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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 17, 2016 10:06 AM

Here's another "Robber Baron" question, then.

Two of Chicago's four L companies were largely financed by this financier who was also involved in street railways.  When he left the country in a hurry in the early 1900s, his master mechanic went with him, which is why Hedley trucks were found in Chicago and this world capital city.  All I'm looking for is the financier's name.  If it helps any, the circumstance of his providing capital for a major transport system was mentioned (though he was not) in a PBS "Masterpiece Mystery" series episode.

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 17, 2016 9:09 AM

You've got it!

Thank you very much!!!

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:14 AM

The Hampden Railroad (named for one of the counties it was built in) ran across one of the bleakest parts of Massachusetts, connecting with bits of New Haven's and B&M's lines on the west (B&M Chicopee Falls and NYNH&H Armory branches) and with B&M's Central Massachusetts on the east.  Thorndike is a village in the town of Palmer.  It looks like the idea was to link the Central New England's line to the Poughkeepsie Bridge with B&M's line to Boston and Maine north of Worcester, cutting out the B&A for Boston traffic.  Only 14 miles long, it cost about $4 million in 1910 dollars.

Like several other B&M/NYNH&H projects of the period, the economic possibilities were weak at best.  The only parts of the project that still exist are a piece of B&M's Chicopee Falls branch (Pioneer Valley) and maybe a bit of the Massachusetts Central line that runs northeast from Palmer which is made up of ex-B&A and ex-B&M track.  A bunch of the ROW is now the route of the Mass Turnpike (I-90).

Oh, Yes, Hampden was a famous (if not respected) maker of railway watches.

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Posted by RME on Monday, May 16, 2016 2:33 PM

NorthWest
Someone please answer it before these threads collapse.

Or we collapse with laughter.  OK, guys, it had the same name as a famous railway (not railroad) watch maker.  (Not one of the best watch making companies, either)

Wow, another example of a super railroad, killed by machinations involving J.P.Morgan, part of whose ROW was later used for a high-speed motor road... that might have been an interesting question to pose to trick people into the wrong 'usual answer'...

I still think it was a mistake to scrap it, thanks a bunch Mr. Brandeis

So close, and yet so far.

Find THIS in your Official Guides!

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, May 16, 2016 8:59 AM

I really don't think it is fair to expect me to ask another question when I have just come up with one and the answer is known by several of the thread participants. Usually that only happens when everyone is stumped.

Someone please answer it before these threads collapse.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Sunday, May 15, 2016 11:55 PM

RME
SD70M-2Dude
Considering the circumstances, could one say the project sank?

Are you making fun of poor Mr. Hays?

I don't think North West is asking about the Southern New England anyway -- too many details don't match.

I was referencing SNE, but realized after NorthWest's first response that I was incorrect.  Even if I had been right I wouldn't have answered, you are right, making up a question is too hard on short notice. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by RME on Saturday, May 14, 2016 8:36 AM

NorthWest
Guys, this isn't fun if everyone that knows the answer refuses to provide it...

Au contraire, it's much more fun watching to see others figure it out.

I sometimes learn much more ... or am reminded of things I'd forgotten, like the SNE since its '100th anniversary' a few years ago ... when looking around for the answer than I do finding it.  That only adds more to the fun.

And I don't have to pose a question 'with the pressure on' ... Wink

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, May 13, 2016 11:30 AM

Yes, don't be bashful if you do know the answer--unless you have answered more questions than you think you should. I admit I have felt that way, and responded as IGN did--and nobody else responded--and have ended up having to pose another question.

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Posted by NorthWest on Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM

No, it was not the SNE. IGN correctly answered this question in a PM, but apparently does not want the question. His clue above is correct.

Guys, this isn't fun if everyone that knows the answer refuses to provide it...

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Posted by narig01 on Friday, May 13, 2016 12:28 AM

Was it built for approximately $4,000,000 and sold for scrap in 1921 for $30,000?

I'll let someone else answer this.

The IGN

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Posted by RME on Thursday, May 12, 2016 11:38 PM

SD70M-2Dude
Considering the circumstances, could one say the project sank?

Are you making fun of poor Mr. Hays?

I don't think North West is asking about the Southern New England anyway -- too many details don't match.

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Posted by NorthWest on Thursday, May 12, 2016 6:59 PM

The railroad was designed to connect the NH and B&M.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 12, 2016 12:07 PM

The "upgrade" in Cooper rating was negated pretty quickly by deferred maintenance.  I'm sure no one was standing in line to help replace ties and rail on the bridge, or to climb around under it and fix gusset plates and rivets. The Plate C issue may have been related to a couple of highway bridges over the railroad in Connecticut and New York, and not directly to the bridge itself.

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Posted by RME on Thursday, May 12, 2016 9:27 AM

daveklepper
If converted back to rail,.the Poughkeepsie Bridge could handle the weight of modern freight trains easily

This is interesting because all the time I was growing up there was a 10mph speed restriction on the bridge and the 'general consensus' was that some combination of construction and material was imposing a safety limitation on the bridge that was not recognized in the 'days of NH steam'.  (The recent discussions concerning 1361's firebox structure not having the expected strength without double-nutting -- and perhaps not then -- might be another example of this.  If I recall correctly, there were also implicit restrictions on loading gage that made the 'new' generation of larger cars (Plate C?) inconvenient to route that way.  Does anyone know, or have access or links to, any information or prospecti on how much that aspect of improvement was expected to cost?

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 12, 2016 9:16 AM

New Haven converted Poughkeepsie Bridge to a gantlet arrangement to handle the 2-10-2s.  It looked like six rail track with the four outside rails shiny.  The effective change to the Cooper rating compared to double track was something like a boost from E-45 to E-67.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 12, 2016 8:34 AM

If converted back to rail,.the Poughkeepsie Bridge could handle the weight of modern freight trains easily.  It was built and operated as a double-track bridge, with no restrictions on power, and the heaviest NYNH&H power, their 2-10-2s, crossed regularly.   Could easily handle any of today's trains if rebuilt as single-track.

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 4:36 AM

While we're on the general subject, it would have been highly interesting to see how traffic would have developed from Poughkeepsie via the Westchester (&) Northern had Morgan lived long enough.

This presumes that the Poughkeepsie Bridge became used to an extent that its reinforcement to handle 'modern' freight traffic could be justified, and the remarkably ill-conceived use of New York rapid transit as the 'last mile' of the NYW&B could be worked around somehow ... although what that could be even that early isn't too clear to me.  The route of the 'Federal' around NYC in the time around WWI is kind of the 'anti' version of this...

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 11:17 PM

The rail line was completely constructed with rails and all. It just never saw anything but construction trains. After lying dormant while the case was resolved, the outcome made the line unusable for its intended purpose (or anything else but scrap metal around WWI).

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:10 PM

Considering the circumstances, could one say the project sank? Whistling

And how do you scrap a line that the rail was never laid on?

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 9:10 PM

This short New England railroad was expensively extremely well engineered with few curves and easy grades. However, it never saw a revenue train and was quickly scrapped following a JP Morgan anti-trust suit.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:55 PM

Dominion Atlantic it is, coming under CP control in 1911.  The last gypsum-hauling remnant ceased operating in 2011.  The ferry connection was from Digby, NS to Saint John, NB.  As far as I know CN never sold any former H&SW track to a shortline, it was all directly abandoned.

Predecessors were the Western Counties Railway, Midland Railway, Windsor & Annapolis Railway, Cornwallis Valley Railway, Nova Scotia Central Railway, and Middleton & Victoria Beach Railway.  DAR also had trackage rights over the Intercolonial's Windsor Branch to access Halifax, and eventually leased it outright.

As maritime railroading declined CP first spun off the DAR (and other lines) into the internal short line Canadian Atlantic Railway, but this did not do enough and the remaining DAR track was sold to Iron Road Railways, who renamed it Windsor & Hantsport.

Your question, NorthWest:

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:09 PM

Either CNoR's Halifax and South Western, or CP's Dominion Atlantic in Nova Scotia?

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 2:05 PM

That does fit the requirements of my question, but it is not the one I was thinking of.  I should have known there would be more than one possible answer.  The subsiduary I was thinking of was operated by a shortline in its later years, but is now entirely abandoned (hint: the ferry crossing was over the sea, not a river, should have mentioned that originally.  Gotta quit posting right after work Zzz).

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 7:53 AM

SD70M-2Dude

Despite not being on an island, a subsiduary of a Class I railroad was not connected with the rest of the system physically, only by ferry.  Name the parent and subsiduary railroads.  Bonus points for naming any of the predecessor railroads the subsiduary was formed from, or those that operated its lines in later years.

 

The Atlantic City Railroad fits your requirements.  While operating in New Jersey it was only connected with the rest of the Philadelphia & Reading by ferry.
 
It was made from
The Camden, Gloucester & Mt. Ephraim Railway
The Philadelphia and Atlanctic City Railway
The Williamstown Railroad
The Williamstown and Delaware River Railroad
The Camden County Railroad
The Cape May, Delaware Bay and Sewell's Point Railroad
The Ocean City Railroad
The Seacoast Railroad
The Stone Harbor Railroad
The Wildwood and Delaware Bay Short Line
The Pleasantville and Ocean City Railroad
The Brigantine Railroad.
 
In 1933 the PRR and RDG merged their Atlantic City lines into the PRSL which eventually became part of Conrail.
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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Monday, May 9, 2016 11:05 PM

Despite not being on an island, a subsiduary of a Class I railroad was not connected with the rest of the system physically, only by ferry.  Name the parent and subsiduary railroads.  Bonus points for naming any of the predecessor railroads the subsiduary was formed from, or those that operated its lines in later years.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 9, 2016 6:30 AM

The Ticonderoga was owned by the Lake Champlain Transportation Compay which used it for line-haul service on Lake Champlain in the summer months, with D&H issuing joint tickets.  The "Ti" was used by LCT as a cross-lake ferry and excursion boat after the through service ended, even though it didn't handle automobiles well.  Electra Watson Webb, a descendant of Commodore Vanderbilt, was stocking up the Shelburne (VT) Museum and purchased the boat, which was moved overland on railroad tracks, crossing the Rutland's Alburgh sub south of the Shelburne Station. A Rutland local had to wait for the boat to finish crossing the tracks. The "Ti" remains on display at the Museum.

LCT Co. is still in business operating cross-lake ferries and excursion boats.

Your question, SD70M-2Dude!

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Posted by RME on Sunday, May 8, 2016 7:49 PM

Very good. 

I don't like actually answering because then my questions will stall the thread for days or weeks, and that is no fun.  Much more enjoyable to help others (with better questions) get it.

(The other 'compound' name is Webb, btw.)

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Sunday, May 8, 2016 2:43 PM

Sounds like RME knows the answer (love the puns too), but since he is holding off on specifics I will go ahead.

The object is the side-wheel steamboat Ticonderoga, and the railroad would be the Delaware & Hudson.  The reason for the move was to relocate Ticonderoga from Lake Champlain to the Shelburne Museum.  Recently a photo of the move appeared in Classic Trains' Magazine.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by RME on Sunday, May 8, 2016 5:13 AM

Dave, that was a literary reference and a pun on the name of someone associated with the motion of the object in question - whose last name, for railfans, also brings up thoughts of compounds of a different sort.  There is nothing particularly funereal about the situation; in fact, much the opposite. 

Even if the object now sits on railroad tracks, and is not displayed in a more appropriate way like one of its counterparts.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 8, 2016 3:03 AM

MUST HAVE BEEN A FUNERAL CAR USED BOTH BY THE RUTLAND AND THE DELAWARE AND HUDSON

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