Did not I mention TH&B before Carl? And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937. And the Denver and Salt Lake did not get merged into the D&RGW until after WWII. Was it not also a Class I on the basis of revenue?
Add Fort Worth and Denver City. reached the latter only via connection with the fellow Burlington system Colorado Southern.
daveklepper Did not I mention TH&B before Carl? And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937. And the Denver and Salt Lake did not get merged into the D&RGW until after WWII. Was it not also a Class I on the basis of revenue? Add Fort Worth and Denver City. reached the latter only via connection with the fellow Burlington system Colorado Southern.
Dave,
In your prior reply you listed "Hamilton, Toronto & Buffalo" when I guess you meant TH&B. Since you did not have the name correct I gave the credit for that road to Carl. Incidentally the TH&B ended at Welland not Suspension Bridge.
The New York, Westchester and Boston may have been a Class I at some time, but I don't find it in any list of Class I RR's that I have for the time period of this question. If I'm wrong about this I'll stand corrected and give you credit for this one.
The D&SL was indeed a Class I and failure to credit you for listing it was an oversight on my part for which I apologize. The FW&D is a good call and credit goes to you for mentioning it.
Mark
Chicago & Erie ? Not sure if this made the Class I list. Was merged into Erie in 1947, after having beeen leased. Furthest west Marion, In east to Columbus. Oh. Also the "Erie" may refer to the lake.
Rgds IGN
narig01 Chicago & Erie ? Not sure if this made the Class I list. Was merged into Erie in 1947, after having beeen leased. Furthest west Marion, In east to Columbus. Oh. Also the "Erie" may refer to the lake. Rgds IGN
Good call IGN. I was not familiar with the Chicago & Erie but a little reasearch I confirmed it was indeed a Class I and retained its identity until it was merged into the Erie so it definitely joins the other roads mentioned so far.
Mark...ok, I took a crack at the M, StP & SSM due to the fact it took the DSS&A merger to reach the Soo Locks. Yah, I forgot the small branch on the DT&I. So ....hmmm....
Ok...how about the Savannah & Atlanta. If you don't count parent C of Ga's track Camak to Atlanta, then it qualifies.
One of the "marginal" roads is the NYC subsidiary, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, or the BIG FOUR ROUTE. It's entry into Chicago was via trackage rights over the IC from Kankakee. The problem here is that NYC absorbed the line in the 20's but continued to separately roster locomotives, track and other equipment as Big Four for some time. Not sure if this qualifies...a rule "stretcher".
The S&A's parent (after 1951) CofG didn't have any track from Camak to Atlanta, Buck, that was the Georgia Railroad.
You must've had a senior moment, Buck, because I know you knew that.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
FlyingCrow Ok...how about the Savannah & Atlanta. If you don't count parent C of Ga's track Camak to Atlanta, then it qualifies. One of the "marginal" roads is the NYC subsidiary, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, or the BIG FOUR ROUTE. It's entry into Chicago was via trackage rights over the IC from Kankakee. The problem here is that NYC absorbed the line in the 20's but continued to separately roster locomotives, track and other equipment as Big Four for some time. Not sure if this qualifies...a rule "stretcher".
Buck,
The S&A certainly qualifies. I had it on my list and was beginning to wonder if you and our other southern railroad experts like Bob Hanson and Johnny (Deggesty) had forgotten about it.
The New York Central gained control of the Big Four in 1906 and it was fully consolidated into the NYC System in 1922 so it doesn't meet the separate corporate entity criterion.
I'm not sure if it's technically correct to say that the Big Four entered Chicago via trackage rights over the IC. The trackage rights arrangments that I'm familiar with involved the run through operation of road A's trains headed by road A's engines, manned by their own train crews, over the rails of road B. With one exception, Big Four trains ran between Chicago and Kankakee behind IC engines manned by IC engine crews and the passenger trains had an IC conductor (in addition to a NYC conductor) on board. The lone exception was the James Whitcomb Riley which, in its early years before dieselization, ran all the way to/from Chicago behind a streamlined NYC Pacific. The relatively low volume of Big Four freight traffic on this route was either consolidated with regular IC freights or ran as an IC extra train between Chicago and Kankakee. On the other hand, in the early 50's when I attended Purdue, I often rode Big Four trains between Chicago and Lafayette and I don't recall my tickets having an IC coupon for the Chicago - Kankee portion of the trip. If there was a trackage rights agreement between the Big Four and the IC I would consider it a "hybridization" of the normal arrangement.
daveklepper And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937.
And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937.
You have aroused my curiosity. I would think that NYW&B operating revenues would meet the ICC specified threshold for Class I status. I base this on the number of NYW&B trains running between its Harlem River Sta., Port Chester and White Plains trains shown in my March 1937 OG. However, I've researched all the lists of Class I RR's that I know of and the NYW&B doesn't appear in any of them.
It's interesting to note that the H&M, CNS&M (North Shore), CA&E, and CSS&SB (South Shore), which all are other electric lines that I know met the operating revenue criterion, are not listed as Class I's either. On the other hand, the Pacific Electric, Oregon Electric and Piedmont & Northern are all shown as Class I's. I can only conclude that the ICC must have some other criteria, not just operating revenue, that had to be met in order to qualify as a Class I RR.
Mark, I have not felt I really had the time to work on this.
As to the Big Four, I am not fully familiar with its operation between Kankakee and Chicago, but the IC employee timetable I have did show the Big Four trains as being foreign road trains. When I first saw the Riley at Central Station, it had an NYC engine on it, and when I rode it from Cincinnati to Chicago in 1969, I needed only one coupon. The NYC public timetables gave no indication that that another road carried the trains into/out of Chicago, as I recall.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that if a road reaches a city by way of trackage rights, it can be said to have reached that city. So far as passenger timetables are concerned, the tenant road seldom, if ever, indiciates that it does not reach a particular city, though the employee timetables show, of course, that another road is used (as a Seaboard System timetables shows that the tracks of four different roads are used for its trains to get into Washington, D.C., from Gordonsville).
Johnny
I have a January 4,1935 Big Four public timetable...which will add to the confusion...the map shows two routes to Chicago, one marked CCC&STL between Indianapolis and Chicago, the second, from Cairo, IL crossing the StL to Cincy route at Paris and continuing to Davnille, IL then marked NYC from there to Chi meeting the Water Level Main at Indiana Harbor and into Chi that way and crossing the Cincy- CHi route at Sheff, IN. Schdules put the Cairo trains via the latter route terminatng at LaSalle St. and the former route (Cinc to Chi) terminating at Central Sta, Mich Ave. & Roosevelt Rd. There is no schedule, condensed or othewise, which would show one how to go from St. L to Chi! I am guessing those who know, or knew, Chi can determine the route by the Chi terminal...and I''m guessing the Cairo train (the Egyptian, round trip) was NYC while the Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago trains are the ones most likely using IC rails.
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Henry,
I'm sure glad you brought this up because I had completely forgotten about the Egyptian route between Chicago and Cairo and the fact that it was a Big Four line.
Johnny,
Do you remember the year when you saw the Riley with a NYC engine on it at Central Station? I lived less than a block from the IC's six track mainline in the suburbs south of Chicago from the time I was born in 1932 until I moved to the western suburbs in 1959. As a kid I spent my spare time alongside (sometimes on) the tracks waiting for and watching the trains. During that time the Big Four trains that I saw daily were always headed by IC motive power (GP's after dieselization) with the exception of the Riley in its early years when it ran behind the streamlined NYC Pacific. I'll bet you had a pretty rough ride on the Riley in 1969 because by then the former Big Four trackage was in terrible shape after years of neglect.
I totally agree that a road should be said to reach a given city whether on its own rails or by means of trackage rights.
Mark, it was in 1968. I had gone up to spend the day in Chicago, and while waiting for the Panama to be opened up, I looked out and saw a train with an NYC engine (I think it was an E) on it--so it must have been the Riley. The next year, when I rode the Riley from CIncinnati to Chicago, I did not notice, particularly, the engine.
My trip to Chicago and back was Southern Crescent Tuscaloosa to Birmingham, Seminole to Chicago (sadly, no sleeper), Panama to Carbondale (seat in parlor), And Seminole to Birmingham. Sadly, I missed the connection to Tuscaloosa because there had been a wreck on the IC above Haleyville, and neither the Southern or the Frisco was in a hurry to expedite a late IC train, so I had to take Greyhound back to Tuscaloosa. As we passed the wreck site, I saw that even though the track had been cleared there was much work to be done in clearing the wreckage (I remember noting one car that had turned turtle (even though it was not a turtle top car)).
Deggesty Mark, it was in 1968. I had gone up to spend the day in Chicago, and while waiting for the Panama to be opened up, I looked out and saw a train with an NYC engine (I think it was an E) on it--so it must have been the Riley. The next year, when I rode the Riley from CIncinnati to Chicago, I did not notice, particularly, the engine.
I know for a fact that all the NYC Big Four Route passenger trains ran between Chicago and Kankakee behind IC GP's up until 1959 and assumed that practice continued on until Amtrak times. Admittedly my first hand knowledge ends when I moved from that area in 1959. I am inclined to think that the train you mention seeing at Central Station in 1968 was a NYC Michigan Central Route train rather than the Riley. To see if that might be the case you could check your OG's to see if there was a MC route arrival or departure around the time the Panama was scheduled to leave. Since I don't have any OG's for the latter 1960's I'm unable to check this out myself.
Mark, I just looked at the November, 1967, issue, and the Michigan Central was already using the LaSalle Street station then. Could it be that the IC was unable to provide an engine that day?
New York, Susquehanna & Western? Jersey City.
http://timetabletrust.com/images/07394-1942_56.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=G1ENevqcHHcC&pg=PA12
You asking a question wanswheel? NYSW yes into JC via Erie connecting just outside the Bergen Cut. Pics shown at Susquehanna Transfer, the NYSW station right under the Route S3 approach to the Lincoln Tunnel on the west side the hill. Large parking lot was also a (the first?) park and ride for Public Service and other bus routes into NY's Port Authority Bus Terminal.
If a railroad runs its own buses (or trucks, for that matter) into a city, is it serving the city? The buses that the SusiQ ran into New York were either operated by or for the railroad and no other passengers rode them. So possibly the railroad can be termed as serving New York City!
daveklepper If a railroad runs its own buses (or trucks, for that matter) into a city, is it serving the city? The buses that the SusiQ ran into New York were either operated by or for the railroad and no other passengers rode them. So possibly the railroad can be termed as serving New York City!
Of course the NYS&W would not qualify as an answer to the current question because of the word "Western" in its name. But it's still an interesting issue which isn't limited to buses or trucks because ferry and carfloat service should, by the same reasoning, be considered.
There are three more roads that haven't been mentioned yet. Two of them are eastern roads - one is a bit obscure but the other should be easy to name. The third one is west of the Mississippi (but just west of it) and I had never heard of it until I did the research for this question.
I'm going to close out this question tonight so we can move on to another. At that time I'll post the names of any remaining roads and tally up everyone's answers to determine our winner.
Deggesty Mark, I just looked at the November, 1967, issue, and the Michigan Central was already using the LaSalle Street station then. Could it be that the IC was unable to provide an engine that day?
I wasn't aware that MC Route trains had been moved to LaSalle St. Sta. and just assumed they continued to use Central Sta. until Amtrak times. It's possible the IC was short an engine that day but I'm inclined to think it more likely the operating practices had been changed by that time and NYC engines were run through to Chicago on all the remaining trains. I imagine that by 1967 the number of daily trains on that Big Four Route had dwindled to two (or three at the most) one of which was the JWR. But I don't have an OG for that time period to verify this.
Having ridden Detroit - Chicago service on the Central both before and after the move from Central to LaSalle, I would like to give the following from dredging my memory. I don't think the move happened all at once. The first step was moving the Wolverine, at the time the only remainiing through train from the east (New YOrk and Boston) that ran through Detroit. Then later the trains from Detroit and the one with through cars from Toronto. Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. I abandoned the Central's passenger service and switched to the Grand Trunk Western's Mowhawk when snack bar service replaced diners on the Central, except when traveling between Ann Arbor and Chicago.
daveklepper Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. .
Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. .
The Michigan Central trains serving Chicago were always headed by NYC run-through engines regardless of whether they terminated at Central or LaSalle St. stations. When they used Central Sta. they ran over IC rails only about 15 miles from 115th St.-Kensington which was where the IC and MC lines diverged. The only NYC trains that were headed by IC engines were those on the Big Four Chicago - Cincinatti route.
One more comment about bus/ferry "extensions" of rail service. Out here on the "left coast", we never got our own version of the Hudson Tunnels. The San Francisco Chief, San Francisco Challenger, City of San Francisco, as well as all of the other well known "San Francisco-bound trains" from the north and east, such as the California Zephyr, Cascade, Sahsta Daylight, and Golden Gate, only reached San Francisco Bay. ATSF, SP, WP all required transfers at Oakland or Richmond to a ferry or interurban car or bus (depending on the time frame).
The only true service from San Francisco to (and across) the Mississippi was during the earlier periods, when SP ran the Sunset Limited as a New Orleans -- San Francisco train, going through Los Angeles, and up the Coast Route. (Towards the end of pre-Amtrak service, SP used the tri-weekly Sunset equipment -- including Pennsy's New York - Los Angeles through sleeper! -- as the Coast Daylight. But I've read that, at that time in the '60's & '70's, they required passengers to get off in Los Angeles and re-board,)
Perhaps the ferry-bus-truck extension of railroad service's reach would make another (interesting?) thread.
OK it's time to wrap this question up. Here's the box score:
Buck Dean - 5 correct (M&StL, NC&StL, AC&Y, SP&S, S&A)
Davek - 3 correct (D&SL, NYC&StL, FW&D)
Carl - 2 correct (CStPM&O, TH&B)
Narig - 1 correct (C&E)
Buck is our winner and gets to pose the next question.
The three oter RR's that no one identified were the Pittsburg & Shamut (which didn't reach Pittsburg), the Quincy, Omaha & Kansas City (a Burlington controlled road which didn't run to Omaha) and the Erie (which reached Lake Erie at several points but Erie, PA was not one of them).
I can hear the protestations now about including the Erie. I personally think that Erie referred to the lake not the city. But, on the other hand, one could argue that if that was the case why wasn't it named the Lake Erie RR like the W&LE, P&LE and C&LE?
One note Mark, about the Erie...it was named for Lake Erie not Erie, PA and initially laid rails from Piermont on the west shore of the Hudson, about 20 miles north of New York CIty, to Dunkirk, NY, about halfway between Buffalo, NY and Erie, PA., never having put its eye on landing in Erie, PA....the Erie was built as the New York, Lake Erie and Western and was referred to as "the Erie" decades before gaining that as the coporate name.
Let's not forget that railroads were named, sometimes, for predecessor canal companies...such as the C&O, and, I believe the ERIE.
NEW QUESTION
Mickey Mantle certainly saw this line in operation and might have ridden it when it was an interurban. By 1963; however, it was part of the FRISCO.
MARK: THANKS FOR THE CORRECTION. POSSIBLY THE WOLVERINE CHANGED POWER IN DETROIT FROM A MOWHAWK TO A HUDSON?
Flying Crow, no, the Erie derived its name from being the New York, Lake Erie, and Western shortened to "the Erie" and "Erie" by vernacular usage, time, and eventual reorganizations. It was chartered and built from Piermont on the Hudson to Dunkirk on Lake Erie.
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