25 for the three piece and $1.00 for just the approaches.

 

Mersenne,

 

Actually, you are mistaken about what Catalog # 123 refers to.  It does not refer to just the bridge approaches being sold separately.  Rather, it refers to the same bridge as the 112 bridge, but with 2-rail O gauge wind-up track instead of 3 rail O gauge electric track.  The 1927 catalog artwork that you show even denotes that fact as it states "For Mechanical Track Only, Cat. No. 123"

 

NWL

[AF53]

I've often wondered why the track on this bridge is banked. Just doesn't make sense. Any ideas as to why?

[Nationwidelines]

Ray,

 

It is banked because Flyer was only making banked track.  Why would they make special track just for the bridge?  You are not thinking in terms of cost effectiveness, after all Flyer was cheap.

 

NWL

[mersenne6]

Thanks NWL - it just goes to show that sometimes even when you read something you don't get it right. 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Great documentation on the lithographed bridges folks.  I have had both bridges in my collection for a while.  Neither of them came with track, so I am assuming that previous owners removed it.  I have not been able to find a set of approaches to go with either bridge.  - or I should say I have been out bid on the sets of approaches that I have seen on ebay.    I haven't posted photos of them because I wanted to be able to show what the entire bridge ensemble looked like.   Is there any variation in the brickwork lithographed on the bridge?  Thanks mersenne6 and AF53 for posting the photos.  Here are a couple of shots of the Milwaukee Road version of the bridge on the Blueboard Central.

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

I just love that double-header set.  I picked up several of the pieces of it quite a while back, then got sidetracked and put them in a box.  Some of it needs repair if I remember right and the "dummy" may just be a regular 401.

Your re-posting of this set has lit a fire for me to get back to fixing it up.  Thank you.

I don't recall seeing the bridge and approaches before.  I am curious how well they worked as they look a bit steep.  Were the trains able to negotiate the bridges? 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Southern Colorado Marx Flyer,

Its good to know that I'm not the only one that is attracted to the Double Header set. I've even considered picking up another dummy and tender so that I can have the world's only Triple Header set.  .  I hope that you will post some photos of your repair/restoration work on your set.  Your other repair postings have been very helpful.

Flashing Signal #203 and #223     Addendum

Back on page 70 NationWide Lines posted some photos of the #203 and #223 signals when we were cataloging wide gauge accessores.  I recently aquired a #223 in blue so I thought I would post it with my #203 Flashing Signal

The #203 without the operating lever is on the left in green and the #223 with the operating lever in blue is on the right.

 

A few more photos of the #223

 

 

 

 

 

This leads me to believe that the #203 probably comes in a blue version as well, particularly when the catalog shows the Flashing Signal in blue

 

 

I've re-posted NationWide Lines' entry from page 70 below to keep the information together.

 

                                                         +++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Northwoods brought up the difference of the banjo signal with and without the operating arm, I thought of the following similar accessory, which was marketed as the 203 Flashing Signal (without operating lever) and 223 Flashing Signal (with operating lever).  Like the 202 and 222 Banjo Signal, this item first appeared in the 1930 Flyer catalog.

There are significant differences between the 203 and 223 versions of this accessory.  The 203 version does not have the moveable arms inside the top and the rear of the top is not punched out.  I have shown closeups of the 203 and 223 versions to show the operating mechanism.

 

223 on the left and 203 on the right in photo below

 

 

 

 

Front of 203

 

 

Rear of 203

 

 

Front of 223

 

 

Front of 223 with flashing arms half closed

 

Rear of 223 with arms up

 

 

Rear of 223 with arms down

 

 Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

Thanks Northwoods.  A triple-header?  Yes!!!  Be sure to post that if you do.

I'll see how this project goes.  You may remember that I am not really a collector nor do I have an interest in restoring these trains to their original appearance.  I just enjoy cleaning and fixing them so that they function and kinda like the scratches and dents.

In re-looking at this project I can surely see why I put it all in a box.  There is much to do.

The cars all are in need of cleaning and maybe some straightening here and there.  But they do look to be pretty much intact.  I don't think the gondola was part of the set, but it looks to go well with the other cars.  I also have a Borden car with the right couplers.

I thought I had both tenders, but see now that the second (dummy) tender has 3/16" trucks.  I just found one that will work if I put a truck with a link coupler on the rear.  Not sure the truck styles would match then, but I'll see what I can find.

The lead 2-4-2 locomotive is in pretty good shape.  The wheels are all good.  Right now it just hums, but I have usually been able to get the motors to work.  I haven't pulled it apart yet.  I don't know yet if it is the problem, but I am not a fan of American Flyer e-units.  They are often balky if they work at all.  I sometimes just bypass them.

The trailing (dummy) locomotive looks to me from your pictures and from the advertisement to be a  2-4-4 (401?).  Here are the suspects I have for that locomotive (and a lot of work to do here).

Pretty much all of them need pilot wheels and some need drive wheels. Pretty easy to find.

The top two are most likely the ones I will choose from.  The top one is missing one of the linkages on one side.  Neither one runs at the moment, but will not need to.  Both have freely turning drive wheels.  I think all I really need to do is remove the double gear that meshes with the drive wheels.  One of the pictures on your thread shows that the dummy still has brush tubes - though I will pull out the brushes.  I have a curly-Q coupler that I can mount to the front of the locomotive.  Dare I use both to triple-head?  I may wait to see if you try it, Northwoods. 

The third from the top is interesting.  It runs well and has a whistle that blows when it is running.  I think that would drive me crazy after a while.

The bottom one has a gutted motor which is fine, but the drive wheels aren't matched and it is missing all of its drive linkage. It is least likely to be useful.

So, I'm going to have to order some parts and get to work on it.  I'll try to update as I go.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories

233 Arc Light

There are two double lamp posts that use this number.

Version (A) was cataloged from 1933 - 1935

 

 

This version is blue and 7-3/8" tall.  It is made of stamped steel with a  2-11/16" circular base and a flat upright..  It is blue in color.

 

 

It is described as having brass bulb holders and shades, but my example has nickle plated bulb holders and shades.

 

 

Version (B) was cataloged from 1936 - 1939.

 

 

It comes in green or blue.  It is 8-1/8" tall and has a 3" square stamped steel base.  It is described as having nickel bulb holds.  (This makes me wonder if my blue version (A) might be a transition piece.)

 

 

Version (A) and Version (B)

 

 

I'll be on the hunt for a blue example of Version (B)

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

Version B comes in 3 variations.  There is blue, the green you show, and then a light lgreen version that appears to be the later version.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Thanks Nationwidelines,  I am always willing to be on the hunt for another variation. 

Accessories     2222 Crossing Gate    Addendum

Back on page 30 there are a number of postings about accessories.  One that we covered was the 2222 Crossing Gate.  Schweiler documents two versions of the crossing gate in Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge

2222 (a) is cataloged from 1928 - 1934  (Correction Edit - This is actually a photo of a 2022 crossing gate cataloged from 1925 - 1927)

(You have to love those Christmas tree bulbs)

 

2222 (b) appears in catalogs from 1936 to 1939

 

 

I became aware of another variation through Nationwidelines.  He posted a variation on another site several months ago.  I have been looking for an example since then, and I finally found one.

 

Lets call this  2222(C)

 

 

As you can see it has the same shape as variation (a) but the color is blue green - actually closer to teal.  This is the third example of this color crossing gate that I have seen.  The color is very close to a set of passenger cars that I have.

 

 

 

And here is the whole 2222 family

 

 

I wonder what time period it comes from?  I'm guessing that it is from the same 1928 - 1934 time period as version (a)

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

The early versions of the 2222 are identical to the 2022 crossing gate produced from 1925-1927.  I have a boxed example of a 2022, with the box label showing a picture of the crossing gate.  There is also the 2021 crossing gate, which is similar to the early version, but it is non-lighted and does not feature the shorter arm.  The 2021 was cataloged from 1925-1933.

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

To further distinguish the 2022 from the 2222 crossing gate, the catalog artwork shows the variation you show in red, which has the light socket mounted above the arm, as the 2022 and the variation you show in blue, which has the light socket mounted in the arm, as the 2222 crossing gate. 

 

NWL

[Mtlowefan]

Hi there--I am new to your Flyer website and I enjoy it very much.  I'm not new to train collecting howver, having bought my first Flyer wide gauge car 50 years ago--still have it.  In 1952 Santa brought me a slightly used O gauge Steel Mogul set, and I have loved all Chicago Flyer ever since.

I would like to bring to your attention an interesting variation of your beautiful  Shasta loo.  Several years ago I bought a Cal Stewart in Pasadena a BEAUTIFUL restored set of three Legionaire cars.  I didn't have a 4687 at the time but eventually found  a tired one on eBay--paying too much, of course.  It had the front and rear couplers like yours--they stepped up as they exited the underframe.  Well, much to my surprise, the loco would not couple to my cars.  The couplers were too high.  The ONLY way to make them couple was to flop them over, so they stepped DOWN, then reattach the tang on the lower side.  I was quite surprised to have to do thi, but a friend who has a huge eFlyer collection has several of these locos, and on some the couplers steped up and on others it stepped down. I guess it depended on what cars the loco came with from the factory. 

Ever heard of this?

Regards, Charles Seims

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles, 

Let me offer my welcome to the thread.    I'm glad that you are enjoying it.  Its always good to have another Flyer enthusiast join the ranks and share their experiences and observations about American Flyer.

You have made an interesting observation about couplers.  I have not paid much attention to them prior to this.  I know that different coupler heights are typical on certain series of cars in Lionel Standard Gauge engines and cars, but I had not noticed that in Flyer Wide Gauge.

I took a look at the pieces in my collection.  I have not had access personally to other collections nor have I seen many pieces in person that are not in my collection, so keep that in perspective in regard to my responses.

All of my electric outline Wide Gauge engines have two male couplers (one on each end), as illustrated below by one of the  #4644 engines  in my collection.

 

 All of the passenger cars and freight cars in my collection have a female coupler on one end and a male coupler on the other.

The engines all have couplers that step up once they have cleared the the frame of the engine. Just as you noticed on the Shasta.  I did notice that many of the cars have couplers that were bent out of alignment which I think comes from storage or handling.

What I did discover was that the step up that the male coupler takes varies among the types of cars.

 

     The male coupler on my Golden State Tender (from my Warrior set ) has a very minimal bend to it.

 

     The passenger cars on my 1928 President Special Set (the 19" cars in Rookie tan) also have a minimal upward bend to them.

 

      The one passenger car that I have from the 1927 President's Special (the 19" cars that are blue and lithographed) also has this same minimal bend to them.

 

I'm not sure why your Legionaire Cars (they are 19" in length aren't they?) would not mate with the Shasta.  There is a spacer or support on many of the passenger cars on the bottom that places the coupler at a different height.  Could it be that the spacer was left out when they were restored?  I don't doubt that there are different heights of coupler, especially if you have observed them in your friend's collection.

 

As far as reversing the coupler.  I have seen examples on eBay where the tang of the coupler is facing up instead of down, but I just assumed that someone had reassembled it that way in error.

 

You have raised an interesting question.  Does anyone else have any insight into Charles observation?

 

Is there any chance that you can post some photos of your cars and engine?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Mtlowefan]

I will take some photos in the next day or two.  I don't have a layout but will set some track up so there isn't an issue with flange depth.  What address do I use to forward photos?

Recently discovered another coupler oddity--couplers painted body color on two wide gauge freight cars (caboose and gondola) I found.  I haven't seen this variation before.

Chas. Seims

[Northwoods Flyer]

Charles,

In order to post photos to the thread you will have to open an account with an online photo hosting site like Shutterfly or Photobucket.  (I use Shutterfly)  Once you have uploaded your photos to a hosting site you can then post them here on the thread. With Shutterfly its as simple as copying the photo and pasting it into the body of your post.

If you prefer, you can send the photos to me by email and I will post them. I have sent my email to you through the message system here on the site.

I have never seen couplers that match the body color of the car.  I assume they must be green and red. The cars were usually painted seperately and hung to dry or put on racks before they were assembled. I would be interested in seeing photos.  The only time that I have seen something painted to match the body color of the car is on the Pocahontas cars where the trucks are painted green to match the color of the roof.  I have seen photos of several America and Pleasant View passenger cars that used the same green trucks.

Thanks for posting,

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Crossing Gates

NationWideLines,

Thanks for the clarification on the Crossing Gates.  I went back to the catalogs and to the examples in my collection to see if I could do a better job of identifying and showing the different crossing gates.

This is the accessory page from the 1925 catalog

 

This is the #2022 crossing gate with light.    It is cataloged from 1925 through 1927.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the #2021 Crossing Gate.  It is cataloged from 1925 through 1933

 

 

My 1925 catalog only has black and white illustrations.  The cover is in  color.  I'm not sure if that is original or if I have a reproduction, the catalog isn't marked as a reproduction.

 

In 1926 the illustations of the accessories have tinting added.

 

 

This is the #2022 from my collection.

 

 I left the christmas tree bulb in it because that is the way I bought it, and because it makes me smile.

 

This is the #2021 in my collection.

 

 

This is the #2021 variation in teal (blue green) that I have.

 

 

And a side by side view.

 

 

In 1928 the #2222(A) appears in the catalog and will continue to be cataloged through 1934

 

Please  notice that the placement of the light has changed.  It now is perpendicular to the arm, rather than parallel to the arm.

 

 

 

I don't have an example of this crossing gate with a red base in my collection yet, but I do have an example in the same teal (blue green) color.

 

 

 

 

I examined it more closely and discovered that it has been rewired.   So I changed the position of the lamp to being above the arm from below - as I photographed it in the previous posting.

 

In the 1936 catalog Flyer introduced a crossing gate with a different design, but they used the same number.  This is the #2222 (B)  New Crossing Gate with Light that was cataloged from 1936 through 1939.

 

 

And the example that I have in my collection.  Notice that the light has moved below the arm.

 

 

I think that this now correctly identifies the different crossing gates.  As soon as I find a #2222 (A) with a red base I will post it.

 

Its amazing to see the number of changes that a simple accessory went through over the years that it was cataloged.  I also wonder what the story is behind the teal colored variations.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer