Pretty sure there were three at one time. Might show up as a wider RoW on a Google airview if you have access. Anyway, you did get the answer. Helpers were used in steam days on both railroads, and the extra capacity was useful for light jovement returns. Thus the double track Helper- Provo.
Hard to know which Southern train you are refering to, possibly the Aiken=Augusta Special, the Piedmont, the Pelican, the Tennesian?
Dave, the Microsoft Bing map of the area shows only two tracks west from Utah Ry Junction. I do not doubt that at one time the Utah Ry had its track right by the Rio Grande's track.
No, it was not the Crescent, which at that time did not have any cars that were branched off on other Southern lines, and all cars ran the same, both north and south; there were Washington-Atlanta/New Orleans cars. It was another train (which did add a sleeper that came from another origin) that had the directions shown in the equipment description section.
Johnny
My memory is that three tracks were available, one actually owned by Utah RR as you noted but dispatched and CTC controlled by D&RGW (if sitll existing by UP today) between Utah Jc. and the west end of Summit. I was hopinig you might have later infomration, and possibly anyone who has traveld today's operaton can report.
I assume the train was the Crescent,and certain through sleepers iinterchanged with other trains, such as Ashville-NY, or pickup-and-drop sleepers such as a Charlotte - New York sleeper awere handled in one direction, returning on another train such as the Piedfmont Ltd.
Dave, I am sorry, but I am not able to determine the western end of the track that you described.
I will propound a question. From a 1945 Guide: In the section giving the equipment of Southern passenger trains, all but one train are referred to by numbers only. The exception has also the direction of operation; why was it expedient to give not only the number but also the direction of operation?
You are correct, except not all the way to Salt Lake City, not even as far as Provo. Utah Junction is one end point, and you should be able to find the other.
Talk about return of memory. I first saw the SAL shovelnoses in St. Pete, before the SCL merger. They were on the connecting Sarasota train for the Silver Meteor or Star. Then when I went to Manatee, they were on the ex-ACL Naples train from to and from Lakelalnd, now run by SCL.
All of the mentioned shovelnoses were built by St. Louis Car.
daveklepper My memories were of the SCL days, after the merger. If the branch came frojm Lakeland, then it was ACL, from Tampa, then SAL. I do remember the baggage compartment. I had a project in Manatee, on the similar branch with similar equipment to Sarasota, I believe, or was it on the Naples branch? The Champion (West Coast Champion to Tampa and St. Pete, East Coast Cahmpion to Miami) was always an ACL train until SCL. The ACL trains to Florida from the NEC were the two Champions, the Havana, then Gulf Coast Special, and the maid-of-work Everglades and Palmetto. In addition, there was the all-Pullman winter-season-only Florida Special, which had mostly rented sleepers from western railroads. The Seaboard had the Silver Meteor and Silver Star (the Silver Comet ran to Atlanta and Birmingham), the Sunland and the Palmland. I think at one time or another I got to ride all of them. But I am a bit mixed up as to just how I got to Manatee. I think both the Seaboard and the ACL had shovel-faced doodlebugs, as did the Southern. Much of the time, my mother was living in St. Petersburg. My older sister, and my niece her daughter still live in Sarasota. Just to confuse matters more, a number of years before the merger, the East Coast ACL trains used the Tampa line as far a Auburndale, and then switched to complete the run to Miami on the Seaboard, using the Seaboard's Miami Station, because the Floride East Coast had been struck, and did not resume throiugh passenger service. On one occasion I used the East Coast Champion to Orlando, which had not been possible before the FEC strike. Quite a trip. Work in the Cambridge, MA BBN office kept me too long, and I did not have time to catch the NYNH&H-PRR connection for the ECC, with the ticketed connection in Washington, not Penn. Sta., NYC. So I eneded up flying Eastern to National Airport and boarded at Alexandria, after a taxi ride. I guess I am supposed to ask the next question, so here goes. The D&RGW Denver - Salt Lake City line is generally thought of as a single-track line with CTC-controlled passing sidings, and generally that is a good description. I do not know the present state, but for a considerable distance it gave the impression of being and was operated as a triple-tracked line. Where, how, and why?
My memories were of the SCL days, after the merger. If the branch came frojm Lakeland, then it was ACL, from Tampa, then SAL. I do remember the baggage compartment. I had a project in Manatee, on the similar branch with similar equipment to Sarasota, I believe, or was it on the Naples branch?
The Champion (West Coast Champion to Tampa and St. Pete, East Coast Cahmpion to Miami) was always an ACL train until SCL. The ACL trains to Florida from the NEC were the two Champions, the Havana, then Gulf Coast Special, and the maid-of-work Everglades and Palmetto. In addition, there was the all-Pullman winter-season-only Florida Special, which had mostly rented sleepers from western railroads. The Seaboard had the Silver Meteor and Silver Star (the Silver Comet ran to Atlanta and Birmingham), the Sunland and the Palmland. I think at one time or another I got to ride all of them. But I am a bit mixed up as to just how I got to Manatee. I think both the Seaboard and the ACL had shovel-faced doodlebugs, as did the Southern. Much of the time, my mother was living in St. Petersburg. My older sister, and my niece her daughter still live in Sarasota.
Just to confuse matters more, a number of years before the merger, the East Coast ACL trains used the Tampa line as far a Auburndale, and then switched to complete the run to Miami on the Seaboard, using the Seaboard's Miami Station, because the Floride East Coast had been struck, and did not resume throiugh passenger service. On one occasion I used the East Coast Champion to Orlando, which had not been possible before the FEC strike. Quite a trip. Work in the Cambridge, MA BBN office kept me too long, and I did not have time to catch the NYNH&H-PRR connection for the ECC, with the ticketed connection in Washington, not Penn. Sta., NYC. So I eneded up flying Eastern to National Airport and boarded at Alexandria, after a taxi ride.
I guess I am supposed to ask the next question, so here goes. The D&RGW Denver - Salt Lake City line is generally thought of as a single-track line with CTC-controlled passing sidings, and generally that is a good description. I do not know the present state, but for a considerable distance it gave the impression of being and was operated as a triple-tracked line. Where, how, and why?
Dave, apparently Bradenton was the station for Manatee--so you could have used either road to reach the place.
It was in 1963 that the FEC was struck. After the ACL-SAL merger, in general, the Miami trains that came down from Richmond on the ACL continued on the ACL track as far as Auburndale, where they moved onto the SAL track to get to Miami. The South Wind and City of Miami followed the same route from Jacksonville, with the train crews running all the way Jacksonville-Miami.
I rode the FEC from West Palm Beach to Jacksonville in '67, and missed my planned train to Washington because someone had set a signal at stop and left it there.
Dave, the motorcars built by St. Louis Car had no passenger seats. They were used to pull any cars, no matter who built them.
As you said, the Naples section of the Champion used cars built by other manufacturers. I did not notice who built the cars I rode when I went down to Naples and back in February of 1971 (roomette from Savannah down, coach up to Lakeland)
Saint Louis Car Company. Applies only to the head end of the Naples train. The rest of the equipment was primiarily Budd and Pullman.
My mistake, the Florida railcars were ex-SAL, not ACL, but the history is the same... Add in Southern's FM railcars and all have a common origin. What is it?
All were "shovel-nose streamliners" with passengers or other revenue in the motive power. (I am unsure if the shovel-nose doodlebug in the Naples service had ony bag-expess-mail facilities or had passenger seats (as well?).
However, the two Electroliners were double-ended. The other two trains were not. Other differences were fixed consist (CNS&M) or loose-car (IT & SAL) trains. But the front-end styling was very similar for all three. Besides being standard gauge and using axle-hung motots for final drive. Unsure about meal facilities, having only used those on the Electroliners.
All three were air-conditioned. All three had roof-mounted headlights, typical of shovel-noses.
I think the SAL Naples branch had street-running in at least one location, giving it an interuruban-like flavor. But of course the CNS&M & IT trains ran on 600V DC, and the Naples branch train had a Winton, EMC, or EMD diesel prime mover.
The Electroliners did not have any assigned baggage space and baggage doors. The other two did.
A final note on the steel cars. The cars assigned to the Met and Lake Street lines had Van Dorn couplers (not Tomlinson, never used on CER/CRT/CTA, but used by CA&E on steel cars) and cars assigned to Northwestern and South Side lines had Stearns and Ward couplers. Both series had a mix of GE and Westinghouse motors. One of the trailers was eventually motorized with equipment from a burned-out baldy motor, but it was given transverse naugahyde seats and the number 4456 and mated with one of the Plushies.
What was the common link between the "Electroliners", the "Fort Crevecoeur" and the ACL's Lakeland-Naples Florida section of the "Champion"?
rcdryeTo finish the answer to the question, in 1923 the member companies of the Chicago Elevated Railways Collateral Trust merged to form the Chicago Rapid Transit Company, with CRT taking over operations in early 1924.
That confirms what I was wondering.
All of the 4001-4066 trailers had longitudinal seats, as did the first batch of 4067-4250 motors, with the last 120 or so having transverse rattan seats.
To finish the anser to the question, in 1923 the member companies of the Chicago Elevated Railways Collateral Trust merged to form the Chicago Rapid Transit Company, with CRT taking over operations in early 1924.
The second group of 4000 series cars were delivered between 1922 and 1924 with either Chicago Elevated Railways or "Rapid Transit" on the letterboards. The 4251-4455 series had wooden roofs with trolley poles, transverse plush seats, had no center door but had framing to permit the installation of one. Control was Westinghouse ABLFM (Automatic, Battery/Line, Field Control, Type M (GE) compatible) or GE PC-10 pneumatic cam (30 cars), (PC-10 is also type M compatible).
4000s of both series (Baldies and Plushies) could train with any wood cars with the exception of South Side cars with Sprague control (1-250). The South Side Spragues could train with South Side cars with modified Westinghouse AB control, which in turn could train with the 4000s, but not at the same time. Chicago had a bewildering array of controls, most of which were set up for automatic accelleration. The difference in balancing speed (50 steel, 40 wood) was the main obstacle to mixing wood and steel cars operationally. There were also different coupler types, and Met cars had the safety springs on the left side instead of the right.
So that was 134 3rd-rail motors and 66 control trailerws? And the motors often ran witrh wood trailers? I think I saw some mixed wood-and-steel trains in the summer of 1952, but no steels mixed with gate cars. But occasionally wood gates and wood vestiules together. By my return in 1967 all wood cars had goen and the 4000's were the oldest cars running, and soon were to go.
The 66 4000-series control trailers were part of the larger "Baldie" order. Northwestern had several runs of their own or with South Side Rapid Transit that didn't require poles - Ravenswood and Wilson-Kenwood come to mind. Even more interesting than lack of poles was the difference in couplers - units assigned to the Met had Tomlinsons, Northwestern had Stearns & Ward.
So Chicaqgo's first steel L cars were all control trailers. New info for me!
At the time the 4000-4250 series Baldies were constructed, the Northwestern El also used trolley poles on ground-level track north of Wilson Avenue shared with owner CM&St.P's steam powered freight trains. Their ARMCO steel roofs would have made it difficult, but not impossible, to put poles on them in any case. 66 of the 250 Baldies were built as control trailers, and all of them were equipped with Westinghouse ABLFM control, which could interwork with the GE type M control common on the wooden, trolley pole equipped cars. Baldies seldom ran on Lake Street, even after the later pole-equipped "Plushies" arrived. 30 of the 255 Plushies were built with GE PC10 control, but all of them could train with each other and any wooden cars except for the South Side cars with Sprague control.
Were the center-door baldies the first Chicaqgo steel L cars? They did not have trolley poles, so they could not have run the Lake Street service.
The 1913 equipment trust certificates were in the names of all of the underlying companies but the C&OP, which was in bankruptcy at the time. Moody's stated that the certificates "Were not a liability to the Trust itself". The cars purchased were the 4000 series "Baldies" with no roof ventilators and center doors which were rarely, if ever, used.
The Northwestern Elevated had also merged in the Union Elevated Railway and the Union Consolidated Elevated Railway in 1903 or so. Those two made up the east and south and west sides of the Loop, including the legs to meet the South Side at Harrison St and the Met at Franklin. C&OP had built the Lake Street leg (as the LSERR) in 1897.
The four operating companies formed the Chicago Elevated Railways Collateral Trust starting in 1913 (not absolutely sure), primarily for the purpose of purchasing steel cars. The cars were numbered in the 4000 series but were lettered for the specific owner.
By the time of the first consolidation, the Lake Street Elevated had gone from Railroad to Railway(1899), acquired its own west end (Chicago and Harlem, 1900) and reorganized as the Chicago and Oak Park Elevated Railroad (1904).
According to my system, it took 0.62 seconds for
Presuming this is what you were asking for, I have a follow-up question. The four companies did not consolidate directly into the Chicago Rapid Transit Company, but engaged in an intermediate form of consolidation. Name that, and provide dates. Other details would be welcome.
I'll stick with Chicago. The Chicago Rapid Transit Company was the product of the consolidation of four companies. What were the names of all four companies?
Don't forget the Observatory...
I can't believe I've been mispronouncing the name all these years... thanks.
Correct! Yerkes left Chicago to go off to London where Hedley's trucks found use on the Underground. On some Underground lines trains have "cars", not "carriages", as a remnant of Yerkes and other American investors' influence. The mention of American investment ocurred in the BBC drama "Sherlock" episode "The Empty Hearse".
Yerkes at one time controlled the Lake Street and Northwestern Elevateds, and covered the north and west sides with his West Chicago and North Chicago Street Railways, with horse, cable and electric operations. He also owned most of what later became Chicago and West Towns Railway.
The financier in question is Charles Tyson Yerkes. Most of his involvement with Chicago street railways was with various operators on the North Side.
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