CV owned several RPOs, both steel-sheathed and all-steel, but the replacement car, though it ran on the GT, wasn't lettered for GT. The Ambassador had a separate RPO contract, mostly handling Boston mail.
Other than the Grand Trunk Western, Grand Trunk, and Central Vermont, the only other USA Canadian National subsidiary was the Duluth Winnipeg and Pacific, so that must have been the label on the letterboard, unlikely as it seems. Unless the Canadian National itself had RPO cars specifically for USA service, which seems unlikely. If the Montrealer's RPO did not go north on either the Montrealer or the Ambassador, it must have gone north on a train not in the public passenger timetable, I assume some hot freight train, of possibly a dedicated mail and express job.
Just like on the Grand Trunk to Portland, the cars were lettered "Canadian National".
The train had the same name as the current service on the line. It was the Vermonter. RPO was Springfield and St Albans. The cars that ran on the Ambassador were Boston and Alburgh Vt. RPO and ran through to Montreal, with the RPO closed at East Alburgh.
One of the odd side effects of these services was the use of CV power on B&M trains from White River Jct to Springfield. One set of RPO-carrying trains ran both ways on the still-in-use CV line between Brattleboro and East Northfield Mass instead of using the B&M's line via Hinsdale NH northbound, like almost every other train did.
Did the Vermonter continue in operation as long as the Montrealer ran? Was it also a through train from New York (GCT instead of Penn)?
The Vermonter was the CV's accomodation train between St. Albans and White River Jct. In addition to the RPO, it carried the St. Albans sleeper that got cut into/out of the Montrealer at White River Jct. The RPO and the sleeper were the only through cars. It appears to have lasted until 1960 or 1961.
Go ahead with a new question, Dave.
The Vermonter was running while I started work on the Dartmouth Hopkins Center and started riding the Montrealer from NY to WRJc, but I had forgotton all about it. Also, I now recall that the Allouette, the modernized parlor on the Portland - Montreal Grand Trunk train i rode did have Canadian National on the letterboard. I don't remember what the coach letterboards said, but I suspect they were also CN equipment. You might know what percentage of the passenger rolling stock of the GT was GT and how much was CN.
Question: I was 7+1/2 years old when attending the 1939 New York Worlds Fair. Usually, we went home via the INS subway's special WF temporary branch, connecting through Forest Hills yard to the Queens main line at Continental Ave Station. Going meant taking the CC south from 86th St. to 42nd., walking through the underpass to the northbound platform, then the E to Continental Avenue, and then the GG, which was extended to the Fair during the Fair's open hours. Going home about 10:30pm, the trip was simplified by a through S for Special that ran from the Fair to Hudson Terminal, making all E train stops from Continental Avenue on.
But one evening at my insistence we used the Willets Point Station at the main entrance used at the time by both BMT and IRT trains. Going to the southbound platform, a train came in to a stop, and the conductor shouted "Connections to the North Only" several times.
What was that train? What kind of equipment did it have? Was it there the next summer, 1940, witht he Fair open? Was it there for the Fair some 22 years later?
If I had boarded that train, what would I have had to do to get to my destination on the west side of Manhattan at 86th Street? (Several alternatives, the fastest involving an additional fare)
What train did I board and how did I travel to West 86th Street on one fare?
Hint: The train had only three cars and carried a crew of three. Other trains, including the one I did board with my family were seven cars (or six) long. One year later this train would not have been seen at the location but a replacement with similar equipment would have made the return trip to Willets Point Bld WorldsFair Station and to layup overnight in the combined BMT-IRT Corona yard.
Another hint. Years later I regretted that we had not boarded that train and ridden it into Manhattan, regardless of whatever complications we would have had to reach West 86th Street. We missed a spectacular view and one that could only be had from a rapid transit train and that was not possible after three years later, and which I never enjoyed.
I did ride lots of streetcar lines in my youth in NYC, the Third Avenue Elevated many times, and remember the 6th and 9th Avenue elevated, having ridden them frequenctly, and even the 2nd Avenue Elevated in Manhattan. Have ridden around the IRT City Hall loop, the old Culver line to 9th Avenue, but there are some now-gone NYCity rapid transit lines that I did not ride.
Given it was a three-car train with three crew members, this should be snap for Chiago,as well as NY fans.
The only thing I can make sense of for Chicago fans would be the BMT's three-unit articulated cars that were pictured in drawings for Chicago's subways, which opened in 1943 with CRT steel equipment.
The had a crew of two, engineer (motorman) and conductor. CTA and CRT did run three-car trains with three crew members essential, and similar equipment operated in New York with the same number of crew members. This equipment was also used in both Chicago and New York for four-car trains with four crew members, five-car trains with five crew members, up to seven-car trains with seven crew members.
And another hint: At the time of the 1939 Worlds Fair, 2 out of three trains would be IRT on two different services on both the Astoria Line and on the Flushing Line as far as Willets-Point Avenue-Wolrds Fair, but only one out of the two IRT services continued beyond that pont to Main St. Flushing. Exception, in the direction of heavy traffic during rush hours, express service was operated on the Flushing Line, but the IRT service to Willets Point never used the express track for passenger service. Yet, during the rush hour, in the direction of heavy traffic, the IRT service to Wiilets Point on the Flushing LIne, running local on the Flushing Line was signed
" " " " EXPRESS.
And during non-rush hours, when it was signed " " " " LOCAL, it had a different Manhattan Terminal then it had during rush hours, and still a third terminal on Weekends and late in the evening during 1939 but not after Unification in 1940 to the end of service in 1942, when the service was replaced by a paper transfer. No service was provided just before midnight - 5AN.
Final hint: At one time ALL East River Bridges (except the Triboro) had rapid transit (or in the case of Hell Gate) tracks with regular service.
Brooklyn Bridge?
That was one bridge that did have rapid transit tracks, seven Brooklyn elevated lines used it at one time, but none ran to Corona and the Words Fare.
The only service there now is, of course, the No.7 Flushing line. But there were two other services before 1949. One was a BMT service, with their steel wide subway cars running to the then eight-track elevated Queensboro Plaza Station and connecting to modernized rebuilt elevated cars compatible with IRT platform running to Flushing and Astoria. The Astoria line was converted to BMT standards and the present arrangement instituted in 1949. But in 1939 and up to 1942 there were three services, two of which were IRT.
Wasn't there a subway line over the Queensboro Bridge to 2nd Av?
What I just read said that the BMT had service til 1939. 3 man crews for a short train because they were gate cars?
This is just a guess. I'll try to poke around a bit.
Thx IGN
Narig, you are partly on the right track but not completely. Yes, at one time there were rapid transit tracks on the Queensboro bridge, and it should not take too much effort to figure out to which Manhattan rapid transit line they connected.
From 1942 until until 1949 there were two different services on the Flushing line and ditto to Astoria, with both services on the Flushing Line offering express as well as local services. The standard metal signs on the IRT low-V and Worlds Fair cars had local in one direction and express in the other on one sign, and local alone on another, and depending on which side was on the exterior and which on the interior, the direction of the express service, with local return, was established. The express and local pattern was the same as it is for the 7 service today, but the service was less frequent, and there was also IRT service from Times Square to Astoria. Only "Steinway" Lo-V's and World Fair IRT cars were used on this service. The BMT services from 1938 to 1949 was provided by the Q-cars, two motors bracketing a trailer, all heavily rebuilt from wood gate elevated cars, now with sliding doors, lighted express local signs, and lighted Astoria or Flushing cars. Qeensboro Plaza Station was and 8-track station, with the four track two-level two-island platfom station the part of the earlier station used only by IRT trains . The present IRT tracks were the tracks to and from Times Square through the Steinway Tunnel. The prsesent BMT tracks were used by the IRT services to both Astoria and Willets Point Blvd Station in Corona, that finally quit in 1942. and these tracks were used only for special moves until 1949, when they were brought back into used for the new direct BMT steel car services to Astoria and just before that for shuttle trains required as the Astoria line platforms were cut back to accommoidate the wider BMT cars. On The BMT side, steel trains from Brooklyn and Manhattan, usually the 4th Avenue and Brighton locals, arrived on the upper level, northenmost track, and left directlly below, reversing in a pocket track, and possibly you can still see some steelwork for this track removed, beyond the point were the Astoria line swings north. "Q" cars with the narrower width typical of all elevated cars, used the lower level in and out for Willets Point Blvd. service and the upper level for Astoria service, if my memory is correct. Before 1938 these were gate-car elevated trains, using 1300-series composite steel and wood elevated cars, which were not rebuilt into the Q's but ended gate car service in NYC before being replaced by the Q's, which had migrated in 1949 from Queens to the 3rd Avenue Elelvated and then to Myrtle Avenue. The BMT elevated cars in the Queens service did run into Flushing. The third service, the second of the IRT services, that stopped altogether in 1942, ran just to Willets Point BLvd and never bezond that point, and never did provide the express service in Manhattan. But this service did use a _ Avenue Express sign during rush hours, as far back as 1932. But it was not an express during rush hours in Queens.
What was the service? No midnight - 5AM service, ever.
Not enough clues? I thought I gave the answer away. Should I now give the answer and ask another question? I am specifically asking about the train departing at about 10:15p, with one of the two conductors shouting "Connetions to the North Only." Up to about 10pm the specific service would connections both north and south, and before about 7:30 pm on a weekday the service would not need conections south, running through.
Don't any of you have a 1930's map of the IRT or the subway and elevated system in general?
How about this map:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1939.jpg
The map shows the line on the bridge, but because of the style of the map, you could mistake it for simply the bottom of the presentation of the 60th Street BMT tunnel. If you study the map carefully and then go an read the original quesiton, you should have the answer/
Remember, we are talking about one of the three services on the Flushing line, one being BMT Queensboro Plaza Flushing (both local and express) connecting BMT subway trains at Queensboro Plaza, the second being the IRT that is now the 7 line, and the question refers to the third, also an IRT service, but one running to Willets Point Blvd, one stop short of Flushing, and where late everning services from Willets Point Blv. have the conductor call "Connections to the North Only."
But the map is wrong in showing the service continuing to Flushing Main St.
daveklepper The map shows the line on the bridge, but because of the style of the map, you could mistake it for simply the bottom of the presentation of the 60th Street BMT tunnel. If you study the map carefully and then go an read the original quesiton, you should have the answer/ Remember, we are talking about one of the three services on the Flushing line, one being BMT Queensboro Plaza Flushing (both local and express) connecting BMT subway trains at Queensboro Plaza, the second being the IRT that is now the 7 line, and the question refers to the third, also an IRT service, but one running to Willets Point Blvd, one stop short of Flushing, and where late everning services from Willets Point Blv. have the conductor call "Connections to the North Only."
Rgds IGN
You need to look more carefully at your map. The line is shown but not obviously, The BMT was NOT on the 59th Street Queensboro Bridge. It was in the 60th Street tunnel. There has never been a rapid transit connection to LaGuardia. There was a streetcar line. Also one to the NYWF 1939-1940. And the two had joint track in a part of Queens and a part of Brooklyn. But we are talking about third rail rapid transit. And we are talking about a second IRT service sharing the line with one other IRT service and the BMT service.
Again, examine the map closely, especially the Manhattan end of the Quennsboro Bridge
I'm looking at several maps of various vintages and can only come up with a connection to the Second Ave El so the northbound connections were to the Bronx...youmay have had to change at 138Th St then to the Lexington Ave line, then at 125th St to 149th the Bornx athen th Lenox Ave line to 86th St,. Manhatten . Second El could also go south to I believe 14th St, maybe Canal St.
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You are part way there. So what would the destination sign of the train read? And why is the connection northbound only? And with just a three car train requiring three, not two, crew-members, a motorman (engineer on a railroad but motorman in the subway and on the elevated) and two conductors, not one, what would the equipment be?
The 6th Avenue elevated had all-night service, until it was forced to quite in 1938. So did the 9th until it quit at Unification, and even after that the Polo Grounds shuttle had all-nigh service. So did the 3rd Avenue elevated, but not the city hall or bronx park branches. The 2nd Avenue elevated was a block away from the Third.
Should not anyone at all familiar with the history of rapid transit (elevateds and subways) be able to determine the type of equipment used in a three-car train that requires two and not one conductors (trainmen) plus one motorman (engineer)?
If you see a connection to the 2nd ASvenue elevated, where is that connection and where is the destination for a train that connects to the north only?
And if there are no southbound trains for the train from Willets Point Blvd (World's Fair in 1939) what would be the reason?
Some Chicago fan should be able to answer if no one from the NY area does.
I can't figure what the Chicago link would be. Chicago open platform cars had a motorman and conductor for each car pair, plus an additional collector for each additional pair (or single car, if an odd number). The 4000 series had remote door controls that worked unless wooden cars were part of the train. The BMT had multi-unit PCC equipment that prefigured the 1946-1947 5000 series, but other than in an artists rendition of the State St. Subway, those never ran in Chicago. I suppose a two car set of then would require an extra conductor.
As i recall, both in Chicago and New York City, gate car trains, as NYers usually called them and one less conductor than the number of cars, except for a one car train having both a motorman and conductor. On a 1-car train, only the rear platform and gates were used, and the conductor was stationed there to operate the gates. On a two-car train, he was located between the two cars operating the gates on both cars, with the rear and front platforms of the train locked off and not used for boarding or exiting. Three cars would have two conductors, again with the extreme front and rear platforms not used. Seven car trains, the maximum run with gate cars on the IRT, would have six conductors. I rode such trains in both New York and Chicago, the latter in the summer of 1952 including the Stock Yards line, and did not see any difference in the operation between the two cities. Why would you need a conductor inside the car when the system was a prepayment system? Obviouisly, in both NY and Chicago, a conductor would be inside the car when not at a station, but his duty was primarioly operaton of the gates, and that required him to be on one of the other platform. Note the handles for operating the gates, and you can check this at IRM, allow a conductor on one platform to operate both gates, and if he uses both arms and hands, both at the same time.
I though this was general knowledge, Aploogies. Now can someone answer the question(s)?
Based on the map I'm going to say Bronx Park or E. 241st. If I remember correctly 1939 was the last year for the 2nd ave El, so the connection would not have worked in 1940.
Were they using Blue Birds? Or the Aluminum Green Hornets? I am kind of mystified and am just kind of stabbing in the dark.
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