The only thing I can come up with would be the lines using the Queensboro bridge.
they were all inNeewYork City. Lines between two boroughs, like Manhattan to the Bronx, were not authorized an extra fare like from The Bronx to Ypmlers. On the line to New Rochelle, an extra fare was charged going from The Bronx to Mount Vernon. Pelham was an overlap zone if I remember, one could ride to points in Pelham from either New Rochelle or Mt.Vernon for a nickle. But throughr iders from The Bronx and from Mt.Vernon wer charged an additional nickle entering New Rochelle.
But the two reamining lines: The major Bridge they crossed was not the Queensboro Bridge. On one line,the one that ran for some distance on tracks once used by trolley-pole equipped rapid transit trains that now run and did run at the time on different third-rail euqipped tracks,had freight service on this portion of th eline outlasting streetcar passenger service. While the freight service continued, two passenger fantrips were operated/ One had a trolleypole equipped locomotive hauling rapid transit cars, and the other was the test operation of a foreign streetcar now back in its home country after a long stay in operating condition at a USA museum. Now those tracks are gone.
The reason for the double fare was a holdover from a situation at an earlier period.
Thwe service on these two lines was speeded up and made more enticing to passengers in 1935. 1935 is an important year in streetcar evolution. Why?
daveklepper Thwe service on these two lines was speeded up and made more enticing to passengers in 1935. 1935 is an important year in streetcar evolution. Why?
Were these lines equipped with PCCs?
rcdrye daveklepper Thwe service on these two lines was speeded up and made more enticing to passengers in 1935. 1935 is an important year in streetcar evolution. Why? Were these lines equipped with PCCs?
I think Rob has it. IIRC The PCC design was finalized and production began in 1935. However I think the first PCC's werent completed and put into operation until the next year, 1936.
Mark
Correct, I should have said 1936. In 1935 there were onl beakin and trial runs. Otherwise, yes.
There were other cities where a company was able to charge a double fare for a long line, and the reason was the same. And I do think one of the long lines across the Quennsboro Bridge did charge a double fare, either for the same reason or because it ran beyond the City boarder, but all such lines were gone by 1938 at the latest, and thus do not fit the time period.
Now, anyone know which two Brooklyn PCC lines are the answer, and why the extra fare? I am not sure that the lines even existed betwen end-to-end points before PCC's were introduced. And in the end, two of the last Brooklyn streetcar lines were two lines running from the extra fare dimarcation point south without the northan halves, which were separate bus lines.
The Brooklyn Bridge streetcar lines is what comes to mind.
I kind of have to dig out some books and look. I do remember reading somewhere about the extra fares charged.
Rgds IGN
And before I forget the improvement made was with the discontinuance of elevated trains on the bridge the streetcar lines were moved to the tracks formerly used by the BMT.
You are most of the way there. But the extra fare was not imposed on crossing the Brooklyn Bridge, but aobut half way to the southern teminal shared by the two lines. Now, what do you suppose was the basis of gwo sepafate fare zones in Brooklyn?
In addition to the move from streetcar tracks in the Brooklyn Bridge roadways in each direction in 1942 to the tracks in the center, used by the Myrtle Avenue and Lexington Avenue BMT elevated trains, with their cutback to Bridge and Jay Street in 1942 (with paper free transfer to all the Brooklyn Bridge streetcar lines to and from Manhattan. and the A and F subway lines downstairs), one of the two lines used tracks, used until quite recently in freight surface, on a street, that had been shared up to 1917 with elevated trains using trolley poles, relocated to the then new elevated structure overhead. This structure is now in use by one of the city's heaviest subway lines, running in three boroughs. The particular route was established with the inauguration of the Chrystie Street connection, but does not itself use the connection. Its southern teminal is not far from the location of what was the southern terminal, loops and a building, for the two PCC lines.
The railway, The South Brooklyn Railway?
I thought the extra fare to Coney Island was discontinued with the Dual Contracts in the 1920's.
The only extra fare zone on the subways after that was to the Rockaways. (now the Rockaways have free subway service, at least temporarily)
That would leave the Williamsburg Bridge streetcar lines as the other extra fare. IIRC that was kind of a mess for a while. I think the city was running a streetcar over the bridge and their were complaints about the conductors not turning all the fares over to the city.
I can't get to my reference book for this and can not remember the site where this was also. So I have to rely on the grey cells.
Thx IGN
The freight line was definitely the South Brooklyn Ry.
Dual contracts elimnation of the extra fare to Coney Island onlly applied to the rapid trajnsit trains, both subway and elevated.
The freight carrier was the South Broooklyn Railroad. Owned by the BMT and then by the NYCTA and its last freight service was delievary of new subway cars, and was kept as an ICC reporting mark for that purpose for several years after the last real shipper closed down or moved to trucks.
I think he closed down. It was a petrolleum storage facility receiving and loading tank cars, almost surrounded by NYCTA (BMT) yard tracks.
And after Plant & Structures turned streetcar operation over the Williamsburg Bridge back to the BMT (which had continued to operate its Broadway Brooklyn elevated subway trains over the bridge, none of streetcar lines over that bridge had a second fare zone. And note that I said endpoint to endpoint via subway was just a nickle.
No, not Metropolitan Avenue. Metropolitan Avenue was not used by the South Brooklyn during the time period discussed nor did it figure in any way with the delivery of new subway cars EXCEPT for the brief time that B-Types were delivered to the 14th Street line when it was isolated from the rest of the system, and some trackage on Metropolitan Avenue might have been involved.
And when was Metropolitan Avenue operated by PCC's? It always used double-end equipment, both when it ran through under the Jamaica elevated to 168th Street and when it was cut back to Metropolitan and Jamaica, and neither terminal had loops, just crossovers.
The "Main Line" of the South Brooklyn was under the Culver elevated from 9th Avenue on PRW to MacDonald Avenue, formerly Gravesend Avenue, and before that just the Culver RofW in steam train days. The BRT electrrified the line and to get a franchise for streetcar service, their route generally following today's F train up to an area close to Prospect Park, along with elevated service off the 5th Avenue elevated via 9th Avenue station, they had to allow the PRW to become a street. At one time in summer months, the tracks saw open bench summer streetcars, gate elevated cars, and LIRR special steam trains from the Bay Ridge ferry and from points on Long Island, all bound for Coney Island.
Again, the Dual Contracts mandated that there was to be no extra fare on rapid transit lines, but it left extra fares on streetcars untouched.
I assume that South Brooklyn does still connect with Bush Terminal west of 9th Avenue, west of the track connection to the 36th Street station of the 4th Avenue subway, and that rock ballast comes via New York and Atlantic car float fo the 38th Street Piers of Bush Terminal, which is still active. But Bush Terminal may still have the 1st Avenue in-street conenction down to the LIRR at Bay Ridge. IN any case, the stone ballast would move over the West End Line. I was told the street trackage on MacDonald had been removed and the southwest quadrant curved and graded interchange track to the LIRR Bay Ridge line had been removed. That was the way most South Brooklyn freight moved in my day, including new subway car deliveries, which took a trip on streetcar tracks before Coney Island yard arrival.
With three NYCity questions, it is time for another to be up at bat, and since rcd got six out of the eight, the 6 TARS-TATS lines Bronx to Westchester, he is the winner.
The two PCC lines from downtown Brooklyn to Coney Island were Smith St. - Coney Island Avenue, and Vanderbilt - McDonald Avenue. Both were combinations, end-to-end, of two lines that in the very distant past were operated by two different companies, and thier franchises did not require transfer between them. One or the other crossed Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan, but any line to downtown Brooklyn would give free transfer to and from cars to and from Park Row, Mnhattan. The fare zone on the first line was Bartell-Pritched Sq., on the south boarder of Prospect Park and there was a similar fare zone point for the second line.
After all of that urban excitement we need the wide open spaces. So we head off to the arid southwest in the early 1950s...
When SP re-inaugurated the Sunset limited in 1950 it bought a couple of extra 10-6 sleepers in the 9000 series. Some of these were pooled with similar T&P cars for Dallas-LA service. One "extra" car was always active in the pool, but the train length was the same from day to day. What was this car used for?
dorm?
Not a dorm. Revenue space.
Dallas or Fort Worth - El Paso service or Houston - El Paso service.
A couple of WAG;s either continuing service to Jacksonville, FL? Or North to San Francisco?
I would doubt the latter as I remember someone saying there was no thru service at LAUPT.
Possibly these cars ran to/from San Diego over the SD&AE and east of Yuma were part of the Sunset's regular consist.
All of the recent answers reflect earlier or later service patterns (the SD&AE car was on the Argonout). This car was part of the regular Sunset consist, but played a special role. Big Hint: Think important market between the endpoints that wasn't served well by other carriers.
Ok another guess. Were these cars dropped and/or picked up in Phoenix? Was the Phoenix stop in the middle of the nite, and the cars were for early boardings?
Just a thought.
I can think of two possibilities.
1. They were the San Antonio - New Orleans cars.
2. They were the Dallas - Los Angeles cars that were carried WB in T&P No.1 from Dallas to El Paso and EB in T&P No. 8 from El Paso to Dallas and in the Sunset west of El Paso.
KCSfan I can think of two possibilities. 1. They were the San Antonio - New Orleans cars. 2. They were the Dallas - Los Angeles cars that were carried WB in T&P No.1 from Dallas to El Paso and EB in T&P No. 8 from El Paso to Dallas and in the Sunset west of El Paso. Mark
1. is partially correct, eastbound only (in 1950 at least). But note the original question accounts for the Dallas cars, and states that the train didn't otherwise change length en route. Also note that the train length was the same arriving and departing San Antonio. The first part of nariq01's answer should help.
rcdrye KCSfan I can think of two possibilities. 1. They were the San Antonio - New Orleans cars. 2. They were the Dallas - Los Angeles cars that were carried WB in T&P No.1 from Dallas to El Paso and EB in T&P No. 8 from El Paso to Dallas and in the Sunset west of El Paso. Mark 1. is partially correct, eastbound only (in 1950 at least). But note the original question accounts for the Dallas cars, and states that the train didn't otherwise change length en route. Also note that the train length was the same arriving and departing San Antonio. The first part of nariq01's answer should help.
This suggests that the WB Sunset carried a drop sleeper from NO to San Antonio and picked up another sleeper in San Antonio that was carried to LA and conversely going EB.
It is possible that these cars operated as parlor cars over a portion(s) of their route with passengers paying just a first class fare without the berth charge.
I don't think this is right as (I thought) SP had better connections elsewhere.
Connection to Mexico City? Thru San Antonio - Laredo ?
Found it : http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/sunset195008.html
The east bound dropped a 10/6 that you could sleep in til 8am. And picked up a 10/6 that you could occupy at 930pm.
I take it the Sunset dropped a 10/6 and it sat there for the day. Then was picked up by the next train eastbound.
IGN has the full explanation. The original schedule hit San Antonio in the early morning hours, where a 10-6 was dropped and another picked up. Later the schedule shifted some and the car ran through eastbound with a westbound car sitting in San Antonio for the day. The entire practice ended about 1957.
Since Mark got half of the question, and no one has asked a new question on the other "at least 50 years ago" forum, why don't you guys put up the next questions on each forum?
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