None of these meet the definition. The station was used only by streetcars. Hints: It was built at the same time as the other station in the complex that is still used by rail transit. It was in use just under two years before the one streetcar line using it was converted to bus. During the time it was in use, rail transit was provided on three levels in the total complex. During the two years it was used by streetcars, only the southern portal and incline was used in revenue service. The northen portal and incline still exists, but without tracks, and this facilitates its new use. Not used by the public. Since this station is underground, the streetcars could have been called, stretching the point, subway-surface. Normal nomenclature for the rail service that still exists is to call it a subway line. And the rail equipment on the third level, now a bus line, also entered a subway, but elsewhere. It operated will into the post-WWII era.
daveklepperQuestion: Boston has effectively an abandoned streetcar subway station, but it not really abandoned but had been adapted for a different transit-related use. What streetcar line used it? Where is it? What existing rail transit line serves the complex? What what different about the streetcars that served that line from the many other examples of the general type (two characteristics, one shared with a minority of the others). What is its current use?
The bus loop at the Harvard Square station was built as a subway. Station is currently rail-served by the T's Red Line. Several of the routes that operated out of Harvard Square used Boston's locally-developed Center Entrance car, which could be used in trains of up to three cars. The bus loop is currently served by trolley buses on a couple of routes.
Boston also has the abandoned Pleasant Street tunneland incline off of the Green line's Boylston St tunnel, which served City Point lines among others, closed in 1961. There are also pieces of various downtown tunnels and stations including Scollay Square of "Charlie on the MTA" fame that were redone to build Government Center Station, shared with the Blue Line.
The two "Dartmouth College" sleepers were renamed and assigned to the Montrealer/Washingtonian service in 1961 after the Boston-Van Buren Potatoland Special (joint with Maine Central and Bangor & Aroostook) was discontinued. Prior to that the White River Jct-New York sleeper was usually a heavyweight 8 section 5 DBR car handled in the "Night White Mountains" or another, unnamed B&M train, with the cars handled via the New Haven to Grand Central.
CN locomotives were very rarely used on either the Montrealer/Washingtonian or the Ambassador. The reason being an agreement with the Rutland denied the CN the opportunity to provide through service to New York with any other railroad than the Rutland. So the Ambassador and Montrealer/Washingtonian were officially CV trains all the way to Montreal. CV crews ran through to Montreal on passenger trains only. So usually a CV locomotive would be used. And this practice did continue into the diesel era.
Other than the Dartmouth College I and II, the B&M Pullmans were in pool with the similar New Haven cars, and a car could be seen on the Montrealer/Washingtonian or on the State of Maine. Actually this is also true of the New Haven converted grill cars. The swapping would occur at times of inspection or overhaul.
A sixth railroad was also involved: New York Connecting railroad, Oak Point to Harold Tower, Sunnyside, and owner of the Hell Gate Bridge. OK, a seventh, Washington Terminal, for that matter. And on occasion an eigth, since two of the E.River tubes were officially owned by the LIRR, and two by the PRR.
Question: Boston has effectively an abandoned streetcar subway station, but it not really abandoned but had been adapted for a different transit-related use. What streetcar line used it? Where is it? What existing rail transit line serves the complex? What what different about the streetcars that served that line from the many other examples of the general type (two characteristics, one shared with a minority of the others). What is its current use?
For extra points, what other abandoned subway facilities does Boston have?
The CN electric was only used after Central Station opened so it and the PRR K4 south of Wilmington were never involved at the same time. From time to time - and most often in the 1944-1954 period when the CN electrics were used (with an engine change) CN and CV engines would get swapped in St. Albans, though either CN or CV engines could run through. The 1944-1954 pattern from north to south: CN electric Montreal-St. Lambert, CN-St Albans-CV (or either CV or CN engine run through) to White River Jct. VT, B&M engine WRJ - Springfield, NYNH&HH steam or diesel Springfield - New Haven, NYNH&H electric to New York (Penn) , PRR electric to Washington. Except for the CN electric this pattern remained right up to the end of operation.
The two streamlined cars were out of the same order that the "Dartmouth College" cars were in, though they were 6-6-4s in the "Beach" series until 1961. The actual cars were 6 DBR-Lounge cars in the "State" series. The other two cars in the "State" series went to the "State of Maine".
You certainly got the trains. Looking forward to your next question.
The Montrealer - Washingtonian. When steam, for a while it used the CN terminal electrification at Central Station, with electrics hauling across the bridge. I am unsure whether this was an engine change or the electric simply coupled onto the front of the Central Vermont's Pacific. The CN and PRR turned the trains, and did not own any of the streamlined cars built for the train. You can say that the New Haven pre-WWII grill cars that were converted into long distance cars with interiors like the post-WWII 8600's were "built for the train," but the real answer were Dartmouth College I and Dartmouth College II, B&M lightweight Pullman-built sleepers. These ran White River Junction - Washington.
Engnin changes
CN electric - CV Pacific. CV Pacific - B&M Pacific B&M Pacific - New Haven Pacific New Haven Pacific - New Haven EP-2 or EP-3 EP-2 or EP-3 - PRR P-5 or GG-1, P-5 or GG-1- K-4, the last at Wilmington, DL
Earlier
CN electrci - CV Pacific - B&M Pacific, B&M - New Haven, New Haven Pacific - EP-2 or EP -3, EP-2 or EP-3 - DD-1, DD-1 - K-4
RME SD70M-2Dude ... ETS has since acquired a GE 44-tonner (with side-rods!) for work trains. Surely that would be a 45-tonner, not 44...
SD70M-2Dude ... ETS has since acquired a GE 44-tonner (with side-rods!) for work trains.
Surely that would be a 45-tonner, not 44...
Darn fingers, I should know to spelchek before i post . Our 44-tonner at the Alberta Railway Museum looks quite different too.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2Dude... ETS has since acquired a GE 44-tonner (with side-rods!) for work trains.
The book seems to be reasonably easy to find for about $35. His other book on Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecabs is also still out there at around the same price.
An overnight passenger train operated by five different railroads got as many as seven engine changes during its run, depending on the year. From the mid-1940s to the mid-1950s it was hauled behind electrics at both ends of its run. The only streamlined cars built for the train did not belong to either of the railroads that turned the train each day.
Give the names under which the train ran, and all five railroads.
That sounds like a great book and reference, I will have to look into finding a copy. I did not know BCER bought a 4th unit for parts, and I must have confused ETS 2001's number with its retirement date (duh). Their main use for it was hauling dirt away from the tunnels being dug underneath downtown Edmonton, and ETS has since aquired a GE 44-tonner (with side-rods!) for work trains.
Also 21/961/2001 is no longer with the ERRS, it was re-donated to the more recently formed Fraser Valley Heritage Railway Society in Surrey, BC, arriving there in 2014. They operate an ex-BCER interurban car over SRY tracks during the summer.
Anyway back to you Rcdrye, your question:
British Columbia Electric actually bought 4 used GE steeplecabs from Oregon Electric, using three for operation and one for a parts supply. All four were built in 1912 and have consecutive serial numbers.
OERy BCERy BCH Edmonton Transit
21 961 961 2001
22 960 960
23 962
24 (parts)
961 went to the Edmonton Transit in 1980, retired in 1998 to the Edmonton Radial Railway Society, 960 to West Coast Railway Association (1976) in Squamish BC. 962 was retired in 1959 before BC Electric became BC Hydro. Line is currently operated as the Southern Railway of British Columbia (SRY).
Thanks to Joseph A. Strapac's exhaustive book "Interurban Electric Locomotives From General Electric" for all of the details.
I will stick with interurbans to keep the juice flowing!
This one-time large interurban bought three used steeplecab electrics relatively late in its interurban era, and used them for freight well after passenger service was abandoned. One was retired and scrapped and after electric freight ops ended another went to a museum and the third was bought by a transit agency and used into the 21st century before being preserved.
What interurban system was this (hint: it runs diesel freights today under a different name)? Bonus points if you can name all the owners those 3 steeplecabs had over the years and the numbers they wore, and the locations the two survivors are preserved at today.
Texas Electric it is. TE also built some box motors from passenger equipment as well. Iowa Terminal also had a TE locomotive on the former Charles City Western, but it was retired before 2000. Texas Transportation was a common carrier that had one or two other customers besides Pearl Brewing.
Even though TE did have some carload customers in Dallas, it never had a freight bypass, with the M-K-T moving cars around Dallas between its Denison and Waco/Coricana divisions to avoid freight operation on city streets.
Welcome to the quiz! Your question, SD70M-2Dude!
Rcdrye, are you thinking of the Texas Electric Railway, which operated out of Dallas?
One of their locomotives, which was rebuilt/manufactured out of an interurban car in 1929 was used on the Texas Transportation Company (as their No. 2) serving the Pearl Brewery in San Antonio until 2000 when the line shut down, today it is on display at the brewery site.
Here is a list of SN survivors :
http://www.wplives.org/sn/roster.html
SN 405 was on the Quincy RR and was donated and moved to the Western Pacific Railroad Museum around 2005.
The hub city, Sacramento of course.
Northern Electric built some locomotives and cars, but Sacramento Northern never rebuilt any. The central city on the line I'm looking for was one of the largest cities in its state, one not particularly known for interurbans. The locomotive that lasted into this century was on a common carrier that shut down in 2000.
Sacramento Northen
I'll toss out another one, then...
This interurban, formed out of a merger of lines going in different directions from its hub city, bought only four cars under its own name but rebuilt cars from predecessors into freight motors and even locomotives, at least one of which lasted in service into this century.
I'll have to decline since I will be unavailable next week.
The side-rod truck was one of several ideas that appeared between 1905 and 1915 to allow the use of only two motors in a four axle car. Brill's Maximum Traction truck was probably the most successful commercially. Interest in lighter cars was helped by the development of smaller, lighter motors in the 1910s and 1920s and eventual development of the PCC.
CSSHegewisch (Paul) is up at this point.
1910 was also the year that Penn. Sta. opened, with the successful start of operation of the DD-1 electrics, with their side-rods. Possibly the success of this type of locomotive was the influence that led to the streetcar truck side-rod experiment.
Ther were a few systems that tried them, but nobody to the extent Pittsburgh did. Considering Pittsburgh had wide gauge track and some very tight curves I suspect that the running gear had wear and binding problems. The 100 HP interpole motor would have weighed around a ton, making track wear an issue as well. PRy's decision to begin trailer operation also seems to have had an influence on dropping the side-rod drive, as cars from both the St Louis and Brill series were set up to haul trailers. All of the photos I have seen of these cars with trailers show non-side-rod trucks. Both the side-rod trucks and the trailers seem to have come out of the fertile mind of PRys master mechanic P. N. Jones, who also designed double deck cars, both trailers and motors. PRy's experimental car from one of the St Louis series, used to determine the door arrangements on the low floor cars, seems to have been the last one to keep its original trucks. Cincinnati had six cars of a 1911 fifty car order from Cincinnati Car Co. equipped with side-rod trucks with a single 75 HP motor, compared to two 40 HP motors on the trucks of the remaining forty four. It seems likely that this experiment was short-lived as well.
Paul, you're up!
Here is a contemporary technical reference showing the arrangement of the side-rod trucks (you can download a free copy of the whole year from Google Books in the United States).
Learned someothing new. Did any other North American systems have side-rod streetcars?
We have a winner! PRys got 150 four axle cars from St. Louis Car, and another 80 from J.G. Brill, equipped with one motor per truck and side rods. The cars were delivered over a period from 1905 to 1909. The cars remained in service quite a long time, in the case of the Brills until 1939. The trucks were noticeably less successful, as the cars were rewired and retrucked as four motor cars by the mid 1910s. As High Floor cars with end entrances, they were mainly assigned to secondary routes, with the low-floor double-ended Peter-Witt style cars taking the heavier ones before the PCCs cam in the 1930s and 1940s.
I will guess that the cars in question had one motor per truck with the axles connected by siderods.
All of the Pittsburgh designs you mentioned came later than these. In Pittsburgh-speak, these were high-floor cars, and not interurbans. The features I'm asking about needed some room to move below the car floor. The kind of rail vehicles other than steam locomotives that had them were industrial diesels.
How is that associated with steam locomotives? And that would take them out of the convenitonal car catagory, would it not? Most tlightweight fou-motored cars did have 22-26-inch wheels.
Could it be that these were the first cars to have some kind of record-keeping device to determine the amount of time power was applied to encourage coasting, drifting in steam locomotive parlance. Such devices were installed on steam locomotives to encourage economical operaton.
Pidttsburgh did have a vast fleet, approaching possibly one thousand, deck-roof lightweight small-wheel four-motored Petert-Witt-door-arrangement cars, in both single-end and double-end variety, eventually handling all routs exept the interurbans to Charleroi-Roscoe, and Washington. Even the Donorra shuttle. But then through 1949 they were gradually replaced by PCCs, with Pittsburgh having the largest fleet of bought-new PCCs in North America, approximately 660. After 1949, buses were the replacement. The last non-PCC line into downtown was Evergreen, which required double-end cars and went bus around 1954. The last single-end city line to be converted to PCC was Fineview, around 1949, around the same time as specially-equipped PCCs took over base interurban service. These special interurban 1700's had a space for luggage behind the operator, a locomitve-style small pilot, roof headlight, and a postwar-designed truck that I believe was later used on rapid-transit PCC cars.
Little bitty 25" wheels for low floors?
What the cars had might be viewed as a different response to Brill's contemporary Maximum Traction trucks, but with a twist to work with Pittsburgh's topography. Incidentally Brill did deliver 80 of the cars, while St. Louis Car, which designed them, delivered about 150.
Full disclosure dept.: Though Pittsburgh was incorporated with the "h", it was dropped between 1890 and 1911. Since only the monogram was used the cars did not need to be repainted immediately after delivery...
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