"OUR" PLACE - SEE NEW THREAD!

[nickinwestwales]

Chris Fournier I see you there.......!!!!!!!!-long time ol buddy,sit down and try one-Lagavulin isnt it? -shoot-your just in time-we were going to auction off your effects on friday

[passengerfan]

Good Afternoon Tom Time for a quick CR and a round for the house.
I liked your Milwaukee Road write up but noticed one major named train was missing the COLUMBIAN. This train came into existencebefore the Olympian Hiawatha entered service and became the secondary train between Tacoma and Chicago. The COLUMBIAN was comprised of lightweight and heavyweight cars mixed together for most of its existence. Operated with 48 seat lightweight diners before WW II and head end cars. In its final years was a lightweight train with Geeps assigned for power in the non-electrified districts. Happened to have the pleasure of riding this train one time at the time when it carried a 14 - section Touralux car only. this car was the only sleeping car available on the train and part of the sections were crew dorm space. I believe this was about a year or two before the COLUMBIAN was discontinued. Rode the train from Seattle to Butte. Returned on the NP Mainstreeter another similar train the NP secondary Chicago - Seattle train although the NP assigned Passenger F units.

[siberianmo]

G'day All!

Cindy take a break ... I've got the bar for an hour or so! [tup]

troybetts Troy An Email has been sent to trolleyboy Rob in your behalf. He has an evening work schedule and will most probably get back to you at "oh dark thirty" North American time, that is! [swg] And yes, we think the guys who frequent this establishment are first and foremost "proper train" people. Couldn't have said it better myself! [swg]

Nick I've seen a couple of our so-called regulars do that very thing - and never Post a word. Don't get it - don't particuarly want to pursue it any longer. I've done as much as I can to generate and maintain interest. From here on in, the hand that I play is the one dealt. [swg]

passengerfan Al The Fallen Flag series that I have authored are from railroad books in my modest library. At no time should anyone think of my submissions as being the end-all of knowledge, they surely aren't. The headings should indicate the period of time that the reference material applies to (mid-50's to mid-60's, most generally). So, for example, if a train had a name that doesn't appear for the mid-1950's, but was rather popular back in the 30's or 40's, that's why. These were never intended to be all inclusive - that's why the headings are worded thusly:

QUOTE: Passenger trains of note:

It all has to be taken in context.

One of the problems with any of these threads is that at times only "snippets" of info get extrapolated - that causes consternation, wouldn't you agree [?]

Any information that can be added, as in the way our guys responded to the B&O yesterday is most reflective of what I've tried to achieve with these Posts. Sorry if they don't measure up to everyone's expectations all of the time.

Well - on to more important matters. Boris ring the bell! Al has graciously bought the house - again! [swg][tup]

Cheers!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[nickinwestwales]

Right,were was I ,Ah yes,set em up [4:-)]TOM we could be here a while TROY-Hi hows life down in the garden of England-Now a canny chap like ROB might think of trading for pix of the K&E.S.R rail busses etc................enjoy your Guinness buddy,there`s another back there to wash it down [tup] MANAGER TED-It`s both better and worse than it sounds--actual hedge gone these many years and bank in advanced state of dis-repair,cut back and levelled, fence posts mounted horizontally on uprights to form retaining wall,nothing fancy,just grunt work-downside is that our side of the street falls within National Park boundaries and Missisnick is high ranking county environmental officer.........[:-^].....................So,with no little trepidation,onto a new tack with Our Place-midweek layout visit,and as it was my idea---looks like I`m in the chair right [4:-)]TOM-keep these boys filled up ,they will more than earn it--So origins and all that---The present work-in-progress is an enlargement of it`s predecessor,but with the wrinkles ironed out. This was a 12`x8` plan published by Cyril Freezer ( a sort of Brit Linn Westcott) back in the sixties. The design was a double oval around a central operating well,one of the long sides carried a junction stn with single track branches joining from both directions in a complex (6 turnouts,2 diamonds)double jn,the inner branch dropped away inside the mains to a "city" terminal whilst the outer climbed three quarters round to a "country "term. above the end board. I had to shoe-horn It down into 9`x7` which created some problems but generally much quiet fun was had. On moving to our current abode I found myself with 16`x10` of complete blank canvas[^] original design altered so that both branches threw off to the "North" of the jn with 3-track balloon loop in tunnel at "south" end,with upper branch now having intermediate station on former term. location with line extended to relocated term at opposite end. A branch runs back from the high line into 3 more staging tracks above the balloon loop. This proved to be as much as I can comfortably handle,in terms of both building and operation. At the time,I was operating a mid-sized (30 locos,40 pass 100frt )collection of British `00`stock,and was able to give a fair representation of operations on the Somerset & Dorset Joint Rly,between Bath & Bournemouth West,with the appropriate Bristol-Bath and Southampton-Weymouth connections,plus "The Pines Express" and summer excursion traffic ( the rule of thumb for late-era S+D exc. traffic is -anything pulling anything,as long as it`s dirty ). All was proceeding well when I woke up one day to find I`m a Daddy-some years later and,to qoute Steve Earle " I woke up with a brand new plan"--a body of Canadian stock had been aquired in the interval,the running qaulities of which astonished me. And to be honest I had rather lost my way with where I was going. So,before we know it,the buildings are off,some (minimal) track modification and a vast amount of poring over maps ( useful ) & dispatching sister with camera ( rather less so ) a transition is being effected-Bath(green park) will mutate into Allandale,the Bristol branch becomes the Burlington line,Midsomer Norton shimmers into Bradford, Poole becomes the York Uni GO stn,with the remainder of the yard area there a rather generic `North York`. The low level branch no longer runs to Hamworthy Quay,instead another generic facility `Rutherford Yard` provides the bulk of switching for the `metro` area. so far,all is working rather nicely ( although I`m having a few probs with Athearn Bi-Levels[banghead] ) and the staging tracks under `Bradford`[banghead][banghead] The aquisition of a computer ,last year,has allowed progress to take place at exponential rate-I KNEW that stuff was out there !!. In addition,it has allowed me to meet all you splendid folks[^] on which sluttishly sycophantic note I will stop and have a bevy or two,later,nick[C=:-)]

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all.

A pint of Bathams and one of Nick's bacon butties if there is any left.
I am glad you liked the link to the Immingham Tramway TED and TOM. Some of the trackbed of the Tramway can be seen along side the freight only line which serves the chemical works and refineries which surround the docks.There have been a few railfan tours along this line.I believe the Great Central Railway which owned the docks were considering buying some fairly large(for our loading guage) 2-8-0s from the U.S. to work the expected traffic from the docks, when they opened, but this never came to be.

Well NICK really great info on the 57 Midland American 2-6-0s. As I said I can only vaugely remember seeing a photo of one and I can't recall ever reading any thing about them so MANY THANKS. tup].
Do you know where any of the BALDWIN 60cm 4-6-0Ts are in the U.K.[?].

Thanks for the Milwaukee Flag TOM. The depot in Green Bay W.I. is now a Brew pub and restaurant with a great railroad flavour.

I see another Englishman has called in. May I get a round in for all PETE.

[West Coast S]

Afternoon noon Tom and the gang...

Feels good to be to be done with Vegas.Shot of JWB if you please.
Afternoon...
Without further ado,,,,,Here for your enjoyment is what I know of one railroad war:

Upon reaching Pueblo Co, Santa Fe and the Rio Grande both sought to expand over the Continental Divide to tap into the valuable revenue from the mines and other sources. Both roads had different agendas however, Rio Grande envisioned a connection with the UP/CP at Salt Lake City, Santa Fe envisioned developing the Royal Gorge as a means to Salt lake City and future expansion to the Pacific Coast.

Engineers for both roads were aware that the Royal Gorge was the only route available, these same persons were also aware that there was room for only one line and that was tenous at best if the engineering difficulties could be overcome. Things came to a head upon reaching Pueblo with only a narrow canyon before them restricting progress.
The Silver panic of 1888 was in effect and the Rio Grande was suffering from cash flow and self induced legal complications and sought protection through the Lower Court while halting all construction.

Santa Fe took advantage of the situation and pushed surveyers into the Gorge, despite being admonished by the courts to cease all activity pending a decision as to ownership and right to build. Soon Santa Fe grading crews, in direct violation of the court order, were at work cutting a grade and erecting numerous bridges and laying several miles of track.

Rio Grande countered by ordering resumption of construction and leapfrogging survey teams from Big Sheep Canyon, south into the Gorge ahead of the Santa Fe crews who were working their way up from the northern end of the Gorge , also violating the direct court order, in such a enviable blocking position and with the case tied up in court, Santa Fe was seeking a quick fix to rid themself of the pesky intruders and claim exclusive rights to the Gorge and sought the solution through the employment of hired guns. Soon, Rio Grande countered by hiring their own militia. It wasn't long before fire met fire and armed Survey teams began confronting one another and employing explosives to undo each others advances as armed response became common place, though several were injured and considerable property dammage was done, no one was killed directly..

The Lower Court was livid at the gross disregard displayed by both roads and recommended to the Congress and the President that the the Army intervene to restore law and order, naturally the hired guns attacked the Army as well, with great loss among themselfs. A full scale investigation and investigative body was ordered by the US government to intercede and deterimine fault, penalities and recommendations. A moritorium was issued halting all rail construction in the United Sates until the investigation was concluded and all roads being subject to Federal review of their business practices.

Santa Fe and Rio Grande were forced to return to the court or be subject to Federal action for a legal solution. After twelve years of challenges and arguments the Supreme Court ruled the Rio Grande would have exclusive rights to the Gorge and dismissed Santa Fe's counter suit.

Santa Fe was served with a injunction and forced to cease any additional expansion into Colorado, Rio Grande was prohibited from expanding east into Kansas and was also requred to render payment in the amount of several million dollars to the Santa Fe for work already completed in Colorado, upon payment, Rio Grande would obtain ownership. Both roads were levied massive fines and restrictions by the court and the US Governement and subject to oversight for many years thereafter.


Ok, set em' up, round for the house!

Dave [8D]

[siberianmo]

G'day Gents!

Nothing like the power of suggestion - here I am watching the Astros beating the Braves 4 to 1 in the 4th inning while reading the Posts and the talk of beer has caused me pause. "Carol, a Coors Light please!" And there it is, in a nice frosty cold half litre glass from KCity's Golden Ox. Ummmmmmm. Power of suggestion wins again! [swg]

Nick Thanx for the rundown on your layout plans. There are so many "plans" out there that I think most of us wind up using our own iterations as we progress through the rigors of developing the layout of our dreams. At least I did.

By the by, what's the issue with the Athearns [?] Just curious. I used to be pretty much an all Athearn fan with my former pike. Once I put 'em all in display cases, I then went with Walthers Trainlline, Con-Cor, IHC and Rivarossi for passenger cars - AND - LifeLike Proto1000's for my RDC's. It wasn't that Athearn didn't "do it for me" it was more that I wanted the 85 ft size cars, whereas the Athearns were "shorty's."

Anyway, I'd still like to know what's available "out there" in the Ether world for track planning development ...

Appreciate, as always, the round! Boris ring it again! [tup] Wait a sec .... Nick is on the payroll - draws money from the tup upstairs in my private quarters. Hmmmm. Nah, he wouldn't engage in such activity ... [swg]

Pete As always, good info in your Post. One day - but who knows when [?] - perhaps a trip to the British Isles for railroadin' will happen! [yeah]

Glad you enjoyed today's installment of the Fallen Flags - Milwaukee Road! [tup] More to follow .........

Okay - Cindy has departed and Leon has arrived. So, I'll take my leave 'til later on! [tup] By the by - thanx for the round! [tup] Ring it again, Boris!

West Coast S Dave I see you there ... catch the response later!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Evenin' West Coast S Dave

In another life, a long time ago - I used to have business in Las Vegas on perhaps a quarterly basis over a span of a couple of years. It wasn't "fun' stuff - really was business. Got to see quite a bit of the "behind the scenes" stuff with the Casino guys and LE people. Some would think that's a strange combo - but there really was a good relationship for the most part. Story for another time and place .... Toronto in May 2006 perhaps.

Man oh man - if that story of the Santa Fe and Rio Grande is not in keeping with our theme 'round here of Classic Trains I don't know the definition! [tup][tup][tup] Almost has a Hollywood "ring" to it - like it's been made into a movie (probably Grade B), but the story line is sooooooo familiar. [swg]

People from other places in the world perhaps think of we Americans as violent with a violent history. Well, they are correct. But you know what [?] It's not so much that it's restricted to Americans - it's human kind - in my humble opinion. The Euro's can be really proud of themselves in history for the ravaging of South and Central America, plus Mexcio - specifically speaking of the Spanish "explorers." Then of course how about the "exterminations" of people that took place throughout Asia and Africa [?] Still going on as a matter of fact. Makes our railroad 'wars' look timid by comparison.

Thanx for the round - ring it again, Boris. [tup] By the by, Dave YOU are remiss in coming up with a "solution" regarding a "home" for our gold plated clapper. My suggestions are still "out there" .... what are yours [?]

Enjoy the evening!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[nickinwestwales]

Howdy fellow tipplers,just schlepped up to the village pub to see a man about a dog,as my old grandad used to say,and am sorry to record that their response to my imaginative efforts to provide a 3rd vocal part to Simon & Garfunkels greatest hits was,quite frankly, less than whole-hearted,call themselves a nation of singers......................soooo,whats new since I stepped out...............,just grab myself a bottle of Newcastle Brown Ale as there is an Englishman "In the chair" (Cheers PETE [tup]) and here we go-PETE-looks like you first up-bacon butties ALWAYS available,Heinz & H.P as reqd.-double fried eggs on request [tup][C=:-)],pic of Baldwin will be posted sunday-Tom has suggested freeze on mid-week photos,for reasons various,not least of which is increased loading time for pages (try M.R. "Weekend Photo Fun" on busy time.....like waiting for paint to dry)-Baldwins now-will have to go away and do homework. Baldwins then-from memory,Welsh Highland Railway -1,Glyn Valley Tramway -1,Ashover Railway -6 (poss. more )-have a useable shot of equivalent Hunslet 4-6-0t on plinth in the W.H.R(1964) car park,will add to list ([4:-)]TOM-I`d better start posting early for X mas here,starting to look like a three act opera).............and on the next stool along is.......... DAVE-Man-if they taught history like that in my school--I could SMELL the black powder--the only frame of reference I can find here is a much valued present from the Dad,a 1st edition of "The Authentic Life of Billy The Kid,the noted desperado" by Pat Garrett,sheriff of Lincoln County,N.Mex. edited by Maurice.G.Fulton--If I have the films right,he was the wee geeky guy with the glasses,who followed Garrett around-sadly,the frontispiece pic of young Mr Bonney himself is missing,but all the interstitial plates are still in place-some wonderful views of N.Mex way back when-and so different to the Hollywood version that people are supposed to accept,sorry,off-topic drift,......paddle desparately back to ..............[4:-)]TOM,another round for the steadfast here,and could you `goose` the volume on the juke-I`ve just fed in 3 whole dollars to hear the new stones album-a blinder,back to basics[^] The Athearn cars ( GO Transit box set ) have flanges so fine they look like a machining error,much of my rail is 30+ years old and well worn,also N.M.R.A standards not in use over here-.5mil diff. between B-2-B,for example between Brit & U.S off-the-shelf-----Model Power will run,as will cheap Bachmann--M.P. made in Jugoslavia,thus Euro std (14.2mm),B/Mann-wide wheelsets to use in either market--As to the small matter of my paying for rounds with money abstracted from the bathtub,guilty as charged-think of it as re-cycling in action---this way I can spend my earnings the way I used to-enjoying the company of like-minded folk-I will get round to marking it all up in "The Book" and passing it on to Herr Manager Kramer,as soon as he returns from Lazy Otto`s house of Monacles,Manacles and home cooked pie,whence he adjourned in a state of high dudgeon earlier after a chance remark concerning the lack of a good balsamic vinegar for table service-Such is the cost of life in the fast lane,..............gonna take a beer break now,see who pops up,back in a bit n

[West Coast S]

Howdy Tom... I suggest we donate the gold plated clapper to AWK as a perch, hopefully pecking on it won't produce a gold plated beak[:O]

True, somehow our railroad wars don't begin to compare with Cortez's wrath on
Central & South America, certainly not the conquest of the known world by Alexander the Great. I would imagine, somehere in every railroads archives, regardless of geographical location are similar stories, we are a proud and determined people and these were indeed exciting times in a young nation.

It occured to me in idle thought , Can you imagine, say , Conrail and NS retaining the services of hired guns and outlaws during the merger to suit their particular interests and greed? Can you imagine the Federal response to such activities, given the size and power of government today?

Tom...It was the subject of a movie, Rio Grande, I believe that's the correct title, too much smooching and other wow effects and not enough emphisis on actual events, heck ,if the involved persons behaved as dipicted on film the dang line would have never gotten built, but the local population would have increased tenfold...Nuff said [}:)]

Set 'em up for the evening..on me

Dave[8D]

[Trainnut484]

Hello Tom and everyone. Darn I missed Cindy. Oh well maybe tomorrow, Leon I'll have a Miller Lite. Dave great story on the Santa Fe and Rio Grande war. I have a movie that I taped years ago on the Turner Classics channel or one of those classic movie channels called "The Denver and Rio Grande. I think it was made in the fifties or sixties. It's about the Rio Grande and it's surveyors competing for land with another road (I think it's a ficticious road). Anyway, it's a good movie.

I have a war story to share, and it's from my history of American railroads report I did for a college English class. The time of all this was in the 1830s:

The new railroads did not have it easy during their infancy. The canal and turnpike people saw their business dwindle, and turned to physical violence. They teamed into mobs and vandalized sections of track, and ambushed train crews while the train was stopped. Even the law made it hard for the railroads, by putting in stipulations for new charters. New railroads could not enter certain city boundaries to connect with other railroads, and a railroad could not haul freight when a competing canal was open, or charge lower rates. Some railroads had to pay the state anything earned over ten percent, even thought they have not earned a profit.

In some cases, a new railroad would be required to give back the line after a given time period. A New England state required railroads to pay every landowner the price he set on any given land. Of course, the small canal and turnpike towns that drove the railroads away ceased to exist. Three thousand miles of track had been laid by 1840, and tripled by 1850 in despite of all the loopholes the railroads had to jump through.

Definately rough times back then for building a railroad.

Another ML please Leon....thanks.

Russell

[nickinwestwales]

O.K-for those of you,who like me,have nothing better to do at this time of night,sit back,let [4:-)]TOM fill your glass and I`ll try to put a bit of life into a pretty flat layout tour-The trains-well,I`m running 4 passenger workings at the moment-Bradford GO train (see notes above )--Walthers F40PH + Athearn 3-car bi-level set,"Northlander"---Atlas FP7a+3 M.P.Budd cars,"Northland" night train-B/mann F9a+F7b plus M.P.cars(bge,slp,dnr)-last and least plausible,"Algonquin Ranger" land cruise,--F40PH (Walthers again ) in VIA grey & blue hauling a very mixed 5 car set Also a number of freight workings,#410-ex Gravenhurst collects at all stops (B/mann GP35) #450-ex North Bay( O.N.R F.P7a+a-pwr & dummy -Atlas & Athearn),Detroit-Capreol( Totally bogus R.S.11,G.T.W.livery(M.P.),requires F9 (B/mann) ` pilot `to lift load up " the bank"-Burlington line locals handled by M.P. F2,G.T.W F3a also works in on Detroit-Toronto `Local`--switching and transfer work around Rutherford yard,back & forth to Don Valley yard and around and about is left with the 2 M.P GP9s,sure there are a couple of Northbounds I`ve missed out-ROB-ball in your court there------O.K--Thanks to anyone and everyone who has stayed with us so far,Leon,I believe you have the bar,moonlight mile for me,sleep the sleep of the just gentlemen,for who knows what tomorrow may bring,night all,nick[C=:-)]

[siberianmo]

Hello All!

If I could put these past couple of days worth of Posts in a jar, I sure would! What a great outpouring we've had since the "air was cleared" on Monday, both here and by Email. Many heartfelt thanx to those of you who are making this fun to particpate in and with! [tup][tup][tup]

Nick One of the more humorous times I spent in a bar back in 'round 1967 was in NYC when Simon & Garfunkel's "Mrs. Robinson" was still on the charts. A couple of us were in a local pub in downtown Manhattan, and for whatever the reason (as if we neeeded one) each time that song played on the Juke - one of the guys would chime in - off key - but so funny it just cracked me up. All these decades have gone by, and I still laugh to myself about that outing! [swg] I do think that was right 'round the time I put my right hand into some "draft dodging punk's" nose earlier in the day. Called me a "baby killer." The cops were really nice to ME - not so for him. Oh well .......

There's an empty pig's feet jar over there by the Juke, filled with quarters - 5 plays for a quarter! Why are you spending your money [?] [%-)][%-)] The volume control is on the lower right side, or you can use the one behind the bar by the register! Geesh - you'd think you were unfamiliar with the joint! [swg]

Those Athearn wheel flanges sound like something to take up with their customer service people. Before they sold out, they had a pretty good system working. My suggestion is to begin it by Email and be persistent. A suggestion is to perhaps change out some wheels with equipment that you rarely operate - maybe those either on sidings or on display - at least until you can get some replacements.

That tale you confessed to regarding the funds from the tub would probably sound a lot better to me had I consumed a few more Coors Lights! [swg] Whatever works, mate! I know you're good for it ......... [tup]

By the by, I received your reply to my Email - thanx! And also appreciate your understanding about trying to keep our pix for Sunday Photo Posting Day! I may have misunderstood your intentions the other day when you mentioned a mid-week layout planning discussion ... Mea culpa.

Can't imagine you runnin' trains at the hour it must be in West Wales! But then again, why not [?] It's much more challenging with a brew in each hand! [swg]

Dave Now that's a great idea for use of the overpriced gold plated clapper - Awk could use a perch befitting his status 'round here. I like it - thanx! [tup][tup][tup]

[yeah] That would be a riot indeed if the "methods" of old were employed today between the railroads. What an imagination! [swg] The LE response would probably make Waco look like child's play. And that's not to denegrate the officers who put it on the line - mine is more directed at the so-called leadership of the day. Better stop with this while I'm ahead ....

Rio Grande, eh [?] I'll check that out on my Cinema search - I just KNEW it had a "ring" to it as I read what you Posted. Would be worth seeing again - given that it was so long ago that watching it now would be as if it were the first time.

Russell Good having you back at the bar on a regular basis! Things 'round here are much more interesting when the guys have interaction, don't ya agree [?]

Appreciate the info on that movie - Rio Grande or Denver & Rio Grande. Those kinds of stories surely make for great scripts!

In reading what you had to say, seems to me that the idea put forth over the years about the "greedy" railroads, surely takes on a different light when courts ordered this 'n that. Even the makeup of the courts in those days surely were as questionable and dubious as some are today. The more things change, the more they stay the same - someone far wise than I, supposedly said.

If it's Cindy you want to see - she comes back on at 9 AM tomorrow and Friday. Works 'til 5 PM, when Leon takes over.

Catch y'all later or in the 'morrow! Leon has the bar.......

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Hey Guys .... I just noticed that something's not quite right on page 128 - lots of Posts are missing. Wonder what's up [?] Surely we haven't "transgressed." Shouldn't be anything to worry about - I think it's more of a "glitch" with the site. Wait it out until the morning - then I'll pursue it.

Okay - Part II - it's now 10:26 PM and things are normal on page 128 ..... Gremlins! [swg]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[pwolfe]

HI Tom and all.

A pint of the usual and a round for the house please.

Many thanks DAVE RUSSELL AND TOM for the railroad wars posts [wow][yeah].You can almost smell the cordite.Thanks TED for starting the subject. It seems the railroad builders were a law to themselves in them days.In England there was a lot of inter company rivalry in the early days. When a line had running powers over another line the signalman (dispatcher) for the owning railway often would delay the others trains as much as possible.

One of the worst examples was in Nottingham a Midland Railway stronghold. The Great Northern built a line to the outskirts of the City and running rights to the CIty center over Midland tracks, where they built a depot and engine shed. One night early on, after the G.N.engine was shedded for the night, the Midland removed the tracks thus stopping the G.N.services untill ordered to replace them by the courts.

On the subject of MOVIES. The first film I was taken to the cinema to see, was an American film. Which I think was called THE GREAT LOCOMOTIVE CHASE or something like that. This would be in the early to mid 50s I think the locomtives were fairly modern steam locos not the early Western type although I could be wrong. No doubt one of the regulars can help me here. [tup]

Hope you enjoyed the Newcastle Brown NICK[tup] liked the description of the services on your layout a bit different from the S&D railway. Thanks for the eggs and HP sauce.

Hopefully one day TOM we can have an OUR PLACE outing to OLD BLIGHTY armed with 1st class Brit-rail passes.

One for the road please LEON and OK I'll buy a small packet of nuts for AWK but I'll let BORIS give them to him [:-,] PETE.

[trolleyboy]

Good evening Tom I see your name is still here.I'll take a late night Irish coffee while I catch up. I'll owe you a round again for missing yesterday wirking 7 strait took it's toll I fell a sleep at 8:30 last night and didn't resurface till this morning at least it's / was my day off. Today was my aniversary a s well so iyt's been a busy last couple.[tup][swg] I've thouroughly enjoyed the B&O exchange beteween everyone's switch seems to have been flicked by that one espeacally manager ted I think he is still on cloud nine.For me theirs was likely the best calssiest firsy generaation diesel paint scheme. That royal blue and grey just was the cats **** on the FT's FA's and F3's and 7's. Pwolfe and Ted Pete those urls are wonderfull i haven't been able to completely go through them yet but Ted's right wow what a treasure trove thank-you~! Nick Good info on your pike quite the ambitious breadth and scope you are undertaking. I don't have theeir web site info. But the H.O.M.E.S ( ho model engineers society ) This is a Hmailton Ontario based club they modelled TH&B CN/CP and their own home road The Bay City Lines in an enclusive mid ontario set up. they cover Port Colbourne to North Bay with all station stops in between! try to google search for them their layout is to die for ( so's the monthly dues [XX(] ) Troy thanks for poping by. As I mentioned earlier I haven't read the email yet i will likley tonight or tomorrow. A gscale PCC should be a thing of beauty. I have some shots on my railimages site from our museum, these will mostly be broadside shots. I can easily go up and do a walk round photo shoot for you so I'll get some speacifics from you soon. Ted and the gang I had recieved a bit of NO info for you. OPur museums head mechanic finally got hold of the maintenance supervisor in NO. Apparently the Charles street line stayed above water and had little other then wind damage. This is the line all the classic vintage aka real streetcars ran on. Minor repairs and their back up and running. the river and canal lines were underwater along with the new techno clones. as *** figured these cars are a mess all the electronics are shot and they will need full rehabilitation as well as the lines and barns on those two lines. But they say that they will be back up and running so that's good news[tup] well folks I've a million emails to catch up on so i'm off for now. Oh tom Like your latest FF as well. The Miluakee road is another semi fav of mine. heavy duty mainline electrics can't get better than that. Not to mention the swanky tail end cars they sold to CN !!! That's it for me tonight folks catch you all tomorrow. Rob

[siberianmo]

Hello Pete

I've been watching trolleyboy Rob logged on and off this thread for about the last hour .... wonderin' when he's gonna Post! Now, if that isn't a waste of time, what is [?] [swg] Actually, I'm watching the Yankees and Angels playoff game - tied at 2 in the 7th inning.

So the railroad wars were not restricted to North America, eh [?] Well, that shouldn't surprise anyone! Intimidation and coercive force is as old as mankind itself .....

There was a time we had really thought about a trip to "Merry Old," however I doubt that will occur anytime soon. We talked about this on our Amtrak trip ..... It surely would be nice, especially with the 1st Class rail passes - the ONLY way to go! [tup][tup]

Smart move letting Boris feed Awk - you are quick to pick up on his bad habits! [swg]

Thanx for stopping by - and by the by, I replied to your Email. [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[trolleyboy]

Okay i came back had so much catch up reading to do I thought that I was back in highschool. [:O][XX(] There were some train wars in canada too Pete they just weren't shooting at each other. During the Reil rebellion in 1885 the mostly completed ( in ontario ) CPR was used to ferry the CDN Militia and Northwest mounted police to what's now Manitoba. The soldiers had to portage through parts of the candain shield as the CPR track gangs were still blasting tunnels and bridging muskeg. The whole Northwest rebellion story is a good read. russell i enjoyed your post on the appropriate rules for the company stores. I'm not at all supprised ny the sunday oppening rules. frankly i'm supprised they even allowed emergency oppenings back then. The roads up here did some similar things. ther wasn't sunday streetcars operating in Toronto untill the TTC was formed in 1921. Port arthur and Fort William Ontario ( now Thunderbay ) didn't allow their street railways to operate on sundays till the mid thirties. Regina in Sask was the same as well. well gents i'm done for sure this time. rob

[siberianmo]

Awwwwwwwright, all's well with the world - trolleyboy Rob is back! [yeah][wow]

Whaddyamean, YOUR Anniversary - does Heather know this [?] Hmmmmm - let's see, it'll cost ya a couple of Blue's in Toronto to keep me quiet! [swg]

Thought that inquiry by troybetts Troy would flick your switch. Another benefit of these forums, the healthy exchange of info. [tup]

[yeah] These past couple of days have been the best - actually began on Monday afternoon. Unbelievable exchanges and Posts. Too much to expect it to last - but just goes to show how much enthusiasm many of our guys have for this topic of Classic Trains.

Looked like we were in for some difficulty a couple of hours ago when page 128 dropped all but the first two Posts. Stayed that way for an hour that I know of. Kept using "refresh," but nothing changed. Logged off and on - still no change. Used my other computer (this is a laptop) - no change. Then - just like "that" all returned to normal. Ya gotta love it!

Alas - the NHL season began tonight and my Blues got whipped 5-1 by the dreaded Red Wings. Only 81 more games to go! [swg] <groan>

I gotta get ready to pack it in for the nigth and just wanted to see if we could be on line at the same time. Your work schedule is unreal - but that's why they pay you the BIG bucks, eh [?] [swg]

Catch ya in the 'morrow ........ [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

THURSDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

G’day All!

A quick observation: We have had a rather busy week as the guys have really been active with the Posts. One thing is that it’s difficult to keep up with them all, however, my intent is to acknowledge everyone who makes a contribution. That should be what we all try to do – recognize one another’s efforts. [tup]

Reminder: Tonight is Fish 'n Chips Nite and whatever else Nick [C=:-)] may wi***o add to his Nick's Picks Menu Board! [swg] [dinner] Dinner starts at 5 PM! [tup]

Okay – you know the routine – bakery goods, coffee and light breakfasts! [swg]

Info for the Day:

Comin’ Events:

Saturday, Oct 8th : OKTOBERFEST!
Sunday, Oct 9th Sunday Photo Posting Day!
Wednesday, Oct 12th: The 6th month Anniversary of the creation of ”Our” Place.

INDEX

Index pages for Fallen Flags, etc.

Generic URL: Just insert the index page in place of “106,” copy ‘n paste ‘n “go,”

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=106&TOPIC_ID=35270

-or- insert the index page in the address portion of this page (at the top).

106 – SP
106 – MoPac
108 – WP
109 – Frisco
112 – CNR (passenger ops)
112 – CNR Super Continental Time Table
112 – Heralds of the Fallen Flags
113 - Passenger Train Nostalgia #1 “Start ups” 1800’s & early 1900’s
114 – ACL
115 – SCL
116 - D&RGW
117 – Passenger Train Nostalgia #2 Vista-Dome sleeper observation-lounge
118 – RI
119 – D&H
120 - PRR
121 – Passenger Train Nostalgia #3 Canadian Pacific Hotels & Lodges
122 – NYC
124 – A Tale of Classic Trains – BC Rail RDC trip
124 – UP (passenger ops)
125 – AT&SF
127 – B&O
127 – B&O Strata-Dome ad
127 – B&O Encor! ad
128 – CM&StP

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 05:01:31 (127)

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 07:14:14 (127) Wednesday’s Info & Summary

(3) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 07:32:03 (128) reply to Trainnut484 – pwolfe – nickinwestwales

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 07:59:25 (128) Fallen Flag CM&StP

(5) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 08:00:58 (128)

(6) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 08:06:11 (128)

(7) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 09:12:46 (128)

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 11:23:50 (128) reply to nickinwestwales & Theodorebear, etc.

(9) troybetts Troy Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 13:10:02 (128) First visit

(10) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 13:25:48 (128) Welcome to troybetts

(11) troybetts Troy Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 13:39:28 (128)

(12) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 14:18:59 (128)

(13) passengerfan Al Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 14:26:09 (128)

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 15:17:07 (128) reply to troybetts – nickinwestwales – passengerfan

(15) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 15:45:20 (128)

(16) pwolfe Pete Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 15:49:30 (128)

(17) West Coast S Dave Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 17:27:27 (128)

(18) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 17:32:51 (128) reply to nickinwestwales & pwolfe

(19) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 19:18:31 (128) reply toWest Coast S

(20) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 19:53:31(128)

(21) West Coast S Dave Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 19:56:52 (128)

(22) Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 20:15:58 (128)

(23) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 21:18:12 (129)

(24) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 21:24:49 (129) reply to nickinwestwales – West Coast S – Trainnut484

(25) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 21:35:05 (129) Something strange!

(26) pwolfe Pete Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 22:59:21 (129)

(27) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 23:18:38 (129)

(28) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 23:22:16 (129) reply to pwolfe

(29) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 23:33:52 (129)

(30) siberianmo Tom Posted: 05 Oct 2005, 23:39:38 (129) reply to trolleyboy

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[trolleyboy]

Morning Tom. Trying to talk to me real time's gonna kill you be carefull, I can always send smoke signals [swg] BTW I have sent Troy a message through the forum so if he doesn't get it i hope he checks back. Responded to your email(s) as well. sorry bout your blues my maple leafs lost the NHL's first shootout to Ottawa tonught as well. On the upside we got a point and Eric Lindros scored on the downside Sundin took a puck to the eye in the first period not an auspicious star to the year.[tdn] I'm only going to get busier from now on xmas is comming. BTW I don't dink blue so you will have to settle for Molsons or Black label in Toronto [tup] pwolfe Pete is there a shot of that NA tram in any either of those sites you posted. I did see several cars that for all the world look like PTC brills from Chicago? I still haven't done a deep search of either site yet but I do like what I have seen so far. I only wi***hat our mueseum had the space and money that the good folks at critch have. A truly awesome ste up. A couple of our board members were there last fall and they are still raving about it.Anyway I'm definatly off now later folks. Rob

[siberianmo]

Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy (CB&Q) Burlington Route

Headquarters: Chicago, IL

Mileage:

1950: 11,000 (includes subsidiaries, Fort Worth & Denver and Colorado & Southern)

Locomotives in 1963:

Steam: 10 Diesel: 691

Rolling stock in 1963:

Freight cars: 41,099 Passenger cars: 925

Principal lines in 1950:

Aurora, IL-Minneapolis, MN via Rochelle, IL
Chicago-Omaha-Denver via Lincoln, NE
Galesburg, IL-Kansas City & St. Joseph, MO via Quincy, IL
Savanna & Rock Island, IL-Paducah, KY
Burlington, IA-St. Louis via Quincy
Omaha-Kansas City via St. Joseph
Napier, MO (St. Joseph)-Oxford,NE
Table Rock, NE-Billings, MT via Lincoln
Billings-Galveston, TX via Thermopolis & Cheyenne, WY & Denver
Ashland, NE-Sioux City, IA
Galesburg-Peoria, IL
Kansas City-St. Louis (trackage rights on GM&) Kansas City-Mexico, MO)

Passenger trains of note:

Afternoon Zephyr (Chicago-Twin Cities)
Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr (Chicago-Lincoln)
American Royal Zephyr (Chicago-Kansas City)
Black Hawk (Chicago-Twin Cities
California Zephyr (Chicago-Oakland, CA; jointly operated with D&RGW and WP)
Denver Zephyr (Chicago-Denver-Colorado Springs
Empire Builder (Chicago-Seattle & Portland, jointly operated with GN and SP&S)
Exposition Flyer (Chicago-Oakland; jointly operated with DR&GW and WP; replaced by California Zephyr in 1949)
Kansas City Zephyr (Chicago-Kansas City)
Mainstreeter (Chicago-Seattle & Portland, operated jointly with NP and SP&S)
Morning Zephyr (Chicago-Kansas City
Nebraska Zephyr (Chicago-Lincoln)
North Coast Limited (Chicago-Seattle & Portland, jointly operated with NP and SP&S)
Pioneer Zephyr (West Quincy-Hannibal, MO)
Sam Houston Zephyr (Dallas-Houston)
Texas Zephyr (Denver-Dallas)
Western Star (Chicago-Seattle & Portland, jointly operated with GN and SP&S)
Zephyr Rocket (Minneapolis-St. Louis; jointly operated with RI


Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[Anonymous]

So much worthy input, I don't know where to begin. Chrissy, let me begin at the beginning: a 'round for the house and Crown 'n' soda with a lemon twist, if you please. Knowing full well I can't "touch all bases" with one Post; I'll "chip away" in a piecemeal fashion. Dave, fine treatise on the A.T.S.F. vs. D. & RGW "turf wars." Snata Fe's management was agressive indeed and had some "run ins" with Espee as well. Its also true that there was a "Wild East and North America" during those heady days of "do or die" expansion. YesTom, I have recovered from the euphoria of the B. & O. Fallen Flag and no sooner coming out of "withdrawal" than another favorite (C.B. & Q) "blows my mind."[^] Rob, pwolfe "did a number" on our taste buds for traction too, eh? Say, I wouldn't mind giving a P.C.C. in G guage a "go" myslef. It could keep my Cincinnati interurban in good company. Good news from New O., BTW. Now, with Dave's supplement on the Pacific Electric and maybe a taste of Sacramento Northern thrown in, plus your own abundent well spring of Radials and Trolleys; there nothing for it, except for to "pitch in." I'll "kick in" what I can on some mid-western Interurban (Raidial) action in the "hay day" of their operations. Indiana Rwy. and the North Shore Lines occur to me first but not on this post, not just yet but soon.[tup]

Who couldn't love those Milwaukee Road big electrics and smooth side passengers with the B-29 observations biding a fond farewell to crowded platforms of yore?[:D] Can you hear the traction motors whinning way up front? How about the bright silver fluted sides Royal Zephyr idleing while trainmen in sharp dark blue w/gold piping uniforms assist passengers into those "new fangled" articulated coaches? Then, a surprising triad blast from the air chime instead of the ususal moan of the steam whistle. Yes, at one time it was all real. There are pix of the K.C. Zephyr and U.P. City of Los Angeles 10,000 (gas dissilite (sp?) parked side-by-side at K.C. Union Station (circa 1940's) They appear as "David and Goliath," such was the disparity in their size and form. Russell, that photo can be found in the "Star" article I mentioned before. Indeed, I agree with Tom that Fallen Flags is doing exactly what it is intended to do: "flick a switch" and it works very well. Given the printed dates and labels, one could hardly expect this to be an "end all" reference for every train on every Road. From the response, I wouldn't change a thing.

Okay, that's enough for a single posting, lest I overstay my welcome. I've noticed a few members dozing off and I definitely "can take a hint."[zzz] SNOAR, gruffle, gruffle. Oh, its only Boris! Don't wake him please, allow me...CLANG, CLANG, CLANG heh, heh, heh. Happy rails all.

[Anonymous]

Good evening.
My thanks to Tom and Rob.Rob,I have sent an E-mail.
I must say,after actually reading the entire thread,that this is nothing like the tedious coffeshop threads.It actually deals with information.Well done to you all.
I hope you don't mind if I pop in from time to time.
Thanks again,Troy

[siberianmo]

G'day Gents!

Perhaps "Our" Place has come of age, so to speak. For after continued pleas and rerferences to the purpose of this thread -that being the discussion of Classic Trains - we've arrived at a point where it is happenin' and happenin' regularly. [tup]

In reviewing the earlier pages, we must credit our friend at the bar, coalminer3 CM3 for being "on track" so often. His Posts have been along the lines of what some of us have tried to maintain from the "get go." So, here's to you CM3 - wherever you are this fine day! - Ring the bell, Boris, a round for the house and Cheers to CM3. [yeah]

Thanx to all for the Email responses. Our lines of communications are healthy and vibrant. [tup] Perhaps some good came from this past weekend's confusion.

Now to the responses:

Rob as a friend of mine used to say back in NYC -

QUOTE: You don't want that I should have tell ya again whut I said that you don't seem to remember very well!

Vito the Hit was a man of his "woid" and his "woid" jolted reality into the hearts 'n minds of most men he came to "know." So, once again I repeat: When we're in Toronto, it will be Blue as in LaBatts. It doesn't matter what YOU drink - to keep ME quiet about your verbal transgression, a couple of Blue's will do quite nicely! Get it [?] Okay, Vito rest easy - the guy's "alright." [:O]

The rail "wars" in Canada are stories worth hearing, and if available - viewing. In a time that no longer exists, the manner in which Canadian authorities handled those situations was much more "civil." However, aside from tipping our hats to a "kinder and gentler way," the shoot 'em ups and knock 'em downs always seem much more exciting. Sorry -just the innate "violent American" in me! [swg]

Ted A tip of the cap to ya, my friend for your continuing support and on-the-mark assessment of the impact and purpose of the Fallen Flag series. Thanx! [tup][tup][tup] Those submissions have triggered more positive and interaction amongst the guys than anything else experienced at the bar since our inception on April 12th, 2005.

You really have a wonderful way with words and I appreciate reading your refereences to "traction motors whinning" and "trainmen in sharp dark bvlue w/gold piping uniforms," brings vivid scenes to mind. Reading can be such a joy - but only when there are authors out there to make it so. [tup][tup]

By the by, do you have a URL or two from the KC Star to guide us along with the pix you mentiioned [?]

Okay - now a question [?] Who in the blazes is Chrissy [?][%-)][%-)] Where in the world did you find her, huh[?] OR have you perhaps confused the name with our gal, Cindy[?] [%-)][%-)] Now, once viewed, Cindy most assuredly will not be forgotten, in name or anything else! [wow][yeah][}:)][:-,]

Okay - time for me to head to the "office" and catch up on some admin stuff. [sigh] Cindy has the bar (oh I wish!)

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Ooooooops, I see a Post requiring acknowledgment ......

troybetts Troy Two days in a row - well, that could indicate the start of something good! [tup] Now that you've taken the time to research our pages a bit more thoroughly, and perhaps with an obective point of view, let me offer this:

We began on April12th for the purpose of discussing Classic Trains while having some fun doing it. But even before that, a couple of us were just at the point of exasperation with the manner in which "business" was being conducted on the more "open topic" threads found on several forums. One guy even went so far as to Post his opinion as a separate topic with the result being a barrage of defensiveness bordering on attacks upon the author. This was the impetus I needed to create this thread. It's working.

Of course you are most welcome to join us whenever time permits and to hoist a tankard or two with us as we over imbibe 'round here from time to ttime! [swg] Of course, we'd appreciate your offerings regarding Classic Trains too! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Cheers Tom.
Classic trams I could probably do(I was reared with them).Also classic trains, but I would have to involve my father for the info.
If you could keep a straight glass on the corner of the counter for my Guinness I would love to return.
Regards,Troy

[siberianmo]

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #4

Here’s something to ponder with regard to our appreciation and fascination with
Classic Trains. Check this out (from The Official Guide of the Railways – 1956)

Did you know that the Canadian National Railways also owned and operated hotels in major cities along their main lines [?] Check these out:

:

CANADIAN NATIONAL HOTELS, LTD.

City...…………....…Name..…..……………Rooms..…..Open

Ottawa, ON.………. Chateau Laurier……… 550……… All year
Winnipeg, MN.…… The Fort Garry.………. 265...….... All year
Edmonton, AB.…… The MacDonald……... 480……… All year
Saskatoon, SK...… The Bessborough……. 260……… All year
Vancouver, BC.…... Hotel Vancouver.……. 560...…… All year
Halifax, NS.….…… The Nova Scotian…… 150.……… All year
Charlottetown, PE.. The Charlottetown…... 110……… All year
St. John’s, NL.…… Newfoundland Hotel… 140……… All year
Montreal, QC.……. Queen Elizabeth……... ----……… Under construction

Note: Hotel Vancouver operated jointly by CNR and CPR.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all.

A pint of Bathams and can you put me down for the Fish and Chips later please[^][tup].

ROB I'm glad you liked the web-sites [tup].I am trying to get in touch with my mate back in England as I am sure he will some more info on the Immingham cars. I wish I had one of my pre 1960 IAN ALLEN COMBINED VOLUMES over here as I am sure that would have the info.

ROB, TED and all I dont know if you gentlemen have heard of the ISLE OF MAN [?] A relativly small island between England and Ireland. The place is like a time warp for railfans, with a narrow gauge steam and 2 electric railways if you like here is a web site.

http://www.iomguide.com/electricrailway.php

Tom thanks for the Flags I think there is a Burlington Route steam loco preserved in a park in St Josepth M.O.

You will have to get me signed up with Inspector Doyle I have found a web site on the MENTIS Classic Car it is normally based in K.C. and is of Canadian origin.The site is

http:www.morail.com/cars_for_charter.htm

Glad to see TROYBETTS again. I believe Tenderton is the home of some American built U.S.A. class 0-6-0 Tank engines perhaps TROY could let us know if any are in working order [?].

Great post on the Canadian railroad war.[tup] Any more[?].

I hope to call in later PETE.

[BudKarr]

Good day barkeep - I think I'll try one of those straight glasses of Guinness and also one of your sandwiches - make it an Italian sub.

Quite an interesting week that you have had here since my last visit. Very much interaction which has no doubt helped cheer Tom the Proprietor beyond measure. That is good.

That series on the Baltimore & Ohio brings back many memories of fine routes and finer trains. Really appreciated that company and was sorry to see it merge and ultimately disappear from the railroad landscape.

I see you have one of those guys who frequents this place with considerable knowledge about riding trains. I am not so sure that his perspective is in focus. My vote is for floodlights, by the way. Makes much more sense and why argue with the advertisement?

There are no other threads out there with as much shared knowledge as what I have seen here. That includes forums on other web sites that I have frequented over the years. Good job by all concerned.

Looking at that CNR hotels advertisement with the "under construction" phase of the Queen Elizabeth hotel in Montreal surely is worth a smile. I have stayed at that hotel and it is a keeper. When in Montreal these days, there are so many more modern and perhaps up scale hotels, however, the QE is my choice. Used to have business there quite often - but no longer. Once the Englilsh language wars took off, so did my business interests. Moved out .....

I may be in Scandanavia for a trip - business. Have been up to Bergen, Norway by train and throughout Sweden as well on the X2000. Always like my time there - although the politics are difficult to take.

One more brew please - make it an Ansel.

BK