That was 1900-1901
Chicago - State St. and Wabash/Cottage Grove lines
Mark
Chicago is the correct city. Actually ALL of Chicago's cable lines lasted until 1906, and all of them went electric the same year. The Settlement Ordinance removed the prohibition on overhead wires in the loop, and allowed for franchise extension, the two obstacles to electrification the companies had faced.
Chicago City Railway - State St and Wabash/Cottage Grove lines
Chicago Union Traction (North Chicago St. Ry) Broadway and Clark lines
CUT (West Chicago St. Ry) Madison, Milwaukee and Halsted/Blue Island lines
The companies were more than happy to drop cable operation - CCRy had been hauling Archer electric cars behind State St. grips for almost a decade. The downtown loops for each line were also accident zones. Consider these fun bits:
State St's loop ran a block east on Washington to Wabash, returning to State via Lake. Wabash/CG's loop ran a block east on Madison to Michigan, returning to Wabash on Randolph (between Washington and Lake).
For the block between Washington and Randolph, the two lines ran left-handed (under the Loop L after 1897), with the State loop turning from Wabash onto Lake under the NE corner of the loop L on a pull curve.
The Madison/Milwaukee loop ran left handed on State St. between Monroe and Madison with a pull curve at each end of the block, with State St. cars going in both directions.
The North Side lines used a grip that grabbed the cable from below ("top grip", by Low and Grim ) that was not very good at handling curves and crossings. Horses were stationed at the north end of the LaSalle St tunnel under the Chicago River to help if necessary.
The two west side line groups (Madison/Milwaukee and Halsted/Blue Island) used different grips, each having its own tunnel under the river.
The next question is yours, Mark.
73 Years ago you could travel in style between Shreveport and Memphis aboard a 10 Section/open platform observation Pullman car. What train(s) carried this car? Though still listed in 1946 Official Guides you could no longer make the trip in this car. Why was this?
I believe this was via the SSW (Cotton Belt). The Lone Star / or Morning Star and connection via Lewisville, AR. My father's birthplace by the way. As to why you couldn't ride it in 1946...well, I'd have to dig out the Guide on that one. Hopefully someone else can fill in the blanks.
FlyingCrow Mark I believe this was via the SSW (Cotton Belt). The Lone Star / or Morning Star and connection via Lewisville, AR. My father's birthplace by the way. As to why you couldn't ride it in 1946...well, I'd have to dig out the Guide on that one. Hopefully someone else can fill in the blanks.
Buck, you've got the trains right - Cotton Belt No's 1 & 2, the Lone Star, and connecting trains No's 201 & 202 between Lewisville and S'port.
Because it illustrates a point, the crux of the question is why you couldn't ride this car despite it being listed in the equipment section of the Cotton Belt schedules.
Buck, since you're familiar with the area you might like to learn that the ex-Cotton Belt Shreveport Subdivision from Lewisville to S'port has been upgraded to include CWR, lengthened passing sidings and CTC. The same is true for the ex-SP S'port - Houston line (the old HE&WT "Rabbit"line). Both lines are now part of the UP's south bound directional St Louis and Memphis to Houston routes and now see lots more trains than ever before. The northbound route is via former T&P and MP lines through Longview and Little Rock.
The former joint Cotton Belt / SP river front yard has been reduced to 4 four tracks and no longer serves as a classification yard. UP crews are changed at S'port and there are often 3 or 4 trains staged there waiting for new crews to continue south to Houston.
Perhaps this hint will help answer the question. While you couldn't take the Shreveport to Memphis Pullman at the time, the fact that the car was shown in the March 1946 OG indicated that the Cotton Belt expected this service would be restored in the near future.
I will guess that this Pullman line was one of the less-than-500 miles routes that were suspended in 1945 to provide enough equipment for redeployment of troops from the European to the Pacific theater.
CSSHEGEWISCH I will guess that this Pullman line was one of the less-than-500 miles routes that were suspended in 1945 to provide enough equipment for redeployment of troops from the European to the Pacific theater.
Bingo, we have a winner. The listing of this Pullman in the March 1946 OG is followed by the notation, "(Discontinued account ODT Order No. 53)". For those not familiar with it, ODT was the Office of Defense Transportation. I don't know whether or not operation of this car was ever resumed as I have a gap of several years from 1946 to the next OG available to me. This car had run in Cotton Belt trains No's 201 and 202 and the next OG I have no longer lists these trains which had been discontinued in the interim.
Good going , CSS. Gee, kick me....when you posted that I felt really . Mark, my great grandfather owned the Moore Hotel, specifically for SSW crews , in Lewisville, I know the line well. My dad's best friend, journalist Ernie Deane (no relation but how about two close friends with the same last name save one letter?) was born in that hotel...his father the seniority Cotton Belt engineer on 201 & 202.
fun..thanks for the question
Sometimes you just get lucky. Next question: South Shore has long been described as the "last interurban" by the railfan fraternity. There is also a legal qualification for this title. What is the legal qualification?
I'm going to guess that the original CLS&SB predecessor's charter was issued under whatever Indiana laws pertained to interurbans, rather than with a steam road charter. Mason City and Clear Lake (Iowa Traction's ancestor), like most Iowa interurbans, was no different from any other railroad in Iowa.
If my memory serves me right, the oldest piece of what became the CSS&SB was the Chicago and Indiana Air Line. This is not the same as the Chicago New York Air Line, whos only segment became part of Gary Rys. System.
The legal qualification is that more than one metropolitan area is served. In this case, South Bend, Michigan City, and Gary were all towns large enough to qualify. The suburban communities served by the Chicago and West Towns were not large enough to qualify. In the New York area, Third Avenu Railways served New Riochelle, Pelham, Mt Vernon, and Yonkers with lines to subway and local streetcar connection in the Bornx, New York City. But it was not an interurban because none of thee suburbs were large enough on their own to be metropolitan centers. And they were contiguous built-up areas.
But actually, whatever it started as, the CSS&SB did become part of the National Railroad system, as did the other two Insull interurbans, and at one time had what then was Class I revenue status. Legally, at that point, is was an electrified railroad and had to meet the standard imposed on railroads, which were not as restrictive as today's but more restrictive than those imposed on interuban lines. It was under ICC juristiction.
daveklepper is on track in that it's related to ICC classifications but he's not quite there.
This is just a SWAG. To qualify as an interurban is there an upper limit on the percentage of revenues that come from commuter service - say less than 50%?
It could not be listed as a pure commuter railroad or rapid transit system because it crossed a state line. This is the reason why PATCO from Philadelphia to Camden and Lindenwald is legally an interurban line.
Technically the South Shore ended at the Indiana State line. The Kensington and Eastern was IC property.
Correction: That was a reason for PATCO, and still is, and possibly PATCO is that LAST USA interurban line despite a physical plant that defines it as a third rail heavy rapid transit line (without any freight service). But the real reason for CSS&B being classified as an interurban IN THE PAST, is that its passenger and freight trains used tracks not under ICC juristiction, but that were part of at least one local streetcar system, Gary, and possibly Michigan City and South Bend as well. Once it became the exclusive user of these tracks, it lost is reason for being an interurban line and became a regular railroad. The other two Insull Interurbans never lost that distinction, because the CRT-CTA tracks they used to enter downtown Chicago were not under ICC juristiction
South Shore intertwined with Gary Rys, Hammond Whiting and East Chicago, and Chicago South Bend and Northern Indiana (at both Michigan City and South Bend), but never ran on their tracks. In CLS&SB days the city street sections ran on 750V AC, post 1926 on the same 1500V DC used outside the cities. C
The North Shore kept the Chicago and Milwaukee Electric Ry alive to the end to keep the Milwaukee street trackage franchise. Streetcar service was "suspended" in 1951, but never abandoned.
"Never ran on their tracks?" OK, but the principal still holds. The street trackage was streetcar trackage and not subject to ICC regulation, subject to State PUC regulation. Even today, South Shore trains stop for traffic lights in Michigan City and run on-sight railroad-wise without signal projection, except at the interlockings at the start and finish. But now that track is under FRA regulation. Formerly, it was not ujnder ICC regulation. Legally, today, the CSS&SB is NOT an interurban, but a freight railroad with a commuter authority allowed to run passenger trains over it just like Brandywine Branch is a freight railroad with Amtrak allowed to run the Cardinal over it. Legally, they are now both in the same boat.
Wrong on all counts. It relates to ICC statistical classifications not directly related to regulation.
I know I am right about the South Shore today. It could not possibly be classified as an interurban railroad today. And I believe I have read articles that have stated the fact that it is now a normal regional freight railroad. So --- I am not wrong on all counts.
Can you hint at just what statistics you have in mind? It could not be a passenger vs freight matter, because the LIRR was far and a way primarily a passenger carrier (and some of its lines could very well pass physically as third-rail interurban lines, once you left the Jamaica - Penn Station main line). Could it a percentage of local travel within city limits? Percent of mileage that was once local streetcar, strung together? What percent of business is freight interchanged with standard railroads? Former use of freight equipment that did not meet interchange standards? (If there was such freight equipment, it was disposed of a long time ago, but this seems a reasonable answer.) There are freight switching railroads that were never classified as interurbans that ran primarily in street trackage, so I guess that is out.
The ICC kept statistics of all sorts in various classes including interurbans. The South Shore was the last, and for several years the only, railroad in the "interurban" class. Reportedly, the ICC had asked South Shore to request re-classification so the interurban class could be closed out.
No right answer, but I'll give daveklepper the next question based on his persistence.
I hate to bring up a subject. But I have to ask.
Did the ICC ever close out the Interurban class? If so when?
I would kind of say that PATCO might not class as an interurban. It is essentially a closed system like BART or PATH. (by the way how did PATH's predecessor Hudson & Manhattan class) By closed I would say no grade crossings, no interchange, enclosed right of way. The same at this point would also apply to P&W(I think)
South Shore at this point in time has more in common with LIRR. Publicly owned, minimal freight, essentially a commuter railroad. Though LIRR has considerably more traffic.
Merry Christmas to everyone
Thx IGN
I have it on the word of Bill Vigrass, who was transportation manager of PATCO and manager of physical plant engineering during design and construction, that PASCO was and is legally and interurban line. If it had not requested that classification, it would have been classified as a railroad and had to meet more stringent inspection requirements and rolling stock with greater anti-telescoping strength and thus greater weight. I believe it is the only rail line so classified today.
Hudson and Manhattan was classified as a railroad, and I suspect PATH is still today. But may have obtained an exemption on car strength.
Legally, the South Shore and the Long Island are exact opposites! The South Shore is now exclusively a freight railroad and does not run any scheduled passenger trains. It allows the Northern Indiana Transportation Authority to run a passenger service on its tracks, and that State organization pays rent to do so.
The Long Island Railroad is a State agency under the State MTA. It only runs passenger trains and does not run any commercial freight trains. The New York and Atlantic Railroad is a privately-owned freight railroad that uses the Long Island Railroad's tracks and pays rent to do, and does not run any scheduled passenger trains. It now does the work at Bay Ridge and at Fresh Pond Junction and all freight sidings on the LIRR. It interchanges with CSX, PO/W, and CP at Fresh Pond Junction and yard, reached by those railroads via the Hell Gate Bridge. Also with Cross Harbor.
Eventually, ll scheduled Boston and Maine passenger trains were operated by Budd RDC equipment, one of the last holdouts being the Monteraler/Washingtonian, which was discontinued on or just before Amtrak's start on 1 May 1971. That train was operated in conjunction with the CN. CV, NYNH&H, and PRR. But while it was running, all suburban service into Boston had been converted to RDC operation, except for one strange holdout, that was not RDC. What equipment was that? Who built it, for what purpose, and what was its history?
The Montrealer/Washingtonian was discontined in late 1965, ending sleeping car service on the B&M. The Ambassador hung on as a conventional train (still a B&M train between Springfield and White River Jct Vt.) until 1966, coinciding with the end of B&M's RDC service from Boston.
The trains you are looking for are the Boston-Reading round trips with FM P-12-42 locomotives and ACF-built Talgo cars. One engine ran on each end of the consist. B&M and NYH&H each got one set for high speed testing. New Haven also got the six car RDC "Hot Rod" set and a Pullman "Train X" set powered by Baldwin Diesel-Hydraulics.
The FM "Speed Merchants" had 1600 HP 12-cylinder engines, but had the first HEP equipment to draw power from the main engine - hence the 1200 HP rating for traction power. My 1964 B&M employees timetable notes a severe speed restriction when the Talgos were operated with only one locomotive.
You not only got the right answer, but you also corrected a mistake in my memory. I had thought for many years that the Ambassador was discontinued before the Montrealer/Washingtonian, not after. What confused me, of course, was the Montrealer's revival under Amtrak, using that name in both directions. I rode the rain a few times in its first incarnation as well as its second. Not just from and from Montreal, but also to and from White River Junction for visits to Dartmouth College. I never got to ride the Ambassador. Saw it a few times, however. Did ride the NYC-D&H overnight Montreal Limited, the Laurentian, Red Wing, and of course the Allouette.
Your question.
I missed riding the CV/B&M Montrealer/Washingtonian by less than a decade. I have ridden pretty much every version of Amtrak's M/W, Montrealer and Vermonter since 1973, and have lived within earshot of the CV (now NECR)'s Roxbury Sub south of White River Jct since 1977. Of current interest is the NECR converting the longstanding ABS between Windsor and White River Jct. to CTC, with a short extension up the White River valley into former dark territory.
The PRR-NH-B&M-CV-CN Montrealer gave up its northbound RPO to another CV train north of White River Jct. Since the contract called for CV to supply the RPO, it was usually a CV car. When the CV car was out of service, another car clearly marked "United States Mail Railway Post Office" was substituted. What railroad's name was on the letterboard of the car? What was the train, and the end of the RPO run?
You mean the CV owned only two RPOs? If the contract called for a CV car, then any substitute would be a GT (or GTW, but GT more probable given proximity) car, since both the Grand Trunk and CV were owned by the CN, and a GT car would also meet USA standards. I don't know of any other train from WRJ to Montreal on the CV other than the Montrealer and the Ambassador at the time, so I presume the car would lay over and run north on the Ambassador.
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