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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 3, 2021 11:30 PM

Although CCT did meet SN at Sacramento, there is no record of through operation.  CCT was jointly owned by WP and AT&SF.  The year 1928 is important.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, June 3, 2021 6:54 AM

Could be Central California Traction for through operation on the Sacramento Northern south of Sacramento.  And possibly the two WP-owned lines shared power.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, June 2, 2021 6:18 PM

In 1928 this interurban ordered two dual voltage (600/1200) steeplecab freight locomotives from GE even though the line was only equipped for 600 volts.  Name the railroad and the reason for ordering the dual-voltage motors.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, June 1, 2021 5:20 PM

It would likely have been agony riding sideways all that way, to say nothing of bathroom stops enroute.

I have never seen an indication that the bleacher cars were used by the public for anything more than actually following the races -- they got in via the ladders, with assist from the kinds of people seen in some of the pictures, and at the end of each race they got out again.

I'm still looking forward to seeing details of the judges' arrangements.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 1, 2021 2:43 PM

If the Central's bleacher trains used the West Shore, Weehawken would have not been a problem for boarding.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, June 1, 2021 4:06 AM

daveklepper
Where did the  Central's bleacher trains originate?

What's interesting so far is that every picture I've seen of the Central (West Shore) trains has shown New Haven 17500 series cars!

From the ladders I see deployed, I'm pretty sure these were boarded shortly before race time, and as promptly abandoned afterward.  It was the postwar proposed New Haven trains that would come all the way from Boston (presumably South Station and Back Bay) and New York (GCT and perhaps Penn) to be combined into one consist to run along the river.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 1, 2021 3:14 AM

Where did the  Central's bleacher trains originate?  Could not have been Grasn Central Terminal.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 30, 2021 5:44 PM

Well-done all around!  And note whose cars... in what number series... are shown as running along the River 'on the Heights'!  That car in the middle of the train, with the cupola, is purpose-built too, and it would be interesting to know both its provenance and its uses.

Here's a Classic Trains question: what are they doing with the Great Steel Fleet while all those people mill around the two westernmost tracks?  Turns out to be simple... that's the West Shore, not the Hudson River Railroad.

See this view which has a brief view of a train across the river:

https://vimeo.com/225677511

There is much more room inside those bleacher cars than I'd have thought from the still pictures.  That, or crew fans were smaller than today's.  

Note the views from the Poughkeepsie Bridge.

Incidentally, the IRA went to Marietta in 1950 largely because B&O offered to run trains where NYC did not.  And it seems the Lehigh Valley ran comparable equipment along Cayuga Lake for Cornell...

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, May 30, 2021 12:36 PM

Overmod
All the sets of 'regatta cars' I've seen have the same general layout, which is 'bleacher' seating on the flatcar deck, facing one side.  The New Haven cars have three levels the length of the car, with a pipe railing framework and some form of wire enclosure for safery most of the way around.  Entrance is through a gap in the center of the 'viewing' side, presumably with the race fans clambering over the bleachers to get seated.  I do not know what arrangements were provided on race trains for the 'elderly' or differently-abled; I suspect there were more regular passenger cars somewhere in the trains.  Someone may scan the picture in New Haven Power for 'fair use' or can find a comparable picture already online and 'permitted'.

I can't believe I found this from YouTube:

https://hvmag.com/publications/rowing-is-on-the-rise-in-the-hudson-valley/

 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 30, 2021 10:25 AM

daveklepper
In my time as a NYNH&H passenger, and somewhat involved with the MIT crew team, I was aware that the New Haven continued to run these special trains.  But regular coaches were used, post WWII, mostly "america  Flyers,  300-series/

Tell more.

There is an article from the Harvard Crimson that describes plans to start the trains up again in 1950, which eould have been the first 'postwar' year, with wide-window air-conditioned cars -- one set coming down from Boston, one up from New Haven and perhaps New York, to be combined for operation.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1950/3/30/new-haven-rr-may-restore-observation/

New York Times story (from 1980) says among other things that the last Harvard-Yale trains ran in 1969:

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/06/nyregion/yale-crew-seen-over-harvard.html (paywall may be up to view this)

I'm too lazy to find primary sources for the IRA 'competition' regatta on the Hudson at Poughkeepsie after 1891, so here is the introduction:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poughkeepsie_Regatta

Note that the IRA moved its venue off the Hudson the same year the New Haven trains were re-introduced out of New London.  Much more recently 'collegiate' boating events on the Hudson have been renewed (notably between Columbia and Princeton)

All the sets of 'regatta cars' I've seen have the same general layout, which is 'bleacher' seating on the flatcar deck, facing one side.  The New Haven cars have three levels the length of the car, with a pipe railing framework and some form of wire enclosure for safery most of the way around.  Entrance is through a gap in the center of the 'viewing' side, presumably with the race fans clambering over the bleachers to get seated.  I do not know what arrangements were provided on race trains for the 'elderly' or differently-abled; I suspect there were more regular passenger cars somewhere in the trains.  Someone may scan the picture in New Haven Power for 'fair use' or can find a comparable picture already online and 'permitted'.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 30, 2021 7:43 AM

And  the special cars, 15 rows, seven acress, or 21 rows, five across?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 30, 2021 7:39 AM

In my time as a NYNH&H passenger, and somewhat involved with the MIT crew team, I was aware that the New Haven continued to run these special trains.  But regular coaches were used, post WWII, mostly "america  Flyers,  300-series/

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, May 29, 2021 6:22 PM

Central Vermont and New Haven ran down opposite sides of the Thames above New London, so it makes sense for both of them to have had such cars.  I was not aware that New York Central also had them.  It's hard to imagine anyone trying the same setup today.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, May 29, 2021 2:19 PM

That's the correct answer, although the two specific references were to New Haven's and New York Central's versions respectively (New Haven's were seen as flatcars in the 17500 series, with a good picture showing the modifications in Swanberg & Staufer's New Haven Power -- where the specific number of seats was given.

The New York Central cars were characterized as having commercial bleacher sections applied to flatcars.  The New Haven cars appear to have a similar approach but with more extensive detail design of the additions, including railings, safety screening, and roofs.

It would be interesting to find documentation whether the New Haven did or did not bring these cars to Poughkeepsie, which is the location both railroads brought an extensive 'clientele' to watch crew races.  The NYC ran trains up and down the river in the usual way -- New Haven had trains up on the Poughkeepsie Bridge to observe the finish line...

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, May 29, 2021 1:37 PM

I think you're referring to the cars used for the Harvard Yale regatta trains.  The cars (basically 40 foot Central Vermont flat cars) had tiered benches so observers could watch the races.  There's a postcard view of the cars on this page:

https://mcguirelibrary1998.omeka.net/exhibits/show/postcards/intro/harvard-yale-regatta 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, May 29, 2021 1:01 PM

One last hint:

All the seats appear to be the same length.  They all face in the same direction.  This was very important for their intended purpose.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 28, 2021 2:59 PM

Here I thought this was a throwaway question and it would be a feeding frenzy between rcdrye and Mr. Klepper to see who would answer first.  I will drop you all a hint if no one figures this out.

At this point I'd settle for either railroad, if you mention the circumstances where they serve the same place differently.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 28, 2021 2:54 PM

There is no aisle, either longitudinal or transverse, in the picture I saw.  Entry is between pipe rails at the center of only one side of the car.

Children are unlikely to be a major part of the 'clientele'.  People watching their children would be much more likely...

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 28, 2021 8:07 AM

A passenger car for small children?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 28, 2021 7:50 AM

Do all rows have ithe same nomber of seats?

Or the just benches, anf if so, all the same length?

Am I correct that there is no internal aisle?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 5:36 PM

Nope.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 3:18 PM

Rolling band, choir, and/or orchestra?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 9:47 AM

daveklepper
Then sightseeing or theater or Bingo or auction.

None of the above, really... as you'll agree when you figure out the answer.  Were there ever auctions held from railroad cars?

The clamoring was an integral part of what the cars were used for.  Which was a very specific thing.  Not including conductors taking up tickets, or anything involving ticket sales at intervening stations. 

And what about my seating arrangements?
Colder and colder, as it were.  

The railroad that ran the particular cars referred to had a common destination of sorts with the 'other railroad' I mentioned, for a principal purpose that the 'other railroad' ran their version of the cars -- but to my knowledge the first railroad didn't use their special cars for that purpose.  That other railroad's cars were famous because the seating arrangements had nothing to do with the original car construction.  Much along the lines of adding auto racks to flat cars not built for the purpose.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 9:14 AM

Then sightseeing or theater or Bingo or auction. I think auction, accounting for the "clamoring" aftyer seating. And what about my seatimg arrangements?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 6:34 AM

No -- these were cars people clamored to get into, and then clamored while riding.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 3:29 AM

I think it is an instruction car or prison car, again 13 rows of seven each, possibly 11 rows of 9 each (very uncomfortable), standard- or broad-gaoge.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 12:55 PM

As another hint: at least one other railroad had a train of this kind of car, and regularly ran it in comparable service.  We had a thread involving it a couple of years ago.  But I don't have a specific capacity number for their version of the car...

I note an interesting comment made about their 'comparable' car construction and use that provides insight about the numbers -- the seating is not part of their car design, but adapted to it.

Incidentally, there was a discussion about what would be used to replace these cars in postwar service.  Supposedly that would involve wide-window parlor cars, brought in from logical traffic-generating areas:  a much more comfortable -- and far less useful and suitable -- alternative...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 11:16 AM

106 does not permit dividing into X rows with y seats.

105 can mean 15 rows of seven seats each, possible without a center aisle.  Add a cobuctor and you have 106. Or possibly there are 16 rows, and some space is  usurped by a stove.

This might be the Durango and Silverton Silver Vista with individual doors for each row.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 8:15 AM

All the seats face the same way.  Hint: this is important to why the capacity can be so high...

As a hint that will give it away: The number of passengers is exact in the car description I read.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 6:00 AM

But Utah's Salt Air had trailer open-banch cars meeting the description.  They were hauled by closed motor cars until dieselization, then by locomotives.

The UK and Isle-of-Man have narrow-gauge 40-foot (approx.) slam-door compartment cars, without aisles, again outside running boards  for steps and for use by the conductor (guard).  All are pulled by steam.  France has one such operation, but most runs are by petroleum rail-buses.

Each compartment has two bench-seats facing each other, six or seven seated on each bench, part of one compartment may be usurped by a conductor/guard's position.

There may be such an operation in the USA.   Where?

Jack May photo, Isle of Man:

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