Senator Oakland-Sacramento (SP)
Cincinnati-Columbus (CCC&St.L)
Boston - Washington (NH/PRR)
rcdrye Senator Oakland-Sacramento (SP) Cincinnati-Columbus (CCC&St.L) Boston - Washington (NH/PRR)
That is the name I was looking for. The next question is yours.
This western name train changed train number and timetable direction in the middle of its run at a point where it did not change crews. It also bypassed the largest population center between its endpoints, and was the longest (geographically) north-south run on this particular rairoad.
It must have been an AT&SF train that ran through to LA bypassing SF, possibly thorugh to San Diego, and going over Tehachapie instead of a bus connection from Bakersfield. I don't have the resources to check on such a train, but there may have been one and someone else might be helped by this hint if correct.
rcdrye This western name train changed train number and timetable direction in the middle of its run at a point where it did not change crews. It also bypassed the largest population center between its endpoints, and was the longest (geographically) north-south run on this particular rairoad.
Johnny
The West Coast was a Portland-LA train, heavy on mail and express but still carrying sleepers that changed timetable direction at Davis, a bit west of Sacramento, as it came off of the Tehama Sub onto the "Cal-P". Crew changed at Sacramento. In 2012, the east leg of the wye which was used by the West Coast is long gone. The train was cut back to a Sacramento-LA overnight in the 1950s before it was discontinued. It missed the Bay Area completely.
Back to you for the next question.
It is interesting, but the January, 1930, Guide does not indicate any change of number at Davis even though the direction of operation had to change there, and does show a change south of Sacramento.
In 1915, the Santa Fe did have through trains between Oakland and Los Angeles, and the Saint and the Angel had through sleepers between San Diego and Oakland, which could have bypassed LA but did not.
Now: before Amtrak, there were several interesting passenger tariffs in effect (and Amtrak continuing using these for several months), such as the competitive rates between various cities served by competing roads. One example was the tariff between Montgomery, Ala., and Washington, D.C.--whether you went directly via Atlanta (813 miles) or via Jacksonville (1070 miles), the fare was the same. I benefitted from this tariff when I requested a ticket from Birmingham to Jacksonville to Washington to Jefferson City and back to Birmingham by way of Indianapolis.
In February, 1972, I bought a round trip ticket from Birmingham to San Francisco that had twelve coupons--and none of them read to or from San Francisco. The ticket included a free side trip from A to B and back, 133.5 miles each way. What was the routing?
It's possible that the West Coast used the current Starlight route direct to Sacramento instead of the Tehama sub via Davis at various times during its long career, but there are photos of it on the wye at Davis. The direction and number change (59/15 and 16/60) happened at Davis even though it wasn't a passenger stop. I'm not sure if SP's practice of changing train indicators was followed consistently since Davis was only 13 miles from Sacramento.
As for your alternate routings... at one time I could have done this in my head - I was actually writing such tickets in 1972. Coupons for underlying carriers were dropped in 1974 or 1975, and preceded by "A-" in 1973 and 1974 (except SR and D&RGW). Since I can't write you an SP Commute coupon to or from San Francisco we'll stick with Amtrak routes at the time. The loop tariff allowed one stopover in each direction, so your fare basis was Chicago to San Diego. Alternate routings from Chicago to west coast points lasted until at least mid 1974 - the last eastern one I remember allowed Chicago Washington New York (All PC/PRR) at no extra cost and also expired in 1974. Let me try a couple of options:
Trip one: RT Birmingham Chicago, RT Chicago San Diego via Oakland, returning via New Orleans - 12 coupons
Birmingham L&N Lousville PC Chicago
Chicago CB&Q Denver UP Ogden SP Oakland: Denver Zephyr/City of San Francisco
You could have used D&RGW on the middle leg but your "Oakland" stopover would only have been valid on certain days of the week, since the "Rio Grande Zephyr" left before the "Denver Zephyr" arrived (or vice versa), and an overnight stop was required in Denver.
Tickets to Oakland were honored to San Francisco on the bus to Transbay Terminal until mid-1974, when a separate coupon was required ($1.50 if memory serves)
Oakland SP LA Depending on day of week Daylight or Starlight
Here your round trip to San Diego kicks in - but your mileage is off because the Santa Fe table includes National City at 133.5 miles from LA (San Diego is 127.9)
LA ATSF San Diego
San Diego ATSF LA
LA SP New Orleans
New Orleans IC(G) Chicago
You could substitute LA SP Houston ATSF Chicago if New Orleans was too far for you.
Chicago PC Louisville L&N Birmingham
Option two:
Take the six coupons RT Birmingham Chicago and LA San Diego and as a given, use this route to "San Diego"
Chicago MILW Minneapolis BN Seattle Easy connection on the North Coast Hi, not so good on Empire Builder to
Seattle BN Portland SP Oakland take your allowed stopover in Oakland
Oakland SP LA
LA ATSF Chicago
A third variant that might not have met the loop tariff requirements and only gets you eleven coupons
Birmingham SR New Orleans
New Orleans SP LA
and reverse the route via Seattle returning Chicago IC New Orleans, New Orleans SR Birmingham.
Heck of a question...better heck of a response BUT, and believe me I'm not being picky here but that involves an event ONLY 40 years ago. Just referring to the premise of the TOPIC.
The tariff was in effect before the fifties, and the ticket could have been written in the fifties, with the name of one railroad being different. I will admit that one train (with a pre-Amtrak train, with the same name and end points) ran on a different routing before the advent of Amtrak(pre-Amtrak, it would have required two more coupons to go the way I did go)--but the routing did make possible a stopover from which I took a side trip by bus to visit a woman whom I had met the previous year when making my first trip to the Pacific Northwest, and we married the following summer.
At that time, each road used by Amtrak required its own coupon, and one road required a separate coupon for each of two legs (I had thought one coupon would serve, but I was wrong.
The fare basis was Chicago-San Francisco.
If you have access to Trains magazine in the early fifties, you can find the account of a trip which David P. Morgan and another man took, using the Chicago-San Francisco tariff.
I did not have a stopover in Oakland, nor did I go through New Orleans (the entire trip was on Amtrak trains). Also, I was not informed of any limit as to the number of stopovers; I spent two nights in each of two places, one night in one place, and three nights with one of the stopovers.
But does RC get to ask the next question?
Yes, Rob has the onus of asking another question.
My ticket read: Birmingham-Louisville (L&N)-Chicago (PC)-LA(SFe)-San Diego (SFe)-LA (SFe)-Portland (SP)-Seattle (BN)-Minneapolis (BN)-Chicago (Milw)-Louisville (PC)-Birmingham (L&N). Whoops! it was only eleven coupons; I must have been thinking about my stopover in Pasco so that I could visit in Boise (by bus: Pasco-Walla Walla-Pendleton-Boise and back; my penultimate trip with overnights by bus). Going, I spent a night in Peoria and a night in Rock Island (bus between the two) so I could ride the remaining available RI lines, two nights in Palos Verde Pen. (before going to San Diego). Coming back, I spent one night in Seattle and one night in Boise.
David P. Morgan's trip, using the same tariff, was west on the North Coast Limited from Chicago, and then south to LA (free side trip to San Diego) and then back by way of Texas, on the Sunset Limited, so he could visit his father (he did have to pay extra to go that way).
Prior to the 1960s this was the southernmost city in the U.S. that saw Canadian National locomotives operating in regular service.
rcdrye Prior to the 1960s this was the southernmost city in the U.S. that saw Canadian National locomotives operating in regular service.
WAG: Portage, In?
Rgds IGN
IGN, I think Valpariso was a bit further south than Portage on the GTW. Possibly CN locomotives might have run as far south as Toledo on the D&TSL which was jointly owned but the GTW and the Nickle Plate.
Mark
CN locomotives did not operate in regular service on the Grand Trunk Western until the 1970s. The regular service operation began in 1949 and lasted into the late 1950s, at least. The American built lcoomotives replaced by CN units were among the smallest of their wheel arrangement.
You guys are close on latitude. Valparaiso is just a bit south of the city I'm looking for,
I think CN locomotives operated into White River Junction, VT, over the Central Vermont on occasion.
And they also opeated on the Grand Trunk, not the Grand Trunk Western, into Portland, ME.
CN units did operate over the CV into Vt. and sometimes all the way to New London. But also on the GT into Portland, ME.
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New London it is. CV trip-leased CN units, usually FM CFA16-4 cab units but also occasional F7s, for the through freight to New London from about 1949 to about 1957. This directly relieved the CV's 2-10-4s (the 700 series, see the Fall 2012 Classic Trains issue) which had to be turned at Brattleboro anyway. The 700s help out until the end of CV steam pulling the through freights interchanged with B&M at Brattleboro. The line south of Brattleboro had a number of light bridges and required units of about 2-8-0 size, often doubleheaded with a few cars between the engines. The diesels could run through. The practice ended when CV got its GP9s.
Your question, Henry!
Oh, and I thought it was really Portland, Maine! OK..but give me this day to conjure up a question....
Thanksgiving Day 2012. I'm thinking! I'm thinking. In the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving.
And Happy Thanksgiving from sunny Jacksonville, FL to all on the board!
Ok...lets try this. I am in New York City and booking a rail ticket and Pullman space to Oil City, PA. Routing please. Date is not important but most direct routing is.
The shortest route would be Erie NY (Jersey City) to Corry and PRR Corry - Oil City 518.7 miles.
An all PRR route via Philly, Harrisburg and Corry would be 543 miles. An all Erie route via Meadville would be 546 miles, just slightly longer.
I'd have to do a bit more research to find out if Pullman service to Oil City was available on either or both the PRR from Corry and the Erie from Meadville.
The March 1937 OG shows a through 12 Sec/DR sleeper carried in PRR train No. 581 between NY and Corry and train No. 950 between Corry and Oil City. The same OG shows there was no rail passenger service to Oil City on the Erie but lists connecting bus servie via the Walsh Bus Line between Meadville and Oil City.
Gonna give it to KCSFAN. Erie is not only the shortest but the car was cut off the main at Meadville so it there was no change of cars.
Mark, you've made your mark here, now it's your turn to do so with a question for us.
Before it was absorbed into the Southern Ry System The Queen & Crescent Route consisted of five different railroads. What were these five roads? The SR In 1926 leased two of the five to still another railroad which subsequently operated them as part of its system. What two RR's were these and to what road were they leased?
The pieces that stayed in the Southern Railway System:
Cincinnati New Orleans and Texas Pacific
Alabama Great Southern
New Orleans and Northeastern
The other two ended up in the Illinois Central's system
Alabama and Vicksburg
Vicksburg Shreveport and Pacific
The A&V and the VS&P were merged together (and further subsumed under IC's Yazoo and Mississipi Valley) under the IC diamond. Some locomotives were sublettered for Y&MV/VS&P into the diesel era. Of course the Southern System sublettered for Q&C roads right up to the NS merger.
One minor addendum, New Orleans & Northeastern was absorbed into Alabama Great Southern some time prior to 1970.
rcdrye The pieces that stayed in the Southern Railway System: Cincinnati New Orleans and Texas Pacific Alabama Great Southern New Orleans and Northeastern The other two ended up in the Illinois Central's system Alabama and Vicksburg Vicksburg Shreveport and Pacific The A&V and the VS&P were merged together (and further subsumed under IC's Yazoo and Mississipi Valley) under the IC diamond. Some locomotives were sublettered for Y&MV/VS&P into the diesel era. Of course the Southern System sublettered for Q&C roads right up to the NS merger.
A+, absolutely correct. Next question Rob.
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