Johnny, naturally, got it immediately. There was still an Official Guide listing for the City of Denver, and the train ran as 105-111 and 106-112 - at least as far as the public was concerned... C of D patrons got access to the dome lounge and diner to make it sort of competetive with the Denver Zephyr.
And the train that was 'subsumed' was (unsurprisingly) the City of Denver, and this was well past the time in 1955 where the C&NW was 'found wanting' and the Milwaukee was substituted for the part of the run into Chicago. (1959-1967)
For some time in the sixties (I know the practice continued through 1967), the UP ran the City of Portland through Denver, and any cars necessary for Chicago-Denver traffic were switched out/in in Denver.
Johnny
For several years in the 1950s and 1960s this railroad rerouted one of its signature western trains slightly and "combined" it with another, eliminating the second one except for some cars added (or removed) at the second train's namesake city. Need the Railroad, any partners, and both train names.
No, it's Rob's question now. Go back to June 1: The train was, as he said, the Kansas City-Florida Special, which came into Atlanta as #8 on both the Birmingham and the Atlanta Divisions, and left as #7 on both divisions. To avoid confusing ticket/depot agents as to which train was which the primary direction (south or north) of each train was included in the description of the trains.
It's Johnny's question -- Dave's, if Johnny is stuck (or doesn't reply)
Who's up on this thread?
NNEEDS BUMPING AGAIN
Bumping this for better attention. And has everyone gone over to the Trains Magazine Forum and participated in Chris May's contest?
So now ask another question!
Rode it from KansasCity to Jacksonville in 1959in a Frisco "Meteor"-labeled sleeper. In Memphis saw the RI Budd for RDC Tucumcari. Also on the train leaving Atlanta was (I think) the heavyweight for Brunzwick. Never bothered to look at the train numbers, however.
Since timetable direction changed in Atlanta (the Birmingham Division ran west from Atlanta, and the Georgia Division ran south from Chattanooga to Macon (I do not recall what division took the train south from Macon), the train--no matter its origin, came into Atlanta as #8, and left as #7.
So to avoid confusion on the part of ticket agents the train out of Jacksonville was shown as "#8-7 North," and the train out of Birmingham was shown as "#8-7 South."
Some may say that the Carolina Special should also have been shown the same way, since the train came into Oakdale Junction as #27 and left as #28, whether it started in Cincinnati or Charleston--but the listing in this section showed #27-28-22 and #22-27-28, with 22 being the train from Asheville to Goldsboro, and 21-28-27 being the trains back to Cincinnati..
Aren't directional numbers fun?
Eastward 8-7 Westward 8-7 (you can see why it was confusing) changing numbers (at least from the point of view of the public timetable) at Atlanta.
The train was the Kansas City-Florida Special, which the Southern operated between Birmingham and Jacksonville. What was its number as it ran from Birmingham to Jacksonville, and as it ran back to Birmingham?
Okay, Mike; I misunderstood what you meant. Incidentally, the SOuthen's use of the ACL between Hardeeville, S.C. and Jacksonville was interesting. It actually ran only one passenger train here--but there was switching in Jesup; southbound, two trains came in, and one left on the ACL, and one left on the Southern, for Brusnwick.
The name of the train should be easy to guess now--but, why did the equipment listing also show the direction of each train? Ordinarily, it was deemed necessary to show just the number of each train--such as (name)# 38?
Johnny, I meant ‘remaining’ as 'thus far unmentioned,' such as Carolina Special.
Deggesty Deggesty No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia. We have a winner! Until some time after November 1947, the Asheville Special was combined with the Aiken-Augusta Special in Salisbury. Later, the combining took place in Greensboro--after the train had passed through Winston-Salem.
Deggesty No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia.
No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia.
We have a winner! Until some time after November 1947, the Asheville Special was combined with the Aiken-Augusta Special in Salisbury. Later, the combining took place in Greensboro--after the train had passed through Winston-Salem.
Skyland Special? No idea why except it's the remaining special in Georgia in 1946.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=660892
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=20108
daveklepper The brunswick train was NOT the correct answer? When I was doing lots of acoustical consulting work in the Southeast, either from the Cembridge office of Bolt Beranek and Newman, 1957 - 1967, an overnight on a sleeper via the Seabord put one into Raleigh about 4 or 5AM. But the Southern had a NY - Raleigh sleeper that went to Greensboro and then northeast to Raleigh, which I used. I suspect what you want is one of the trains that carried this sleeping car.
The brunswick train was NOT the correct answer?
When I was doing lots of acoustical consulting work in the Southeast, either from the Cembridge office of Bolt Beranek and Newman, 1957 - 1967, an overnight on a sleeper via the Seabord put one into Raleigh about 4 or 5AM. But the Southern had a NY - Raleigh sleeper that went to Greensboro and then northeast to Raleigh, which I used. I suspect what you want is one of the trains that carried this sleeping car.
Atlanta to Brunswick was southbound.
The last heavy-weight sleeper line was Atlanta-Brunswick; it was not replaced by a lightweight. The type of dining equipment did not enter into the reason (it was the same for both directions; it provided breakfast in one direction and dinner in the other).
At the time, it carried at least one inter-line sleeper and two (not at the same time) connecting line sleepers that ran on the Southern all the way.
OK,in general railroads in the USA use even numbers for eastbound trains and odd numbers for westbound trains. On the Southern, Seaboard, ACL, this is/was modified for odd southbound and even northbound. I wonder about the Southern's line from Atlanta to Brunzwick, Georgia. I would not know looking at a map as to which direction was assigned even and which odd numbers. And they did have a through sleeper from points farther north to Brunzwick, perhaps Cincinnati or even Chicago. I think it was the last heavywieght sleeper in regular scheduled use on the Southern until replaced by a lightweight.
Possibly the diner or cafe car or buffet lounge may have served dinner in one direction and a breakfast in the other.
Dave, you are gettng close--but it was not a Midwest-Florida train. It had nothing to do with days of operation.
Must have been one of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains, possibly the Royal Palm. Possibly they had a train that ran every other day or three times a week, and the timetable had to show dates of operation and direction.
rcdrye I'm thinking the train ran Washington-SR-Lynchburg-N&W-Bristol-SR with the car picked off at Knoxville to serve the unnamed destination of Oak Ridge. Special instructions for the car required the "directional" listing. Birmingham Special?
I'm thinking the train ran Washington-SR-Lynchburg-N&W-Bristol-SR with the car picked off at Knoxville to serve the unnamed destination of Oak Ridge. Special instructions for the car required the "directional" listing. Birmingham Special?
No, Dave; noe of your guesses fits the bill. The train did run through one of the cities served by one you named, and ran to/from a city served by another one you named (which had no name in November of 1945)..
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