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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, November 9, 2023 12:46 PM

If you mean the New York metro area, then New York Railways car 6000, the "Broadway Battleship", an early low-floor design modelled after some cars used for a while in Pittsburgh.  Photos show an enclosed lower deck and open-sided upper deck, which probably came with window panels for winter use.  I think its work life was short - it was underpowered with two motors on its Maximum Traction trucks, and was considered slow to load.  Similar, but single-level, Broadway Dragons were considered more successful.

"Eventide" and "Nocturne" spent at least some of their lives in PRR service.  Both cars were Pullman-owned.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, November 9, 2023 10:07 AM

The only vehicles that come to mind are Pullman sleepers "Eventide" and "Nocturne".  They ran for a while in Chicago-Des Moines service on the Rock Island.  They were duplex-single-room cars.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 9, 2023 7:41 AM

OK, here is one:  The pre-WWII LIRR step-up-step-down double-deckers are commonly thought of to be the very first double-deck rail passenger equipment in the New York City area, and they did last long in the post-WWii era.  There was one rail passenger vehicle that proceded them.  Whose?  Route?   Description, please.  What change in operations caused its removal from passenger service?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 8, 2023 6:19 PM

I'm still thinking.  Anyone else with something interesting, go ahead and say.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:07 PM

We have a winner.  Overmod, you're up.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:06 AM

I knew nothing about the Oklahoma Railway or the Oklahoma Belt Railroad until you asked this question.

Built by them circa 1929.  Then Union Electric 603-604 in 1946 (this was Layng's great and interesting attempt at making an interurban electric line work) until the wheels came off the effort in 1947.  Then Crandic 72 and 73 a year later.  Roarin' Elgin got them in 1955.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 10:11 AM

Chicago Aurora & Elgin locomotives 4005 and 4006 were probably the last equipment purchased by the line.  Which roads were the previous owners of these steeplecabs?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 21, 2023 7:49 PM

I had thought, for some probably unaccountable reason, that the switch from Northern Central to the electrified main and then up the C&PD at Havre de Grace was something that occurred by the time in the Fifties that the B&O competition from Washington started going by way of P&LE and trains like the Liberty Limited abruptly became uncompetitive.

Perhaps the B&O long-distance train-off decision in 1958 came before PRR could make the necessary operational adjustments...

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 21, 2023 3:47 PM

Right  

Next question, please.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 19, 2023 10:10 AM

The Chicago-Washington and St.Louis-Washington service was re-routed from the Northern Central route between Balltimore and Harrisburg to the electrified Columbia & Port Deposit branch.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 19, 2023 8:11 AM

May 1st 1971, Amtrack rerouted the continued service between major cities from an historic passenger route to route that nedver had passenger service,,  Explain.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 19, 2023 6:48 AM

The Bathtub train originated in Kohler WI, at the Kohler plant.  The train consisted of CNS&M Merchandise Despatch cars, along with one or more of the TMER&L box motors modified by Cold Spring Shops to MU with CNS&M equipment.  The TM box motors carried third rail shoes as part of this modification.  The train operated to the North Shore's freight house on Montrose Avenue under the North Side L.  Third rail was used on the Skokie Valley line between Oakton Avenue and Howard Street, but overhead wire was most likely used on track 1 between Howard and Montrose.

The three TM M-series box motors had side windows on one end, seats, a vestibule, and destination signs in a feeble attempt to convince Milwaukee that they were passenger equipment, and thus not a violation of TM's franchise.

The North Shore cars' railroad-width wheels weren't kind to the neighboring pavement on Third Street, causing even more friction with the city.  After a three year run, the Bathtub Train went down the drain, though TM used the modified box motors (with blanked over windows) in freight service until the postwar sale of TM rail assets.  The Kohler plant is served today by Wisconsin & Southern on an ex-C&NW branch.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 19, 2023 4:07 AM

Sheboygan Light Power and Raileway Co.  Thanks foe the hint.

The Franchise issue must have been Milwaukee's 5th and/or 6th Streets.

Duid not know (or forgot) that TMER&L used third rail anywhere.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 1:39 PM

Kohler is west of Shebygan, the northern end of TMER&L's former Milwaukee Northern line.The former MN and CNS&M connected end-to-end in Milwaukee.

A car from the third railway (but not a box motor) is at the East Troy Electric Railroad.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 8:17 AM

This is from the Milwaukee - Shebogan Interurban thread in the Trains Magazine Transit Forum:

"Actually, the route of the Ozaukee Interurban Trail is not new at all. As the name suggests, the right-of-way the trail uses is primarily that of the historic interurban railway that connected Ozaukee's communities with Milwaukee. In 1922, the right-of-way was acquired by The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light Company (TMER & L) for development of an improved rapid transit service from Milwaukee to Sheboygan. The Northern Route, the interurban electric railway from Milwaukee to Sheboygan since 1908, had stops in the mostly rural communities of Brown Deer, Thiensville, Cedarburg, Grafton, Port Washington, Belgium, Cedar Grove, Oostburg and Sheboygan. The rapid transit was an electric railway system linking Milwaukee and many of the surrounding communities to the north, west and south from its inception in 1905 to the end of all operations in 1951. During its operation, the Northern Route of the interurban line was also made famous for transporting African-American blues musicians to the main recording studio for Paramount Records recording label in Port Washington and ultimately in Grafton, Wisconsin. The idea of African-American artists from the rural South traveling to Grafton, Wisconsin in the late 1920s and early 1930s by taking the "electric train" seems fantastic. After the TMER & L acquired the right-of-way lands in 1922, it began an ambitious improvements project for many of the lines including the Northern Route that ran through Ozaukee County to Sheboygan. Much of these improvements and realignments that were to be realized happened by 1934. In 1938, the TMER & L reorganized into The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Transit Company (TMER & T); however, the rapid transit system was increasingly losing ridership to the automobile. The economic situation and World War II only temporarily halted this decline. Ridership on the interurban railway lines actually increased during World War II only to realize significant decreases following the War. These decreases lead to the abandonment of the Northern Route north of Port Washington in 1940. In 1946, the remaining Port Washington interurban line was sold by TMER & T to the Kenosha Motor Coach Lines. Between 1940 and 1948, the Port Washington interurban line serviced Ozaukee County, but on March 29, 1948 the Port Washington line was terminated, which brought an end to the former Northern Route to Sheboygan

 

But why would an intermediate line be needed for interchanging between TNER&L and CNS&M?  And third rail?    Or did TMER&L use third rail somewhere along the line, and another interurban was needed for local delivery to and pickup from Kholar?

The traffiuc was all John equoment to a kholar store in Milwaukee and variouws stores in Chicago.  Posdibly the North Shore's franchise on 5th and 6th Streets was for passenger service only.

I believe the traffic was entirely

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 6:29 AM

Yep

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 3:17 PM

From Khoeler (Sheboygan)?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 8:17 AM

I'll give up the train's nickname..."The Bathtub train".  The company making said product remains in business today, in the same location.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 6:07 AM

The other railways involved were not Insull lines, though both, like CNS&M, had affiliation with electric power providers.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 3:55 AM

Third Rail must mean Chicago Aurora & Elgin, and the Fox  Valley interurban at a connection at either Aurora or Elgin, or the Elgin and Belvedere.

Hoover Vacuum Cleaners.  The Hoover train?  Reached by North Shore sdtretcar trackage north of the Milwaukee interurban terminal?

But I do recall reading about both freight and passenger moves interchanged with the TMRE&L north to De Pere/

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 16, 2023 7:05 PM

I'm going to drop the passenger move from the question.  The North Shore handled a charter move for St. John's Academy in Delafield, carrying students to the Academy from Chicago via TMER&L's Watertown division.  The train came into Milwaukee on 6th, using a loop via Wisconsin, 3rd and Michigan Avenue to 6th, tuning onto Clybourn St to head west.  These runs, both for end-of-term and special events, lasted from 1924 (when the Watertown line west of Waukesha Beach was changed from 1200 to 600 volts) until just before World War II.

The freight move originated on one electric railway, traversed an intermediate one (which supplied third-rail-equipped box motors compatible with CNS&M MDT cars) and finished on the North Shore.  It only ran between 1930 and 1933, when the City of Milwaukee banned freight moves on one street used.

Looking for the two electric partners and the product handled.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 16, 2023 6:05 AM

Both of these moves involve North Shore equipment going off-line, and one mixed foreign line equipment with North Shore MDT cars.  The freight move was nicknamed after a popular household fixture, still produced today in the same plant.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 15, 2023 9:47 PM

I have not had time to consult my two CERA North Shore books, one of which probably has the answer.  But a guess might be the Chicago and Joliet, with Chicago City Railway, later Chicago Surface Lines, as the intermediary.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 13, 2023 7:00 AM

The freight interline move was important enough that two of the three railroads involved contributed equipment.  The service ended when the middl company had franchise issues related to the operation of the train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 13, 2023 4:30 AM

I believe I know part of the answer, lacking only the nickname, which I hope to get from eithrer of the CERA north Shore books to add to this answer Sunday morning.  And if Mr. South Shore completes a correct answer before then, all power to him.

I think the moves were with Milwaukee Electric (TMER&L) lines.  Yje Seasonal  passenger with the line to the north, and it may have in begun while that line was still independent.  From Chicago to and from De Pere or other north-of Milwaukee destination.

I think there were two interline moves with TMER&L:  One was the same as the passenger as described above, and the with the their line  serving their power plant.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 12, 2023 10:58 AM

So let's flip the question:  There were two interline moves of North Shore equipment that regularly occurred.  One involved passengers, the other freight.  The passenger move was seasonal, the freight move year-round.  Give info about either one.  The freight move had a nickname, so be sure to include that.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 12, 2023 10:10 AM

rcrdye gets the next question since he got the last station at 63rd & Dorchester.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 12, 2023 7:38 AM

The line was cut back to Cottage Grove in 1997 after being completely rebuit between1994 and 1996.  The move was supposed to "daylight" the section of 63rd street to encourage redevelopment.

The material yard is still very much in use by CTA, but with fewer tracks.  There may still be a connecting track to the Norfolk Southern (the "New York Central" track). At one time that track was used for equipment deliveries - the two Pullman-built 5000 series cars were delivered there.  The upper level yard at 61st street is still standing, but unused.  The Shop building at 61st was demolished during the 1994-1996 rebuild.  At one time CRT maintined a frog shop under the 61st street yard, with a ground level track crossing 63rd st.  After the CTA takeover connecting tracks onto 63rd street allowed the yard to be used by former Surface Lines equipment as well, though only a couple of tracks had overhead wire.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 12, 2023 7:20 AM

Your answer is obviously correct, and I look forward to your next question.  I should have checked my CERA North Shore books, which I did keep and bring with me.  Thanks.

Why was the line cut back to Cottege Grove?

What happened to the yard?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 12, 2023 7:11 AM

The surface level yard south of 63rd street served as a Merchandise Despatch office.  The easternmost station on 63rd was Jackson Park, at Stony Island Avenue.  Passengers could make a walking transfer from 63d and Dorchester to IC's 63rd street station to connect with IC and South Shore trains.  The Green line was cut back to Cottage Grove in the 1990s.

https://www.chicago-L.org/maps/track/1965dec_N-S3.pdf 

The loop track was removed in the 1940s.

The material yard had a very tight loop track that was used to turn the Limited trains so that the observation cars were on the rear.  The trains were backed from Jackson Park, then run down the ramp, around the loop, back up the ramp and then backed to Jackson Park for the northbound departure.

Of course any point on 63rd street qualified from the point of passenger service...

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