By any chance was it the Boston Elevated shuttle between North and South Stations?
Mark
I made it clear it was a diesel commuter railroad operation, next to the Princeton affair probably the shortest ever operated, and not a rapid transit line. The elevated line linking South Station and North Station was operated by trains running from Dudley Station to North Station and was never a shuttle. South Station was a stop on the line, but not a terminal. It ceased around 1937 as a Depression-Era economy move, and was never reinstated but torn town around 1941 or 1942 to provide WWII steel. The 42nd shuttle in Manhattan is still a much shorter operation, and so were Stock Yards and Kenwood in Chicago. But you did mention the Elevated. So think some more. What elevated structures survived WWII in Boston, and where do those trains run now? How did their relocation impact commuter railroading?
Just take a look at the current "T" Boston transit map and compare with one from 1965 or earlier.
Did the NYC run outer-end shuttles on theRiverside branch while the T was converting it to today's "D" Green line?
There was no service on the Highland Branch while the line was converted to light rail. Only bus service.
The construction was more recent and effected more people. And was exclusively within Boston City Limits. And involved more work, about as much as the "Big Dig."
Back Bay station? I think it was rebuilt when the Mass Pike was built. Just a guess.
Rgds IGN
It was rebuilt, now find out when and why. The Mass Pike's only effect on the New Haven's Back Bay station was the destruction of the Trinity Place and Huntington Avenue B&A-NYCentral stations, and thus the New York Central's use, finally, of the platform adjacent to their inbound track, which then handled moves in both directions, at Back Bay and the use of one ticket window for NYCentral tickets.
During the rebuilding into a new station, the station remained open. Amtrak had a window and so did the "T". And only the "T" stopped at the station plus one Amtrak train each way.
Back Bay was rebuilt during the Orange Line rebuilding in the 1980s (NOT more than 50 years ago!!) Amtrak and MBTA used the Dorchester branch bypassing Back Bay for a period of several years. I assume MBTA ran diesel shuttles (the corridor electrification was still more than a decade away) from South Station to Back Bay. Framingham line trains had to go through Back Bay in any case which would make the Lake Shore's Boston section the one Amtrak train in each direction.
That is the correct answer. The shuttles ran every half hour on a weekday, with a diesel pushpull. In addition, of course, there were the Framingham suburban trains, far fewer than today, and the Lake Shore. The rebuilding of the Dorchester Branch as the NEC temporary bypass led to the restoration of local commuter passenger service on that line, the only "T" Purple Line commuter service entirely within Boston.
The "T" does not use electric power even under catenary. All its trains, including those to Providence and beyond are diesel.
The Washington Street elevated was removed, and Orange Line trains relocated to two tracks adjacent to the NEC RofW, which was reduced from four to three tracks.
Next question, please.
This interurban's passenger trains started their runs using pantographs under 600V wire, changed to trolley poles under 1200v wire, back to 600v wire with poles, and then 600v third rail with trolley sections mixed in, finishing with 600v poles.
Bonus points for the location where the overhead was completely disconnected from line power.
Sacramento Northern. trolley wire completely disconnected from power at voltage changes, with two insulators. Also disconnected while cars were on the Ramon railcar ferryboat. This ferryboat was located in third rail territory, but the ramps to and from the boat had trolley wire and not third rail. You described a northbound journey starting from the Key Mole with 600V, switching to 1200volts when reaching SN's own tracks, then 600volts in Sacramento, then 600 volts third rail to the outskirts of Chico (was trolley wire also used in Uba City and Marysville in the middle of third rail territory?) then of course 600 volt trolley wire in the northern city reached, Chico.
Things changed slightly with the opening of the Bay Bridge into SF. I believe SN used 1200V overhead wire at the Eat Bay terminal and on the bridge, then a very short section of 600 wire on Key system between the bridge tracks and their own 1200V wire, then to Sacramento as above.
Dave is correct - except that the Ramon was in the middle of 1200 v overhead territory. The 600V third rail didn't start until after Sacramento on the former Northern Electric - in fact the third rail shoes were mounted or demounted at Sacramento depending on direction. Some of the 1200 volt sections (ex Oakland Antioch and Eastern/San Francisco-Sacramento) were actually around 1500 volts. Dave is also correct that once the SN started using the Bay Bridge it shared the 1200 volt overhead on the Bridge Railway with SP's Interurban Electric. The Key system cars used a 600 volt third rail on the Bridge that was useless to the SN cars that had left their shoes in Sacramento.
After Bay Bridge operation began the SN stopped changing the voltage settings in Oakland when running over the Key System, preferring to operate sluggishly under 600 v to having to change the voltage setting twice.
Back to you, Dave!
So the trolley wire interruptions to the third rail portion of the run were in Yuba City and Marysville, which had local streetcar service . In fact, local Sacramento Northern passenger service continued after interurban passenger service was discontinued in Sacramento, Marysville, Yuba City, and Chico. National City Lines took over from Pacific Gas and Electric which operated most transit routes, includes a number of streetcar lines in Sacramento, during WWII and also took over the single local line of SN and that of Central California Traction, and integrated them into one system, with the SN and CCT lines combined into one. The double-truck SN local cars moved to Marysville and Yuba City, while the BIrneys from there went to strengthen the Birney fleet in Chicao . Freight and Birney passenger service was extended about a mile and one-half north from Chico to an Air Force base. Marysville and Yuba City passenger service quit soon after the war, about 1946, I think, but Chico lasted longer, until 1949, the last five-cent streetcar ride in the USA.
Who can come up with a list of all the shuttle operations using third-rail equipment in the history of the New York City elevateds and subways?
In addition to the shuttles that were always shuttles, there are some that existed purely because of a shortage of steel cars, those that were remnants of through routes, those that were part time and replaced by through routes at other time. There were many, at least about 20 over the system's history. A vast majority of the shuttles do not run today. But there is one new one, although temporary.
Grading: Each correct answer counted as one, but a service that did not exist means subtracting two!
The first use of the designation HH was for a different shuttle. What was it? Also, isn't the designation now just H? You are correct as to what I was considering, and perhaps it should not be called a shuttle. But can we have some answers? List all you know. And by all means examine the route maps of long ago.
Do any of you have a collection of old NY Rapid Transit maps, or histories with maps and/or route descriptions included? I won't subtract any points for labling as a shuttle a route that clearly is not a shuttle but will if the service simply never existed. OK?
Hint, more than one existed just to connect to railroad operated facilities, like the one off the 3rd Avenue Elevated to Grand Central. One of these ran from the Bronx to Manhattan without stops between, in fact two did, one temporary and one that lasted into the '30's. One example I will give away is that the original shuttle at Times Square ran to Penn Station, not Grand Central. Now you tell me why. (Should not be hard to figure out.) Obviously it was very temporary.
Then there was the shortage of steel cars, ended earlier on the IRT than on the BMT. Possibly the original Dyar Avenue Line that ran from E. 180 St. to Dyar Avenue on the NYW&B RofW should not be called a shuttle but a feeder. In any case, it was run by ex-2nd Avenue Elevated wood gate cars until there were enough steel cars on the IRT for through Lexington Avenue service.
Henry, I ma surprised you don't have any answers!
So, should I ask another question after listing the shuttles that are known to me? Up to you!!!
Please ask another question.
Looks like you've stumped us all Dave so go ahead and post another question.
First, a rundown on shuttles: IRT elevateds: 42nd St 3Av - GrCenDepot, 34th St. 3rdAv-LIRR E. Riv Ferry (stop at 2ndAv), 129th St. - Willis Av NYW&B (and NYNH&H Harlem R.Shuttle) Station, 155&8th - Segewick Avenue Putnam Div Sta (during construction of link to Jerom sructure), "Polo Grounds Shuttle" 9th Avenue elevated remnant 15&8ty - 167th & JeromeAv. IRT subways: Times Sq - PnnSta (during construction of 7thAv subway, 149th and Grand Concourse - 167th & Jerome during constr. of Lex. Av subway, Burnsid & Jerome - Woodlawn, shortage of steel cars. composites used, longer lasting: Bowling Green - S.Ferry, GCT-Times Square. BNT: Marcy St. - Broadway Ferry, West End Bay Parkway - Coney island, shortage of steeel cars, Culver shuttle, Franklin Av. Sjuttle..IND: Hoyt - Court St (HH), Rockaway Park - Broad Channel, current HH.
Question longest and most time consuming subway line NYC 1940 - 1950?
Hint, during the time period mentioned, the route between the end points operated only during early morning nighttime hours, local all the way, and it took a very long time. Today, the same service operates, but it also operates between end points 24 hours a day and during all regular hours is an express for part of its route and is labeled as an express.
Heny, if you don't get this, you really should wear a dunce cap.
one last hint. the route did make to one semipopular song based on the long travel time between end points
also, the daytime service which now covers the entire route formerly terminated at a station very heavily used on weekends but not on weekdays and which does not now exist., nor does its structure.
It's easy enough, take the A Train, quickest way to get to Harlem.
The A-train route from 207th St. Washington Heights to Far Rockaway is probably the longest NYC line, but it is currently cut back to JFK-Howard Beach because of Sandy. It was not in existance during the period discussed, ran only 207 - Rockaway Avenue, and was not the longest . Take the A-train does not involve long journeys between two lovers' homes. Good try though, thanks! Not looking for a quick way to get anywhere but a long slow all-stops ride around 2AM.
Last hint, during the day, the same basic service, an express over part of the route, ended on the north at a station very popular on weekends but almost deserted on weekdays. This station does not exist and the tracks leading to it and the structure were removed some time ago, about three blocks worth. And the system had an another station with the exact same name, that also does not now exist and also was popular on weekends and almost deserted on weekdays and was another two-track island platorm terminal. Its structure and tracks have been removed, about 16 miles worth.
One more try to coax an answer out of all of you. During the period the late night early morning service provided by NYCTA was as follows"
IRT: 3rd Ave local, White Plains Rd (Av.) & E. 241st - South Ferry, Lexington Av. local, Jerome Av/ Woodlawn - Flatbush and Nostrand Avenues, Local Pelham Bay Park - 125th Street & Lex., 7th Avenue Local, White Plains Rd. (Av/) & E. 241st. St. - New New Lots Av.& Livonia Ave, Brooklyn, B'way - 7th Av. Local, W. 242 & B'way Van Courtland Park - South Ferry, Local, Times Sq. - Flushing, Local, Times Sq, - Astoria
BMT Brighton Local via Bridge, Queensboro Plaza - Coney Island, Culver Local 9th Avenue - Coney Island, West End Express, Times Square - Coney Island, Sea Beach Local bia Tunnel, 57th Street - Coney Issland, 4th Avenue Local, 36th Street (Brooklyn) - 95th Street Fort Hamilton Park, B'way Brooklyn Local, Broad & Nassau Streees - 168th Street Jamaica Avene, Myrtle Avenue Local, Park Row - Metropolitan Avnue, Fulton Street local, Rockaway Avenue - Lefferts Boulevard, 14thh Street Local, 8th Avenue - Canarsie, local, Queensboro Plaza - Flushing, local, Queensboro Plaza - Astoria
IND A 8th Av. Exp, 207th Street - Rockway Avenue, CC 8th Avenue Local, 205th Street - Hudson Terminal, E, 8th Avenue Express, 169th Street Jamaiica - Church Avenue, GG, Brooklyn - Queens Crosstown Local, Forest Hills Continental Avenue - Smith & 9th Streets (routes added and changed after 6th Avenue subway opening in 1942)
should be easy as pie to figiure which is the longest!
I really gave the answer away, with the last posting, because all one has to do is examine a NY City map with streets and or the transit system to pick the one night service I listed for 1940-1942 that has the loongest route. My concllusion is that New York rapid transit of 50 years ago is not of much interest to rreaders, so I will give the answer, 7th Avenue Local, 241st Street White Plains Road (Avenue) - New Lors Avenue, Brooklyn. Thhis night service exists today as the No, 2 running local during early mornig hours (nights). In the list, I forgot to list the short shuttles that ran at the time, 165th - 155th Street, remnant of the 9th Avenue El that served the Putnam Div. southern termminal and cclosed shortly ater the Central abandoned its Ppputnam passenger service, the 42nd St Shuttle which ran all night aat the time, the Frannklin Avenue - Prospect Park Shuttle in Brooklyn, and possibllly hte Bowling Green - South Ferry Shuttle, although I an uncertain if it provided all-night service. The others did at the tiime.
Before leaving the New Yoork City of 50 or so years ago completellliy, maybe a streetcar question would be of more interest. At the time the nickle fare was still in force. But eight streetcar lines that did operate withiin New York City required ten cents to go from one end of the liine to the other. There was one reasons for two of the lines and another reason for six others. In the case of two, it was possible to go from one end of the line to the other by rapid transit, more than one route in fact, for a nickle. But after 1935 there were people, not necessily railfans, that paid the ten cents willinglly to ride the streetcar instead of the "train," as many people served by the two streetcar lines stiill called their subway and elevated trains. The other six connected with rapid transit but had zero rapid transit competition.
Correction, one of the six had an end-to-end fare of 15 cents. It was possible to ride a portion of any of the eight at a nickle.
When New Yoork City fares went from a nickle to a dime, the twp that served many points served by subway trains, inclluding end points stayed a dime end-to-end. Five went from ten cents to fifteen, then later to twenty,, while the 15 cent end-point ride went first to 20, then to 25 cents.
Were those TARS lines that crossed out of the city limits - say, to Yonkers?
The Six that connected but did not duplicate rrapid transit are exactly those six lines. Four to Yonkers, three from the Broadway W242 IRT terminal, one from Woodlawn-Jerome Avenue, and one to Mount Verton NYNH&H station and one all the way to New Rochelle, both from the E241 White Plains Road (Avenue) terminal, the Mt. Vernon car operating south to 229th Street under the IRT structure.
Can Yoo give a good try about the two lines that in many ways duplcated rapid transit service and the reason for the extra fare? The 1935 date should give a clue. Before that year I doubt that many nnon-railfans would ride end to end on these two routes, slower than rapid transit, after 1935 normal people did ride end to end and pay the extra fare, and the additional time was shortened. One other hint. One of the two routes in part used some tracks and overhead wire that had been used by rapid transit trains that continued to serve the same area on different tracks and with third rail.
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