Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856723 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 574 posts
Posted by FlyingCrow on Saturday, September 17, 2011 3:45 PM

No, you are it and one of your answers is correct.

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 422 posts
Posted by Dragoman on Saturday, September 17, 2011 5:21 PM

Aw, shucks!  I was afraid this might happen.  (Obviously not afraid enough to keep my mouth shut!)

Well, I am going to guess that the Sunset sleeper spat wit the CA PUC is what you were asking for.

And, since you've said it was one of mine, then I will also assume that I am truly "it".

I don't have a question right now, so will think on it for maybe a day or so.

And, if anyone out there has been hankering to present a question, and just didn't have any good answers, I will not at all be offended to let you "cut in front of me in line", as it were.  Just speak up!

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,061 posts
Posted by narig01 on Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:47 PM

Just a question.  Was the earlier mentioned RDC the one that came from or went to the Northwestern Pacific?

Thx IGN

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 574 posts
Posted by FlyingCrow on Saturday, September 17, 2011 9:25 PM

Dragoman

Well, I am going to guess that the Sunset sleeper spat wit the CA PUC is what you were asking for.

And, since you've said it was one of mine, then I will also assume that I am truly "it".

I don't have a question right now, so will think on it for maybe a day or so.

Naw... the answer I was looking for was none other than the dreaded AUTOMAT cars.   

The first two Automats were ex-Tavern cars. They went to scrap before Amtrak. One ran regularly on the overnight "Owl" and carried a noticeable sag, and this one exhibits serious pier panel pucker; these early truss-frame cars may not have taken kindly to the added weight of the vending machines. Or the insult.     I believe there were a dozen or more ex-6-6-4 cars (I don’t have my roster handy), and later incarnations saw the section partitions removed, and two of the windows in the former bedroom area enlarged. They were painted inside in the Sunset Limited “French Quarter” watermelon pink, and chairs were upholstered in multi-colors. 

Anyway....next!!!!    

Dave....by the way.   What did the Scioto Valley and Galveston-Houston traction lines have in common? They were the only two interurban systems to be abandoned without having ever posted a loss.

ta da

Take it away...anyone    Cool

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:22 AM

New information.   Probably read it in Hilton's book but forgot it.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:48 AM

FlyingCrow

Take it away...anyone    Cool

Buck, since no one else has responded, I am taking your invitation to pose a new question.

At one time many rarilroads operated both standard and 3' narrow gauge lines. As "recently" as 1937 (and possibly a few years afterwards) a part of one railroad's route was standard gauge and the remainder narrow gauge but not 3'. What was this ralroad and what was the gauge of its narrow gauge segment?

Mark

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 422 posts
Posted by Dragoman on Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:24 PM

narig01

Just a question.  Was the earlier mentioned RDC the one that came from or went to the Northwestern Pacific?

Thx IGN

I believe that is correct.  When the PUC finally allowed to SP to drop its Oakland -- Sacramento service (except what was handled by its long-distance trains, such as the City of San Francisco), the NWP (which was a wholly-owned SP subsidiary) got the RDC to cover the Redwood, for which the PUC did not so quickly allow discontinuance.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 19, 2011 3:07 AM

I am unsure as to when the Boston and Maine abandoned its rail connection with shuttle passenger service to the Mount Washington Base Station, and at the time, the B&M ownded the Mt. Wshington Cog.   So at the time its route to Mt. Washington's peak was standard gauge to the Base Station and then the existing cog narrow gauge of four feet even to the summit.

I doubt this is what your are looking for thought, but the thought might be interesting.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Monday, September 19, 2011 4:28 AM

The B&M/Mt. Washington Cog connection is not what I am looking for. The line I have in mind is far removed from that locale and the entire road, both standard and narrow gauge, operated under one railroad name.

Mark

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 574 posts
Posted by FlyingCrow on Monday, September 19, 2011 7:31 PM

Mark

Wracking the brain here....are we staying in the US with this one?

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,061 posts
Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:45 AM

1937 abandonment?  One of the Maine  2  footers?  I can remember reading somewhere that one or  more had  some standard gauge(4' 8 1/2") for interchange  purposes. I do not recall which.

Rgds IGN

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,061 posts
Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:01 AM

1937 abandonment?  One of the Maine  2  footers?  I can remember reading somewhere that one or  more had  some standard gauge(4' 8 1/2") for interchange  purposes. I do not recall which.

Rgds IGN

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:56 AM

The Pacific Electric's line to a resort on top of a moutain in California, where the line up the mountain was I think 3-1/2 foot gauge, ah yes, Mount Tamalpas, conencted with the standard gauge at the base station.   Some return trips were made by special gravity cars wihtout power, only brakes.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:33 AM

Yes, this was a U.S. railroad located in a western state and not a Maine 2' road. Not the PE either - this was a steam freight hauler whose passenger service ended prior to 1937.  Its early ancestor started with horse drawn cars on strap iron rails.

Mark

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:46 PM

Here's a hint for you. The railroads standard gauge connection was with the Northwestern Pacific.

Mark

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:08 AM

Another hint. Locals called this RR the Annie and Mary.

Mark

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:14 AM

Arcata & Mad River??  Mostly known as a logging road.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 12:20 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Arcata & Mad River??  Mostly known as a logging road.

Bingo, we have a winner and the next question is yours to ask.

The A&MR was listed in the OG's of the 1930's as a common carrier. It is shown as having 12.9 miles of narrow gauge trackage from Arcata to Korbel and 7.5 miles of standard gauge from Korbel to Korblex in the redwood country of northern California. The index section of the OG's used to show the gauge of any non-standard lines which is what caught my eye and prompted me to learn more about this little road.

Does anyone know the unique gauge of its narrow gauge trackage?

Mark

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:20 PM

GE standardized its diesel locomotive production with the Universal Line.  What was the first Universal line locomotive to be built, by railroad and road number?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 574 posts
Posted by FlyingCrow on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:32 PM

Perhaps the St Louis-San Francisco #804-807, U25B , Ex-Ge Demonstrators.     (High Hood units)

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:50 AM

A few years earlier.  The U25B was a late addition to the Universal Line.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,061 posts
Posted by narig01 on Thursday, September 22, 2011 7:33 AM

I do not remember the road number. It is shown in the 2md diesel spotters guide.  

     An Erie RR unit. originally built as an export demonstrator.  Ended up being used as the Demo unit for GE when they introduced the U series.  Also GE had an A-B-B-A (I think) set of test units also built in the late fifties

 

I'll leave it up to someone else to look it up and answer.

Thx IGN

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,061 posts
Posted by narig01 on Thursday, September 22, 2011 7:41 AM

The wikipedia entry, on Arcata & Mad River shows 4'9 1/2". That is an unusual gauge.  As a 1851 RR this would make it Californias either oldest or 2nd oldest RR. Though with strap rails and horse drawn it makes it sound more like a plank road. 

     You learn something new every day.

Thx IGN

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, September 22, 2011 9:53 AM

narig01

The wikipedia entry, on Arcata & Mad River shows 4'9 1/2". That is an unusual gauge.  As a 1851 RR this would make it Californias either oldest or 2nd oldest RR. Though with strap rails and horse drawn it makes it sound more like a plank road. 

     You learn something new every day.

Thx IGN

IGN,

4'-9 1/2" would be wide, not narrow, gauge and I believe this is another of Wikipedia's frequent inaccuracies. I have a 1937 OG that lists the A&MR narrow gauge to be 3'-9 1/4" which I believe is correct. I also have conflicting info that its predecessor dates back to 1854 and I don't know if that or the 1851 date is correct. In either event it was indeed one of California's earliest RR's.

The road was originally built to link Humbolt Bay with the Trinity River gold mines. However during most of its lifetime it mainly carried redwood logs and finished lumber. It was some years after the NWP reached Arcata before a connection between the A&MR and NWP was established. I believe that was in 1914 making the A&MR completely isolated from any other RR for the first 60 years of its existence. The "Annie and Mary" was definitely unique in many respects!

Mark

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 22, 2011 10:16 AM

Was this California's very first railroad?

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 422 posts
Posted by Dragoman on Thursday, September 22, 2011 12:02 PM

As noted, the A&MR apparently used iron-sheet-covered wooden rails until the 1880's, though as IGN (nariq1) says above, that sound "more like a plank road."

The first standard-gauge iron-rail road in California is commonly reported to have been the San Francisco & San Jose RR, built in the early 1860's.  Around 1870 it was taken over by the Southern Pacific (like almost everything else in California transportation in the late 19th century!), and is today (for the most part) the route of the Caltrain Peninsula commute line.

So, how do you define "first railroad"?

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 22, 2011 12:05 PM

narig01

I do not remember the road number. It is shown in the 2md diesel spotters guide.  

     An Erie RR unit. originally built as an export demonstrator.  Ended up being used as the Demo unit for GE when they introduced the U series.  Also GE had an A-B-B-A (I think) set of test units also built in the late fifties

 

I'll leave it up to someone else to look it up and answer.

Thx IGN

The four-unit GE test bed eventually became Erie 750 and predates the Universal line.  Think beyond our borders.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 8,156 posts
Posted by henry6 on Thursday, September 22, 2011 12:08 PM

ALCO-GE sent out seveal all black test locomotive lash ups...the FA's and the DL's.  Erie took the FA's while the NH got the DL's.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 574 posts
Posted by FlyingCrow on Thursday, September 22, 2011 7:19 PM

OH...shucks...the UD18's for the N de M then.    I was thinking of more of a production line model, which, coincidentally, is the photo of the day on the Classic Trains front page.    

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, September 22, 2011 7:23 PM

Excerpt from Annual Report of the Board of Railroad Commissioners of the State of California (1889)

ARCATA AND MAD RIVER RAILROAD.

First railroad in Humboldt County, California. Incorporated in this State, December 15,1854; called Union Plank Walk Rail Track Company. Building the track from Arcata to the flats in Humboldt Bay, to the ship channel, two miles long, for carrying passengers and merchandise. This track was made of wooden rails; gauge, forty-five inches, with a fourwheeled car, drawn by one-horse power. In the year 1875 the railroad was extended from Arcata northeast three quarters of a mile to Jolly Giant, for the purpose of hauling lumber from the mill to the wharf. In the year 1876 the railroad was extended northwest to the "Dolly Varden Mill," one half mile from Arcata, for hauling lumber. During these years all lumber and merchandise were hauled on wooden track rails, four by four pine, on cars drawn by a horse. This year they built the first steam dummy, called the "Black Diamond," working by two oscillating engines, pulling about six cars on a level track; capacity of cars, two thousand five hundred feet.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=IDRWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA20

Excerpt from Southern Pacific Bulletin (1920)

To the Sacramento Valley Railroad is usually accorded the honor of being the first constructed west of the Rocky Mountains; but this property belongs to the Cascade Railroad. The Sacramento Valley, however, was the first in California, and the first for a number of years in importance. This was constructed in 1855 and 1856, from Sacramento to Folsom, a length of twenty-two and a half miles, and at a cost of $1,100,000-a very large sum, considering the level country over which it was made.

The Sacramento Valley and Placerville Railroad is an extension of the first, running from Folsom to Shingle Springs, in El Dorado county, a distance of twenty-six miles.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fxc9AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA22

Excerpt from Overland Monthly (1875)

He [Theodore D. Judah] talked and wrote about a transcontinental line long, probably, before anyone on this coast seriously entertained the idea of ever investing a dollar in the project. Educated at the Troy Engineering School, and having been resident engineer on the Connecticut River Railroad from Northampton to Vernon in Massachusetts; having surveyed and built the railway from Niagara Falls to Lewiston; having occupied a position as engineer on the Erie Canal; having been resident engineer on the Rochester and Niagara Falls Railroad; and having held the same position on the Buffalo, Corning, and New York Railroad, he was an engineer well instructed in the theory and practice of his profession, and he gave up a lucrative office to come to California to survey and build the Sacramento Valley Railroad - to inaugurate, in fact, railway building on this coast.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcIRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR2

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter