Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[al-in-chgo]

Re: " If your cousin Webb had been able to be at the station about ten in the morning, he could have seen both engine changes--nb Tennessean and sb Pelican." 

-- Maybe he was at one time or another!  By the time I spoke with him over forty years had passed.   Webb wasn't big on names but he was into the romance of the rails, big time.  He practically worshipped Graham Claytor.   --   Chicago Al

 

 

[daveklepper]

First, I appreciate your declaring me the winner, despite my having put TV (wrong!) instead of stainless steel (right!) as the tech innovation. Fact is, after I left the hotel computer terminal I used when one at the Hebrew U. Mt. Scopus campus isn't available, and began preparations for the Sabbath, the whole business did come back to me including memory of the Budd adds. Among other things, they said this was the first railroad stainless steel train electrically powered end to end (the two Congressionals). But of course they were wrong. There were the pre-WWII French Budd Paris - Versailles and Paris - Chartre mu trains (which may still be in operation, I rode them in 1960!) And there was the five section 1934 Budd "Little Zephyr" articulated train, one car with six trucks and five bodies, later 7029, built as one of three experimental trains for the BMT, regularly operated on the Franklin Shuttle until some time in 1954 and scrapped in 1956. A beautiful subway train with interiors by the same Philadelphia architect who did the Super Chief interiors. And in 1950, the transit authority bought a ten car R-11 train from, mechanically and electrically the same as the 1948-1949 R-10 ACF cars. This experimental subway train led to the mass purchase (I think over 300- cars) of the R-32's, some of which are still in service, but probably in their last year, with at least two to be saved as museum items. These were bought in 1962, and these Budd built cars have outlived most of the later B-Division R-38's (all gone), R-40's and R-40m's (ditto) and R-42's (some still running). As well as the Red Bird R-33's and R-36's on the "A: (IRT) Division. A tribute to Budd's construction. These were the first Pennsylvania Railroad Budd TRAINS. And the Senator equipment was completely owned by the PRR, except for any head end stuff that might get added or temporary assignments of other equipment from the New Haven. The arrangement was that the two premier daytime trains Boston - Washington were the Federal and the Colonial. The first would be completely equipped by the PRR (and its dining car crew and parlor car attendants ran through to Boston) and the Colonial by the New Haven (only postwar cars and its dining car crew etc, ran through to Washington). But these were not the first stainless steel cars bought by the PRR. They bought stainless steel cars for their share of the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, possibly also the Southerner, Silver Rapids 10 and 6 as their share of the pool for the transcon car of the CZ, and stainless clad cars for the East Coast and West Coast Champions. Also RDC's for Seashore Lines and the LIRR. To me, with the Tuscan Red letterboard and gold Pennsylvania lettering, and really beautiful interiors, these Budd PRR trains were the most beautiful trains the East Coast ever saw, and I would match them against the 20th Century or any of the Florida streamliners. There is no record of any having run behind steam. Shortly after they were introduced, the New Haven dropped its fires on the last road power, with an I-4 Pacific hauled Boston, Wilamantic-Hartford-Ceder HIl Yard, shore line to Boston fan trip. The beautiful I-5 Hudsons had been scrapped a year and a half earlier. But behind a GG-1 or an EF-3 or EP-4 they looked great, (Yeh, I know, some liked the Box Cab EP-4's better.) And behind a back-to-back pair of PA's? Obviously, I was sorry to see Amtrak convert them into non-reclining high-capacity coaches for NY-Phila Clocker service and Keystone service. If a GG-1 is ever restored to operation, this is obviously the equipment that should be restored to go with it. My question: What were the first North American articulated streetcar or light rail cars, how and why were they constructed, which city used most of them and for the longest time, and what was their main advantage and their main dissadvantage. What was their popular nickname? One hint: None are in used in NORTH AMERICA today.

[passengerfan]

I know very little about light rail and streetcars but I will take a guess that the first articulated streetcars might be the ones that ran across the Oakland Bay bridge before WW-II. I think they were articulated to keep weight down for use across the bridge. The name escapes me for the moment I was just reading something about them the other day.

Al - in - Stockton

[daveklepper]

I was looking for something much much earlier.   The units you are talking about are the Key System Bridge Units, bult to modernize the interurban runs across the Bay Bridge to the SF Transbay Terminal.   They were new bodies, built I think by Bethlahem Steel, on trucks and motors and control equpment taken from old wood traditional interurban cars, being scrapped at the same time.   The principal of articulation is the same as most light rail cars today.  Similar articulation was used on the earlier 1929 or 1930 era 5000 series cars of Clevaland Transit System, also two bodies on three trucks, which replaced most moter-trailer combinations on Euclid Avenue.  The Milwaukee electric had similar interurban cars, also the Baltimore Washington and Annapolis, and there were many gas-electric doodlebugs built this way.  All but ten of the currently in-service light rail cars of a current system are also two bodies on three trucks, and this system also operated a majority of the type of articulated car that introduced articulation to USA's passenger street railways.   There are cars of this type still to seen in operation in Europe, I am told.   Possibly some are even relatively new.

 

Returning to some loose ends on previous questions.   When the Senator and Congressional Budd trains were ordered, the PRR ordered some twin diners, articulated, three trucks two bodies from Budd.   These were delivered after the Congressional and Senator train sets and replaced the 1948 diners on the Broadway, the very first stainless steel equpment on the Broadway.   All were painted tuscan red over the stainless steel, but Penn Central later sandblasted the paint off  and even polished the stainless steel!   The also showed up on some other trains as well, Spirit of Saint Louis, General, etc.  On the Broadway the interrupted interior designs influenced by the Loewy office with a decor by the Philadelphia architect referred to earlier.   Beautiful cars.   Under Penn Central, they even showed up on the "Steel Fleet.", the nameless remains of the Century and others.   I think some Budd 22-roomette sleepers may have also come to the PRR, similarly painted.

 I visted Charlottesville, VA many times.  I  never heard the Southern RR-owned station referred to as the Southern Station.   Everyone called it the Union Station.  In my experience every C&O passenger train stopped twice in Charlottesville, once at the C&O station, where baggage and mail were loaded and unloaded, and switching of cars and combining of trains and engine changes were done, and also at the Southern or Union Station, which had a long platform for the C&O track, and the agent would sell C&O as well as Southern tickets..  

C&O amd Southern tickets were interchangeable between Charlottesville and Washington and points north.

 One final point.   I believe the Senator and Congressional equipment was the first equipment sold by Budd for complete streamlined trains that were sold without full-width diaphragms, and by 1952 railroads were already substituting normal diaphragms for the full width types.   Should this subject deserve a special thread?  Possibly skirting and full-width diaphragms together?

 Hope some one comes up with the right answer to the question.   Hint:  A description could be a real estate or hotel advertisement!

[passengerfan]

daveklepper

One final point.   I believe the Senator and Congressional equipment was the first equipment sold by Budd for complete streamlined trains that were sold without full-width diaphragms, and by 1952 railroads were already substituting normal diaphragms for the full width types.   Should this subject deserve a special thread?  Possibly skirting and full-width diaphragms together?

 

Actually the California Zephyr was built without full width diaphragms. The CB&Q was the only RR that purchased all of there Budd cars with full skirting through the Denver Zephyrs of 1956. The one exception was the Slumbercoaches.

Al - in - Stockton

[daveklepper]

So the Congressionals were the first streamlined Budd trains ordered without full-width diaphragms that was operated by only one railroad?

Further hint on the first articulated electric railway cars:   Streetcars put into operation before most of the streetcar lines were constructed in the USA and definitely before nearly all the interurban lines were constructed.   And they did not have two bodies on three trucks.   They were pretty well gone in the USA by the time PCC's arrived in the middle 1930's.   I think all in the USA used trolley poles.   I don't think Chicago or New York had any, and if they did have it was just one or two to try out and not use.   San Francisco did not have any as far as I know.   Again, their description could be a real estate or hotel advertisement, which was also descriptive of one of their major shortcomings especially in the city that used them for the longest time and had the most of them.   I believe there are some still running in Europe and in India.

[passengerfan]

daveklepper

So the Congressionals were the first streamlined Budd trains ordered without full-width diaphragms that was operated by only one railroad?

Sorry what about the SP Sunset Limiteds of 1950, the NYC New England States of 1949, the Wabash Blue Bird of 1950, and.the CB&Q Vista Dome Twin Zephyrs of 1948. The full width diaphragms actually seemed to disappear with WW II. I am trying to think of any postwar consists off the top of my head that featured full width diaphragms and none come to mind immediatly but then as I get older its harder to recall things.

Al - in - Stockton 

[Deggesty]

passengerfan

Sorry what about the SP Sunset Limiteds of 1950, the NYC New England States of 1949, the Wabash Blue Bird of 1950, and.the CB&Q Vista Dome Twin Zephyrs of 1948. The full width diaphragms actually seemed to disappear with WW II. I am trying to think of any postwar consists off the top of my head that featured full width diaphragms and none come to mind immediatly but then as I get older its harder to recall things.

From Zephyr to Amtrak has, on p, 157, a picture of a car that was built in 1949, for the Golden State, and a picture of a car that was built in 1950, for the Sunset Limited--and both cars have wide diaphragms. Page 162 has a picture of another car buuilt for the Sunset Limited--and it has wide diaphragms. On the same page is shown a sleeper for the Cascade, built in 1950, with wide diaphragms. The cars built for the Bluebird in 1949-50 had wide diaphragms (p.181),

These are all that I can find at the moment; there may be more in some books I have in the living room.

[daveklepper]

You may be right about the New England States, since the 1948 Century re-equip did not have full-width diaphragms.   My error.

Still looking for an answer for the first articulated streetcars.   Not two bodies with three trucks!   But there is a hint there.

What would you do if you were a streetcar manager and had a fleet of single truck short cars, about the size of a one-man Birney Safety car, but requiring two man crews, and now purchased large double-truck cars that handled twice the passenger load with the same two-amn crews.   What about all that investment in hundreds of single-truck cars, none older than ten years?

[narig01]

1st guess, Peter Witt cars?

In my copy of the Interurban Era by William Middleton the earliest articulated electric railcar I can find specifically is the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis articulated cars were built in 1927 by J.G.Brill, for use on the Baltimore to Washington, D.C. line.  (I'm reasonably sure this is not what your looking for, but I thought I'd mention them)

       I also see a reference to a 1904  car that was manufactured by John Stephenson of Elizabeth, NJ, that was exhibited at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in St Louis. This is described as "a 12 wheeled interurban car". I did not see any reference as to whether this was an articulated car or some other combination(ie 2 3-axle trucks) 

 

       One other description I saw somewhere was were 3 four wheeled cars were spliced together to create a single car. The middle section being suspended between the 1st & 3rd cars. I do not recall the dates.

    Last. About the Key System Bridge units, I would not describe Bridge Units as "light rail", not with 8" or 10" concrete floors. (forget how thick they were) .

      I apoligies for the rambling here as is it 430am and it has been a long day (Chattanooga, Tn to Hope, Ar)

Thx IGN

[al-in-chgo]

Hi, Chicago Al again.  Sorry to intrude but I found a site that is quite specific about the date of implementaiton of the Budd stainless-steel coaches, the originals brought in during 1952.  Daveklepper, you remain quite right on all the answers.  This may just add a little detail: 

 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1952%20Dec%2004.pdf 

...note that it is a .pdf document.

 

Below I have highlighted the part I found most interesting.  This is on the third page of the document whose link is above; the document itself is called simply "PRR Chronology / 1952 / December 2004 Edition." 

 

........Mar. 15, 1952 Last run of Richmond-Terre Haute "ghost train" No. 413-426. (A-sheet)

Mar. 17, 1952 The Congressional (18 cars each) and The Senator (14 cars each) reequipped

with 64 lightweight streamlined cars from the Budd Company;

Morning/Midday Congressionals introduced and old Congressional

becomes Afternoon Congressional.(check tt.) Ten GG1s repainted from

Brunswick Green to Tuscan Red with gold stripes to match cars;

Afternoon Congressional christened at Penn Station by wife of Mayor

V.R. Impellitteri and at Washington by Mrs. Alben W. Barkley; Senator

christened at Washington by wife of New Hampshire Styles Bridges and

at Boston by wife of House Majority Leader John McCormack; consist

of Congressional is 8 coaches, tavern-lounge, twin-unit diner, room car,and 6 parlors including parlor-observation; consist of Senator is 8

coaches, tavern-lounge, diner, and 4 parlors including parlorobservation;

new equipment causes ridership to increase 9%. (MB, NYT,

Wayner, tt.)

Mar. 18, 1952 New Haven installs ticket vending machines in Grand Central Terminal.

(NYT).........

 

Enjoy!  Allen  S.

PS Dave:  Don't feel bad about not listing the stainless-steel siding as the innovation "obvious" to the general traveling public.  I almost said "apparent" or "visible" but settled for the more ambiguous adjective, which meant the answer I was looking for was more "hiding in plain sight" than self-evident.  I really thought you deserved the win and I still do.  -  al

 

 

[daveklepper]

Check on "somewhere I saw a description."   That is the answer.   In 1904 several streetcar copmpanies tried just that, the Brooklyn-NY system, Boston, and few others.   Two single-truck cars had one platform removed, an articulation joint replace it, and a third single-truck body was shortened and suspended as the connecting link between them.   The articulation joint often leaked in rainy weather, so the moniker "two rooms and a bath" was frequently applied to these cars.  Boston Elevated ended up converting nearly all their single-truck closed cars to this form,retaining trucks and motors and beefing up the springing and controlers,but very little material brand new.  Brooklyn had a few experimentals and disgarded the idea quickly,bought 200 Birney cars for single-man operation, and then sold these when buying the largest fleet of double end Peter Witts anywhere, about 535 such cars plus 200 single-end in 1930.    The two-rooms-and-abath cars were bad riding cars, the articulation arrangement seeming to amplify every joint instead of damping it as in convenitonal articulation.   Two trucks and three bodies instead of three trucks and two bodies.

The Washington Baltimore and Annapolis interurbans were contemporary with the BMT's D-Types which have (two or three are still operable for museum and fan-trip purposes) three bodies and four trucks.   I believe Stillwell was still involved with both the WB&A and BMT designs.  Both were successful designs.

The Boston Elevated's 2rm&bth cars were all retired when the lightweight Type 5's arrived in the 1020's.  They were never allowed on Subway routes, which were handled by the big doiuble-truck heavy Type 2,3,and 4cars, the latter hauling center-entrance trailers after about 1916, and then the Center Entrance mu cars replaced  the wood 2, and 3types.   The 4 was basically steel and continued until about 1955.   

Some companies spliced two single-truck bodies together to make a double-truck car.   But this involved a new underframe, new trucks, and new motors.   Not a great saving over a new car!

Your question,  

[wanswheel]

Al, that's a neat website and in case you didn't see it, here's a link to the index page of  A General Chronology of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company by Christopher T. Baer. 

http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR_hagley_intro.htm

[daveklepper]

I remembered that I had ridden a 2rm&Bth car on my first (age 28) visit to Europe in 1960.   It was probably in Vienna, although I also rode trams in Amsterdam, Frankfort, Strasburg, Milan, and Rome.  Then in the 1980's I believe I rode one as a museum car in Brussels on an ERA fantrip there.   Very rough riding.   I think I read that Calcutta recently took  some of their old 4-wheels and made the into three-body two-truck articulateds. 

Waiting for the next question.

[daveklepper]

Narig, it's your question, because you were correct when you wrote that you had read somewhere about using three car bodies to make one car.

I have to comment regarding the lack of full-width diaphragms for the streamlines New England States.  Yes, the feature car, the solarium observation round end, a pair, was purchased for this train, and possibly the twin-unit diners, but all other equpment was part of a general equipment pool that was shared with the Empire State Express and several other trains.   For a while the NYC did try to keep stainless equipment separate from straight-side two-tone grey equipment, but that went out the window with Pearlman.

[narig01]

 

Fm Narig.I regret my being unable to reply with a new question.  With regrets my laptop that I use on the road crashed last week and I've been unable to reply. My apologies for this. I do have the ability to watch replies on my cell ph.

     I've asked Dave Kepler to continue here.   

 

Thx IGN   

[daveklepper]

 What the very last rod (not geared) narrow gauge steam locomotives built in the USA for service on a USA railroad?

[daveklepper]

Hint, ended up used bv two railroads in the USA, then may have been sold to a foreign country.

[cn854]

The GN did not assigned a switcher at Winnipeg, GN's and NP's Midland Railway of Manitoba had a GMDL SW900 for yard and interchange traffic and a torpedo tubed GP9 for passenger protection power for the GN and NP psgr trains, stationed in Winnipeg.

 Mark Perry

[daveklepper]

Narrow gauge steam please?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I will say the pair of 2-6-6-2T's built for Uintah RR.  They later went to Sumpter Vally in Oregon, where they acquired tenders and were resold to International Railways of Central America.

[daveklepper]

Those are the locomotives I had in mind, so you get to ask the next question.

[daveklepper]

Still waiting for Paul's question.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

South Shore's dining cars and two of its parlor cars had a characteristic that made them unique among interurban equipment.  What was that characteristic?

[daveklepper]

Vestibules and traps and steps and doors at both ends.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

daveklepper

Vestibules and traps and steps and doors at both ends.

The diners didn't have steps and traps, all of South Shore's coaches did have all of that equipment, I'm thinking of diners and parlors only.

[daveklepper]

Did these cars have motormen's controls to allow them to be used as control trailers?

This was true of some of the North Shore's similar equipment, and obviously steam road parlors and diners did not have this equipment.

Also, stoves were electrically powered and the parlors may have had a small electrically powered stove or hot water heater for warm drinks.  Steam road diners generally had charcoal burning stoves or used heating oil.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

South Shore's diners had no controls.  I'm pretty sure that the parlors didn't, either.

[narig01]

 

This is a shot in the dark, If the were built during prohibition did they have a secret compartment for alcoholic beverages? 

(by the way if I get this right please continue without me, as I'll be out of contact for the next several days. Did finally get another machine tho.

Thx IGN

[daveklepper]

YOu might want to check on the parlors.

OK.   A long shot.   While the IC mu's were married pairs, with power for the trailer bussed only from the companion motor cars, the South Shore trailers, including parlors and diners, were separate units, and 1500V removable jumper cables were available to power trailers from adjacent motor cars.   Indeed, on the South Shore, the practice in winter storms train line the 1500V dc throughout the train, reducing arcing when sleet on the wire was encountered.

But the diners, and possibly some parlors, required more than the usual amount of hotel power, so possibly they were equipped with one or two pantographs?   I think ore motor cars had two, with only on in use usually.