Name the interurban lines that offered overnight sleeping car service, the end-points served, startup and ending dates, the last use of this equipment in railroad service, and an innovation that certain of these sleeping cars pioneered.
I'll start this with Interstate Public Service. overnite Louisville Indianapolis I think. 3 cars numbered 166 - 168 respectively named Indianapolis , Scottsburg & Louisville. Eventual disposition to Pacific Great Eastern(ritish Columbia) demotored converted to non electric thence BC Ry as MOW equipment(bunk cars I think).
Trying to think if Sacramento Northern(or predessors) had sleeper service, The other sugestions would be Oregon Electric and Illinois Terminal.
I don't have my copy of Interurban Era with me or I would qute from there.
Thx IGN
PS Interstate did do something innovative I just do not remember what it was.
Unless someone else comes up with more information, I will count you as the winner. But what innovaiton did the Indianapolis - Louisville sleeping car service introduce? (I often wondered why Pullman used it only very rarely.) The cars did not have to be demotered, they were always trailers, not motor cars, pulled by one of the medium-weight combines. The SN never had sleeper service to my knowledge, but the other two are correct and the only other USA interurbans that had the service. I think one of these two also had cars that ended up on PGE. Note that the Indiana Railroad did operate the Interstate Public service sleeping cars for about 1-1/2 years under their management.
Also in Carstens Traction Planbook I found a reference to a pair of 1903 built for Holland Palace Car Co for operation over the Indianapolis & Eastern and the Appleyard Syndicate from Indianapolis to Columbus ,Oh In 1906 these cars went to Illinois Traction were overhauled & refitted and then IT used for service from Bloomington , Springfield, Decatur & St Louis. til 1914.
When I formulated the answer I was thinking of which systems were long enough to have had an overnite operation.
As to innovations, the only thing I can remember reading was the use of swivel chairs(Probably wrong)
Was the innovation windows for the upper berths?
My first experience with such windows was in the car American Sailor, which I rode in from North Cairo to Birmingham in June of 1966. I really do not remember seeing anyting outside; I more or less simply noted that the windows were there. The UP was a great user of sleepers with windows in the uppers.
My second experience was in a Viewliner, from Washington to Jacksonville in May of 2007--but perhaps it should not be counted because I did not even notice the windows while in the upper.
Johnny
YOu are correct, the innovation was windows for upper berths. I think the Interstate cars had this, but I will check to make sure, since the CERA IR book has a picture. I think this was also true of the IT cars, which ran Springfield, IL - St. Louis, always, sometimes from Bloomington. (I don't think Peoria had IT sleeper service.) I do not think the OE cars had them.
Anyone with more information, please add.
I await your question, Narig01.
The drawings in Carstens Traction Planbook show them. Also aoout a year or two ago Classic Trains(I think or Trains) did an article on these cars and the restoration. At least one made its way to a museum. Rgds IGN
And the photo in the CERA Indiana Railroad book shows them also. How about the next question?
The Pullman car Circumnavigators Club(originally built as the Brady) a 8 section Buffet Observation had a unique feature for the era in which it was operated. This feature was designed to circumnavigatge(pun intended) not only federal law but the constitution as well. I suspect other cars of this type and era may have had this feature as well. It was not in any of the plans or drawings for the car.
What was the feature and the reason?
I will comment I was shown this at the (now) Western Railway Museum.
In 1930 and 1931, the Pullman Company built new 13 cars with 8 sections, buffet lounge, and observation--all with the name ending in "Club." I imagine that several older cars, including the Brady were rebuilt about the same time--during Prohibition. I would say that the feature which was not shown on any plan was one which allowed for the secret storage of quantities of beverages that the 18th Amendment to the Constitution forbade being manufactured, transported, imported into, or exported from the United States and its territories for beverage use.
How can you say that a major american corporation would do such a thing!!! Do you think that this company would violate the rights of americans to not be tempted by alcoholism and dependancy!!!
Porter bring us another round of bourbon on the rocks please.
Johnny you got it.
Where was Homeland Security when you really needed it?......
....Oh.
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henry6 Where was Homeland Security when you really needed it?...... ....Oh.
Having a beer! Thx IGN
New question:
In 1950, two particular trains were still being operated in the Northeast United States and into Canada. Part of the name of one was "Mount," and part of the name of the other was "Mountain." The full name of one could tell you the name of one of its terminals, and the full name of the other could tell you the name of some of the scenery you saw if you rode it.
Give the full names of the two trains, the roads that operated them, and the terminii of both.
Extra credit: the junctions between the operating railroads.
FYI, Brady was originally a 16 section sleeper, built in December, 1917 or January, 1918, and was rebuilt in December of 1932 to Circumnavigators Club, according to Pullman Panorama, Volume 1 (p. 78)
The Day White Mountains Express was a NYC-GCT - Littleton, NH Connecticut Valley train operated by the NYNH&H and B&M via Springfield. Rode it in 1945 from Clairmont Jc. to GCT. after riding from Concord, NH in second-hand B&M ex-PRR P54 coaches pulled by a 2-6-0, The Day White Mountains express had a mixture of B&M and NH cars, possibly with an American Flyer or two, but our camp special car was not air-conditioned, a heavyweight. Power was a Pacific both on the B&M and the NH to New Haven, where an EP-3 took us to GCT.
One train with Mount as part of its name was a winter-only ski train operated by the B&M, but I forget the name of the mountain. Although operated primarily for ski vacationers, it was a regularly scheduled timetabled train, and I think it ran Boston - White River Junction and return, either via Concord or via Bellows Falls.
Another may have been the Mount Royal, either Portland, ME - Montreal on the Grand Trunk and CN, or Boston - Montreal on the B&M-CV-CN.
Then there was the Mountaneer, two sections, Montreall - New York, CN, CV trackage rights, Rutland, Troy, then NYC to NYC-GCT, and Montreal - Boston, CN, CV trackage rights, Rutland, Bellows Falls, and B&M to Boston. It ran as one train Montreal - Rutland. The Tory - New York New York Central train often combined the Mountaneer and the Laurentian off the D&H, which ran via Troy and not via Albany and Schenectdady in those days.
Dave, you have hit on eight things: Montréal and NYC as terminii, Mount Royal as a train name, and the Rutland, CN, NYC, and B&M as four participating roads, and Troy as an interchange point..
But "Mountain" is the word in the name of one of the trains, not "Mountains" or Mountaineer." Also, the NYNH&H and CV had no part in these trains. And, the Rutland did not get into Troy.
You are right that the Laurentian was combined, southbound, with one of the trains (northbound, the train was combined with the Advance Empire State Express).
The Rutland certainly did go to Troy, regularly, and interchanged with New York Central there. It was the regular passenger interchange point for the Rutland. It got there via trackage rights a few miles over the B&M, and I am blocking on the name of the junction. What I said about the Mountaneer is correct, but possibly not for the timetables of the specific time you are looking at. And the Rutland also needed trackage right for a short distance on the Central Vermont to interchange with the CN at Rouses Point (if that was the correct interchange location).
About two years ago, an issue of Classic Trains had photos taken by a railfan who had been a student (possibly at RPI) and showed the Rutland's Mountaneer at Troy. And mentioned that it was combined with the southbound Laurential off the D&H.
Could the Mount Royal have been used as the name of the New York Central's own train to Montreal via Massena? A long way around, but there was a through night train with one or more New York City GCT - Montreal sleeping cars at one time. And it used CN trackage in Canada. At one time it dropped off sleeping cars for Lake Placid. These were later shifted to the route via the D&H, but at at the time the NYC ran through to Montreal, they went via the NYC.
And there probably was at one time a Rultand train named the Green Mountain Limited or Green Mountain Express, running from Boston to either Rutland or Montreal, and this would be B&M (Bellows Falls) and Rutland, with CN added if it ran through to Montreal (via Rutland). But again, CV trackage rights were used to access the CN.
Note that the all Central route to Lake Placid had the train coming to Lake Placid from the west. When the train went via the D&H, it came to Lake Placid from the east. But the Mount Royal was not an overnight sleeping car train, since you called out the trains with which it was combined. It must have been the day train on the through route via Messina, with parlor cars and coaches, and through cars to Lake Placid.
Remember, too, the Rut came down to Bennington, VT and across to Chatham, NY handing off trains to the Harlem for NYC entry.
As far as I know, at least since 1930, the Catham connection to the Rut was used for freight service only. The through trains operated by the Central on the Harlem line, turned east at Catham, ran to Pittsfield, and then up to North Adams. Post-WWII there were two trains a day that went that far if my memory is correct, and one had dining and parlor service.
The Rutland-B&M train to Boston, I finally remembered, was the Green Mountain FLYER. And it of course did not serve Troy, but the Mountaneer did.
But didn't at least the Rut milk train go via Chatham til the end?
Dave, please give up on the Mountaineer; as I said yesterday, that word was not in the name of either train.
As to the Rutland’s entry into Troy, the timetable shows that another road carried the trains between the Rutland connection and Troy. Trackage rights do not enter into the full answer.
My source is the February, 1950, edition of the Guide.
No, Mount Royal was not the name of any of the NYC’s three trains into Montréal, which used the CP station. There was no through train shown in my source.
I did not name the desired train that was combined with certain NYC trains, but I will say now that it was not the Mount Royal.
1. I am absolutely certain that the Rutland operated its fine 4-8-2 mountain type locomotives into Troy, because I saw them myself when going to and from Saratoga Springs via the NYC and D&H through trains, which usually had a Hudson south of Troy and a D&H 4-8-4 north of Tory. Possibly you are right, thoughm, and a B&M crew may have ran the train into Tory from the Junction (Rotterdam Junnction?) but with the power and other equpment running through.
2. I did give up on the Moutaineer. The train I am suggesting now is the Green Mountain Flyer, for the Rutland, Boston - Rutland via Bellows Falls, and perhaps on to Montreal, but of that I am not certain.
3. From what you have written, if the Mount Royal was not the train that was combined with the Advance Empire State Express and the Laurentian, then possibly the Mount Royal was a through train that ran uncombined between New York and Montreal, possibly on the D&H, possibly on the Rutland.
Or does Canada itself count? There may still be a Montreal - Toronto train by that name. Or Montreal - Ottawa.
Henry, you are right, I had forgotton about the milk train, which did also carry passengers. And one reason it went to Catham instead of Troy, is the at least one milk car went east to Boston on the B&A and not to New York. Passengers had to change trains in Chatam, since the rider coach did not go through.
But there were at one time through NY-GCT trains to and from Montreal. Indeed, a bit of history. At one time the NYC did have its own line right into Montreal and did use CP's Windsor Station. But later, its trackage paralleling the CN was abandoned with trackage rights on the CN substituted, and I think the remaining passenger service was moved to CN's Central Station as a result. Possibly by that time a change of trains in Utica was necessary.
I rode what is now the Adarondack Scenic Railroad to Tupper Lake, once, and back, with a change in Utica necessary. But I came by train from Boston, not New York.
The Adornadack Div. did have passenger service into Ottowa at one point. I'm not sure offhand if the Montreal train was part of this train or not....it might have been up from Syracuse via Massina. The Mount Royal sounds familiar as a D&H train. The Montrealer was a CN-CV-B&M-NH-PRR train.
Rode the Montrealer many many times, and the southbound Washingtonian, which kept that name until Amtrak's revivial which was the Montrealer both ways, if my memory is correct. One memory fails me. Although the D&H Laurentian used Windsor Station, does not today's Adorondak use Central?
The current Amtrak timetable shows the "Adirondack" as using Central Station.
Quote CSSHEGEWISCH: "The current Amtrak timetable shows the "Adirondack" as using Central Station."
Yes, my wife and I have taken this train in and out of Central Station several times. The last two trips, she was treated to being taken up and down on an escalator while in a wheel chair--which was quite an experience, especially the first time, as we expected the redcap to use an elevator.
In February, 1950, the Rutland did not have any train named Green Mountain Limited, Green Mountain Express, or Green Mountain Flyer, but that does not eliminate Green Mountain as the name of train that was then operated.
I do not doubt that Dave saw Rutland locomotives in Troy, but, as he said, that does not mean that the Rutland operated them into Troy.
Rotterdam Jct., west of Schenectady, was a B&M-NYC connection.
Now, to close this out.
The February, 1950, Guide shows two trains that were operated between Montréal (Canada) and New York (NE USA) over the CN, Rutland, B&M, and NYC. The junctions were, in order, Rouses Point, North Bennington, and Troy. There were through coaches, Rutland-Boston via the B&M east of Bellows Falls; they, of course, did not go from/to any Canadian city. The day train was the Green Mountain(it was called the Green Mountain Flyer in the NYC’s representation for the southbound; the Rutland may have changed the name not long before), which was combined with the Central’s Laurentian southbound and the Advance Empire State Express northbound where the trains’ routes were the same. The night train was the Mount Royal, which was combined with the Iroquois northbound where the trains’ routes were the same.
Dave is the only one who has presented the answers, even disjointedly, to the question, so he may now present another puzzle to us.
Where did the decombination with the NYC through trains take place? The Green Mountain and Mount Royal did not run into Albany, and the NYC thorugh trains, except for the Laurentian, which was NYC-D&H via Troy at the time, did not run into Troy. So they must have had an operational stop, probably not for passengers, at Rensselaer, for the decombination operation.
Just in passing, note that Baltimore also has a Mount Royal, and this was the site of the first North American railway electrification, and possibly the first electrification in the world that handled regular freight and passenger trains, not specialized equpment. The electrification lasted until post-WWII diezelisation. Possibly someone can check and see if the B&O also had at one time a train named Mount Royal, possibly one of the Jersey City - Washington Royal Blue Line trains.
And then there is Moutain View, one of the two regular-asigned bedroom, master room, lounge, observation cars for the Raymond Lowry 1948 Broadway Limited. I was a small investment shareholder in Pullman Classics Limited, which owned the car for a time. Rode it both on the Broadway and in charter service. (Rode it in the rear seat leaving Chicago, and I certainly did not have the scratch for a Master Bedroom! Happy to be able to afford one of the Duplex rooms in one of the Creek cars ahead on the train. Expense account did cover that.) The other car was Tower View. Both are preserved.
My question should be a snap. A number of North American railroads had place names that were never reached, or never reached directly. Rio Grande Southern, Denver and Rio Grande, Denver and Rio Grande Western, St. Louis San Francisco, New York Chicago and St. Louis, New York Westechester and Boston, Wiscassett and Quebec, New York Chicago Air LIne, and there are others. What well-known passenger train had multiple locations in its name but only served one directly, the others reachable, but only by connecting trains?
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