The only errors I have caught so far are:
Jacksonville was a through station for the ACL - East Coast Florida FEC through trains, streamliners and others. with the two-traclk FEC bridtge into Jacksonville directly south of the station across the (Johns?) River. It was a stub station for all other trains, however.
San Diego had no through trains ---except now the San Diego Trolley. All trains in the streamliner era into San Diego teminated there and originated there.
We seem to have one winner so for, but there are still a few locations not mentioned.
I'll add the "Twin Cities 400", the power swapped ends to go from St. Paul to Minneapolis.
narig01Was Richmond(Va) a stub?
After the SAL began using the Broad Street station in Richmond, the SAL trains--Silver Comet, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Sunland, and Palmland all had a backup move, to SAY. As long as SAL used Union Station, the operation through Richmond needed no backup move.
Johnny
I'd say you are the winner, with the most locations and the most specific trains as apposed to all trains of a particular railroad at a particular location. One city still left out is Phily, with a few PRR trains that could be called streamliners (The Steel City, for a time) changing ends either at Broad Street while it lasted and then at 30th Street between New York City and the West. So we await your question.
Meanwhile, on the other thread, still looking for PRR-NYC sleepers.
New question: what was the original route of the Birmingham Special, and what major city did it barely serve, with a stop at a suburban station (bypassing the downtown station)? Bonus question: what song is said to have been inspired by the schedule of this train (after its route was changed)?
Deggesty New question: what was the original route of the Birmingham Special, and what major city did it barely serve, with a stop at a suburban station (bypassing the downtown station)? Bonus question: what song is said to have been inspired by the schedule of this train (after its route was changed)? Johnny
A. (New York) - Wash/Union - Charlottesville - Lynchburg /Kemper St. - Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - (barely) Atlanta for a while - Birmingham. There may also have been a connection to Memphis at one point thru Chattanooga; that's how The Southerner was routed. (In fact, there was no direct, through way to travel on land between Knoxville and Memphis before I-40 was constructed; the unusual looking Knoxville - Chattanooga - Memphis U-shaped route that The Southerner avoided the Cumberlands and followed the river/valley systems as much as possible.)
B. Atlanta, as mentioned above.
C. "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" is the song. Despite the inappropriate lyric about having "ham and eggs in Carolina" the trains from the Northeastern U.S. went to Chattanooga thru Virginia and Tennessee, not NC or SC (sorry, Tex Benecke!).
A. Al, I confess that I do not have a complete history of the routing the Birmingham Special, but the earliest schedule I have (June, 1916) does not show it going through Tennessee. That is an interesting routing, which could have had it turning south at Cleveland or Ooltewah for Atlanta instead of going into Chattanooga. Do you have any schedule that shows this? This (the oldest one I have) schedule does show that it did serve the downtown station of the major city (I did not think to check this one). The next three schedules I have, 9/30/17, [[edit, add] shows the same. The next two,] 4/4/20, & 6/15/31, show only the suburban stop (no backup move needed) as it moves on to/from Birmingham. The September 1936 schedule shows it going through Chattanooga, which remained its route until the end. There was a time when there was a through Washington-Memphis sleeper, as well as a NY-Nashville sleeper.
The Southerner, from its beginning, in 1941, until its end, ran over the Southern all the way from Washington to New Orleans.
B. Correct.
C. Correct. The timing of the activities on board after leaving Penn Station fit the schedule, Two things amused me. One was directly from the song, since I could not imagine the route as being Southern all the way, going by way of Asheville. the other was from the movie, which showed the Tennessee line as being crossed more or less away from a city. As someone who took this train (and the Tennessean and Pelican) into and out of Bristol several times, I knew that the state line is crossed in an urban setting--State Street in Bristol, Va., and Bristol, Tenn.
By the way, when you were growing up in SW Virginia, did you ever see the Birmingham Special (considering its scheduled passing between Radford and Bristol)?
Did not the Tennesean also serve Chattanooga?
Full text of the song:
Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo
Track 29, can you spare me a dime?
Can you afford, to board the Chattanooga Choo Choo
I've got my fare, and just a trifle to spare.
You leave the Pennsylvania Station 'round a quarter of 4.
Read a magazine and you're in Baltimore
Diner in the diner, nothing could be finer,
The to have your grits* and eggs in Carolina/
When you hear the the whistle blowing 8 to the bar,
then you'll know that Tennesse is not very far.
Shovel a little more coal in, gotta keep her rolling,
Whoo Whoo Tennesse, there you are!
There's gonna be, a certain party at the station.
Satin and lace, I used to call her funny face.
She's gonna cry, until I tell her that I'll never roam.
Chattanooga Choo Choo, won't you choo choo me home.
*strictly Kosher, in accordance with Rosh Yeshiva Danny Isaac's wishes.
Also, track 29 has always been an LIRR track.
DeggestyA. Al, I confess that I do not have a complete history of the routing the Birmingham Special, but the earliest schedule I have (June, 1916) does not show it going through Tennessee. That is an interesting routing, which could have had it turning south at Cleveland or Ooltewah for Atlanta instead of going into Chattanooga. Do you have any schedule that shows this? This (the oldest one I have) schedule does show that it did serve the downtown station of the major city (I did not think to check this one). The next three schedules I have, 9/30/17, [[edit, add] shows the same. The next two,] 4/4/20, & 6/15/31, show only the suburban stop (no backup move needed) as it moves on to/from Birmingham. The September 1936 schedule shows it going through Chattanooga, which remained its route until the end. There was a time when there was a through Washington-Memphis sleeper, as well as a NY-Nashville sleeper.
My September 1909 Official Guide shows the Birmingham Special running between Washington and Birmingham exclusively on the Southern. At this time, the only thru train that ran to Chattanooga was the Memphis Special, on its way to Memphis via SR and N&W.
daveklepperDid not the Tennesean also serve Chattanooga?
Yes, the Tennessean served Chattanooga on its way to/from Memphis. Westbound, it came in at midnight, and eastbound, it came in about 3:30 in the morning.
Incidentally, you could eat in either Chattanooga or Alexandria between Washington and Knoxville.
Please pardon my slip from the earlier post. What I had been calling The Southerner should in fact have been called The Tennessean. - al-in-chgo
from earlier post re song "Chattanooga Choo-Choo":
"Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo
I've got my fare, and just a trifle to spare....."
Okay, two small points of information: The version Tex Beneke sang with Glenn Miller's band (and is there any more widely-distributed vocal?) says, "Track 29, oh can you give me a shine". The "boy" so-called is a shoe-shiner. "Track twenty-nine" is poetic license to keep the meter and rhyme with "shine."
Does it make sense that someone with a ticket to Chattanooga is trying to bum a dime (impure rhyme) off someone? Even if he does have only "a trifle to spare" after paying for his ticket.
How many transpositions were going on when that song was written and became popular! We were coming out of the Depression, we had farm boys in the big city and many others so far away from home. It was the age of Romance and Glamour. So Tin Pan Alley had so much room to work in and so many possiblities at once! WWI tried to homogenize the US but WWII comeing on the tailend of the Depression actually did. Living in the U.S. was so much different than it had ever been because of these events. A dime was a big thing! So was riden' the trains.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
In the 1941 Glenn Miller recording, Tex asks, "Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?" Then the Modernaires answer, "Yes, yes. Track twenty-nine!" Then Tex says, "Boy, you can give me a shine."
To listen to the song at Jazz-on-line (or to download and keep the song ), type Chattanooga Choo Choo in the search box...
http://jazz-on-line.com/pageinterrogation.php
Thank you for the correction. My post was from memory, and my next July 4th recital for my fellow Yeshiva students will include the correction. The dime was requested by the boy and given by the serviceman in my version, not the other way around. But I appreciate the correction, and since you were good enough to provide it, possibly you may wish to review another in my memory.
It was a rainy day in the month of September and the clouds were hanging low,
when Old 97 left Washington Station like and arrow shot from a bow.
Now engine 1002 was a fast locomotive, the fastest on the Southern Lines,
but when she came in to Monroe Virigina she was 47 minutes behind.
They gave him his orders at Monroe Station, saying "Pete you're way beind time.
This ain't 78 but it's Old 97, and you gotta bring her in on time."
So he turned right round to his trusty old fireman, saying "Shovel on a little more coal.
And when we hit those wide open spaces, you can watch Old 97 role."
It's along rough road from Lynchburg to Danville, coming down and 8 mile grade;
And it was there that he lost his average, you can tell by the jump that he made.
He was coming down the grade doing 90 miles per hour, when his whistle broke into a scream.
He was found in the wreck with his hand on the throttle. He was scalded to death by the steam.
Now all you women, you should take a warnin' to this little tale of mine.
Never speak harsh words to your dear kind husbands; they may leave you and never return.
As an added bonus, expecially for New Englanders:
She was coming down Mt. Katahden doing 90 miles an hour,
when the chain of her bicycle broke.
She was found in Milanoket with a sprocket in her pocket.
She was tickled to death by a spoke.
Is this too sexist? Should I change it to "He"?
Corrections greatfully accepted. Thanks for all contributions to a happy July 4th in Jerusalem.
Other songs include I've been working on the Railroad and John Henry, and of course Yankee Doodle . I enjoy teaching about Yankee Doodle. It was a song thought up by the British soldiers to make fun about Washington's Army, but the Continental soldiers liked it because it showed they were a citizens' army and NOT just mercenaries, and so it was sung more by Washington's soldiers in the end.
from "Wreck of the old 97":
"Shovel on a little more coal.
And when we hit those wide open spaces, you can watch Old 97 role [roll]."
He was found in the wreck with his hand on the throttle. He was scalded-, a-scalded to death by the steam.
The original words of "The Wreck of the Old 97" were as follows according to the Blue Ridge Institute Museum. The lyrics were later changed somewhat as various versions were sung by different recording artists.
Mark
On one cloudless morning I stood on the mountain,Just watching the smoke from below,It was coming from a tall, slim smokestackWay down on the Southern railroad.It was 97, the fastest trainEver ran the Southern line,All the freight trains and passengers take the side for 97,For she's bound to be at stations on time.They gave him his orders at Monroe, Virginia,Saying, "Stevie, you're way behind time.This is not 38, but it's Old 97,You must put her into Spencer on time."He looked 'round and said to his black greasy fireman,"Just shovel in a little more coal,And when I cross that old White Oak MountainYou can just watch Old 97 roll."It's a mighty rough road from Lynchburg to Danville,And the lie was a three-mile grade,It was on that grade that he lost his air brakes,And you see what a jump that she made.He was going down the grade making 90 miles an hour,When his whistle began to scream,He was found in that wreck with his hand on the throttle,He was scalded to death by the steam.Did she ever pull in? No, she never pulled in,And at 1:45 he was due,For hours and hours has the switchman been waitingFor that fast mail that never pulled through.Did she ever pull in? No, she never pulled in,And that poor boy must be dead.Oh, yonder he lays on the railroad trackWith the cart wheels over his head.97, she was the fastest trainThat the South had ever seen,But she run so fast on that Sunday morningThat the death score was numbered 14.Now, ladies, you must take warning,From this time now and on.Never speak harsh words to your true loving husband.He may leave you and never return.
Here's a bit more info about the train itself (Southern Railway No. 97) and the wreck.
"In 1902, the Southern Railroad signed a contract with the U.S. Government to provide service between Washington and Atlanta with a mail-only express train, designated #97. They optimistically guaranteed on-time delivery, even though the roadbed wasn't in all that good condition. The train tended to run late, so it wasn't unusual that, when rookie engineer Joseph (Steve) Broady took over in Monroe, Virginia, on September 27, 1903, he was already forty-seven minutes in the hole. Going downgrade from Lynchburg, he made up time by "whittling," picking up speed on the straight-aways and braking hard on the turns. His brakes gave out at the bottom of the hill, and he was evidently doing ninety when the train careened around the last turn before the trestle at Danville. A famous photo shows the engine and associated wreckage in the Dan River gorge, about forty feet too far to the right, and about seventy-five feet too low, to make it across. Counting the engineer and the fireman, eight people died, which seems like small potatoes compared with modern wrecks."
1. Can I have some show of hands as to which version I should use? (Other than replacing Pete with Steve and the using "a-scalded...")
2. Al, aren't you supposed to ask the next question?
al-in-chgo Deggesty New question: what was the original route of the Birmingham Special, and what major city did it barely serve, with a stop at a suburban station (bypassing the downtown station)? Bonus question: what song is said to have been inspired by the schedule of this train (after its route was changed)? A. (New York) - Wash/Union - Charlottesville - Lynchburg /Kemper St. - Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - (barely) Atlanta for a while - Birmingham. There may also have been a connection to Memphis at one point thru Chattanooga; that's how The Southerner was routed. (In fact, there was no direct, through way to travel on land between Knoxville and Memphis before I-40 was constructed; the unusual looking Knoxville - Chattanooga - Memphis U-shaped route that The Southerner avoided the Cumberlands and followed the river/valley systems as much as possible.) B. Atlanta, as mentioned above. C. "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" is the song. Despite the inappropriate lyric about having "ham and eggs in Carolina" the trains from the Northeastern U.S. went to Chattanooga thru Virginia and Tennessee, not NC or SC (sorry, Tex Benecke!).
Deggesty New question: what was the original route of the Birmingham Special, and what major city did it barely serve, with a stop at a suburban station (bypassing the downtown station)? Bonus question: what song is said to have been inspired by the schedule of this train (after its route was changed)?
Deggesty al-in-chgo Deggesty New question: what was the original route of the Birmingham Special, and what major city did it barely serve, with a stop at a suburban station (bypassing the downtown station)? Bonus question: what song is said to have been inspired by the schedule of this train (after its route was changed)? A. (New York) - Wash/Union - Charlottesville - Lynchburg /Kemper St. - Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - (barely) Atlanta for a while - Birmingham. There may also have been a connection to Memphis at one point thru Chattanooga; that's how The Southerner was routed. (In fact, there was no direct, through way to travel on land between Knoxville and Memphis before I-40 was constructed; the unusual looking Knoxville - Chattanooga - Memphis U-shaped route that The Southerner avoided the Cumberlands and followed the river/valley systems as much as possible.) B. Atlanta, as mentioned above. C. "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" is the song. Despite the inappropriate lyric about having "ham and eggs in Carolina" the trains from the Northeastern U.S. went to Chattanooga thru Virginia and Tennessee, not NC or SC (sorry, Tex Benecke!). As I remarked in an earlier response, Al - in -Chicago answered the second and third parts correctly, but I take issue with his description of the original route (the primary part of the question) as being through Knoxville. If Al can refer to a schedule that showed this, he is certainly the winner. (emphasis added). Zephyr Overland goes back farther than I can for this train, with his September, 1909, issue of the Guide, and it shows what I have believed to be the original route.
Johnny, I have in my hand the January, 1953 edition of the Official Guide of the Railways. The easiest reference is to go to page 463, Table D (N&W Condensed Through Schedules) . . . Train no. 17 (SB) and train no. 18 (NB) are "The Birmingham Special," and the condensed sked indicates that the train's route is New York - Wash/Union - Lynchburg/Kemper St. (the Southern Crescent still stops at that location) - anyhoo, Lynchburg/Kemper, Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga (connection to Memphis) and then finally Birmingham (connection to New Orleans). There are thru coaches from both NYC "Penna" and Washington. Dining and first-class consists varies a little. Timetable SB shows train departing "Penna" at 11:30 a.m, arr Birmingham 9:30 a.m. the following day. I reckon the scheduled travel time to be 23 hours, since Birmingham was and is on Central Time. If you say the better varnish on SR's mainline thru Chalottesville, VA and Charlotte, NC got to B'ham faster, you'd probably be right.
Of course the B. Special could have been routed via SR in between the mid-fifties and the late sixties, and then reverted to the "Pelican Route," but I doubt it. Speaking of which, the condensed N&W sked for "The Tennessean" is just below at Table F, and "The Pelican" itself is on the next page, 464, as Table G. All of these Condensed Through Schedules clearly show routing via Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville and Chattanooga.
Your knowledge is so vast -- don't be upset at having a gap on this one. Part of the lack of consciousness of this route may have to do with the fact that the train was SR to Lynchburg/Kemper, then entered the N&W (east-west) main line, on to Roanoke and Bristol, where SR took over again SB. In other words, the Lynchburg (actually Forest) to Bristol stretch was a different railway to the one at either end. Of course, we know of many multi-RR "handovers" such as Western trains to San Francisco and so forth, but this is the only instance I know of in which Carrier One starts out, then is hauled or tracked over Carrier Two's line (some were haulage, some more like trackage), then back to Carrier One again. I've taken that line, numerous times, going back to when my mother and I went from Houston to Lynchburg in about 1963, until the B. Special was discontinued entirely. This is before Amtrak and well before the NS merger in the eighties, of course. But because of the discontinuity of carrier and its being a (relatively) minor line compared to N&W or Sou Rwy's main lines, it remains not so well known today.
My recently deceased Cousin Webb had memories of going to the Bristol TN/VA station to see the "big" engines (Class J's) switched for the "little" engines (SR was fully dieselized by then.) That would have been roughly 1953 (SR's full dieselization, possibly earlier) to the last reg. sched. run of the J's on that route in, IIRC, 1958. An interesting historical note is that about 15 miles east of Bristol lies the town of Abingdon, and the Abingdon Branch was the one so well immortalized in photos and photojournalism by O. Winston Link. You'll find that schedule in the N&W's 1953 listings, too.
B.Special's equipment other than coaches got dropped over the years, but the SB sked is almost identical to the "Birmingham Special" I remember from the late Sixties, NB sked is different but itinerary just as I remember. I have no access to the few old SR timetables I've saved (and actually sold a lot of 'em about 25 years ago)....but you can verify by getting the January 1953 O.G.R. Amazing how comprehensive America's rail passenger network was back then!
You'll recall this is the same month that Dwight Eisenhower was inaugurated as President, and a few days before that was the terrifying but injury-free crash of a SB PRR train, GG-1 on point, that plowed into a waiting room at speed, Wash/Union. TRAINS, three or four months ago IIRC, ran a photo of private cars huddled near the station just before Ike's inaugural....cars near the station but in a yard invisible to the general traveling public.
Somewhat apropos of GG-1's and the Pennsy and such, I have the next question ready if you declare me winner of this one. PM me if you have further questions, please.
Best, Allen Smalling (al-in-chgo)
Al, I do not know just what year the Southern began operating a train that it called the Birmingham Special, but I did know that by 1916 (and Zephyr Overland has shown that it was in operation by 1909), a train called by this name, using numbers 29 and 30, was operated by way of Atlanta until some time between 6/15/31 and 9/36. At some time between those last two dates, its route was changed to use the N&W between Forest and Bristol–and it remained on this route until its end–and the numbers were changed to 17 and 18. As an aside, trains 29 and 30 were still operated, on a later schedule sb and earlier schedule nb between Washington and Atlanta. In time, this schedule was given the name Peach Queen.
Go ahead and ask the next question.
Incidentally, ZO is right that the Memphis Special was the only through train Sou-N&W-Sou in 1909. There were through cars NY-NO and Wash-NO, but no through train until after the Queen and Crescent was absorbed into the Southern Railway System (after 2/16).
Also incidentally, if you rode the Sou-N&W-Sou route, you needed only two coupons in your ticket–one for each road. In the spring of 1968, I had a ticket that read, in part, Washington to Tuscaloosa. In Washington, I asked to exchange that coupon for one that would take me through Bristol, and I was given a coupon that read N&W between Lynchburg and Bristol–so my DC-Tuscaloosa coupon was used DC to Lynchburg and Bristol to Tuscaloosa.
As to N&W steam on the Southern trains, 12/31/57 was the last day, and I rode the Tennessean from Chattanooga to Bristol two days later–and, instead of PA’s on the point, we had E8's, which were running through to Washington from Memphis.
(1) Name or describe the innovation using a term or two that the general traveling public would have understood in the early Fifties. Avoid using technical terminology in a way that only we railfans are likely to know. Nonetheless be as precise as you can and if you can, also use a different term to describe a more technical aspect of this innovation.
(2) Give us the names of at least three of the six PRR passenger trains that were scheduled to operate with the new innovation as of January 1953. (But if you miss one, you lose the whole question – try again later!)
There were one or more of what I’ve called the new “convenience” and secondary selling point on each of these trains, but it was not (in 1953 anyway) open to all classes of travelers. (Hint): This convenience was also available on the Metroliner and there are more of them yet on today’s Accela Expresses, and it is still occasionally listed by Amtrak as a feature of Accela travel, especially at the highest class.
Probably the most obvious aspect of the technical innovation that formed the main selling point of print ads (it was a no-brainer in terms of publicity) was in place prior to the USA’s entry into World War Two on at least one celebrated train operated by a prominent Western US RR. But in a less visible way this innovation also had a technical advancement or two that was not specifically obvious to the non-expert. So the best answer will deal with at least one obvious feature and at least one not immediately apparent at first glance to the non-expert, possibly not even to you and me. Again, be specific.
Sorry to be such a “Philadelphia lawyer” about this, but the overspecificity is designed so that people will not be distracted or encouraged by mere technicalities or exploiting so-called ambiguities.
Take a shot! You can only further the field and build your own knowledge! - al
1952 (September, October. or November) saw the inauguration of the Budd lightweight equipment for the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, two trains each way, two sets of equpment, and two nearly identacle sets of equipment for the daily Senator, Boston - Washington. Plus one spare set. The convenience was (I propose) the train telephone, inaugurated in this corridor by these trains. I suspect the technical innovation may have been television in the first-class parlor-observation-lounge cars, but in any case, even the closed blunt-end observation cars on these trains were an innovation, since the previous consists of the Senator and the Congressional (possibly the morning version was inaugurated with this equipment) didn't have observation cars, the open platform version having been discontinued at the start of WWII. If television was provided, then possibly RCA or Columbia (not CBS, it was called Columbia Broadcasting System) may have helped with the adds. Certainly AT&T could have helped with advertising for phone service. I would imagine that the Broadway, Spirit of St. Louis, General, National Limited, and Red Arrow may have gotten their existing post WW-II First Class equipment equipped shortly afterward.
By the way, all the Southern trains mentioned in the previous question and answer series did call at Charlotteseville, those going to Atlanta and those going to through Bristol via the N&W. The eastern connection with the N&W was at Monroe, where the N&W east west line crossed the mostly north south Southern line.
You answered one important question I had after reading and rereading and rerereading the wonderful 10th Anniversary issue. Yes, the diesels that replaced J's between Monroe and Bristol were SOUTHERN diesels running through and not the usual N&W GP-9's. That is also what I also remembered.
One other innovation in the NY-Washington corredore was the smoking section with parlor-like seats, leather (light tan) covered, facing the center aisle, at the non-vestibule end of each of the one-vestibule Budd coaches, separated by a glass partition from the non-smoking main section. But this innovation had already been introduced by the New Haven's Pullman-built 8600-series relining-seat double-vestibule coaches, which they received in 1948-1949, some of which may occasionally have gone to Washington on the Colonial and after 1952 always did so. These cars were "American Flyers with double-width windows and applied stainless steel fluting."
daveklepperBy the way, all the Southern trains mentioned in the previous question and answer series did call at Charlotteseville, those going to Atlanta and those going to through Bristol via the N&W. The eastern connection with the N&W was at Monroe, where the N&W east west line crossed the mostly north south Southern line.
daveklepper 1952 (September, October. or November) saw the inauguration of the Budd lightweight equipment for the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, two trains each way, two sets of equpment, and two nearly identacle sets of equipment for the daily Senator, Boston - Washington. Plus one spare set. The convenience was (I propose) the train telephone, inaugurated in this corridor by these trains. I suspect the technical innovation may have been television in the first-class parlor-observation-lounge cars, but in any case, even the closed blunt-end observation cars on these trains were an innovation, since the previous consists of the Senator and the Congressional (possibly the morning version was inaugurated with this equipment) didn't have observation cars, the open platform version having been discontinued at the start of WWII. If television was provided, then possibly RCA or Columbia (not CBS, it was called Columbia Broadcasting System) may have helped with the adds. Certainly AT&T could have helped with advertising for phone service. I would imagine that the Broadway, Spirit of St. Louis, General, National Limited, and Red Arrow may have gotten their existing post WW-II First Class equipment equipped shortly afterward. By the way, all the Southern trains mentioned in the previous question and answer series did call at Charlotteseville, those going to Atlanta and those going to through Bristol via the N&W. The eastern connection with the N&W was at Monroe, where the N&W east west line crossed the mostly north south Southern line. You answered one important question I had after reading and rereading and rerereading the wonderful 10th Anniversary issue. Yes, the diesels that replaced J's between Monroe and Bristol were SOUTHERN diesels running through and not the usual N&W GP-9's. That is also what I also remembered. One other innovation in the NY-Washington corredore was the smoking section with parlor-like seats, leather (light tan) covered, facing the center aisle, at the non-vestibule end of each of the one-vestibule Budd coaches, separated by a glass partition from the non-smoking main section. But this innovation had already been introduced by the New Haven's Pullman-built 8600-series relining-seat double-vestibule coaches, which they received in 1948-1949, some of which may occasionally have gone to Washington on the Colonial and after 1952 always did so. These cars were "American Flyers with double-width windows and applied stainless steel fluting."
Daveklepper, you're right on the money about everything! The new 1952 stainless coaches and the first name trains in service (as I said, by January 1953 there were six scheduled runs a day, each way, and while the equipment roster doesn't specifically say that those coaches were stainless, the giveaway is that the O.G.R. schedules for those particular runs list "Train Telephone" as part of the equipment.) The aspect of innovation that would have been immediately apparent to the traveling public (how I strained not to use the word "visually"!) was that the cars were clad in fluted stainless steel; that of course is a contributing factor to the relative light-weightedness compared to the previous slab-and-rivets generations of passenger rolling stock. I don't think the non-experts would have known or cared about any weight-saving modernizations to springs, trucks and wheels. Perhaps regular patrons of the NYC/Penna to Washington stretch might have noticed a different ride quality compared to the older conventional equipment, but I don't know if there was any great difference, either for better or worse. The motors in the advertisements are always portrayed as GG-1's in Tuscan Red with gold pinstripes. Sharp! AFAIK the only RR that went to the trouble of cladding its locomotives to match the fluted rolling stock was Burlington with its Zephyrs.
Calling the new equipment "streamlined" would not necessarily convey the essence of the change, since that term had been used going years way back for such equipment as disparate as the City of Denver, ATSF Chief, Twentieth Century Limited and some Philadelphia-area hi-speed interurban equipment. You were sharp not to use that term, though I suspect much of the traveling public would have called the 1952 Budd equipment "streamlined." As I alluded, though, ATSF's Chief was fluted-and-clad and began running before America's entry into WWII (12-7-41), I think in 1940. Didn't SAL's diesel-hauled, all-stainless Silver Meteor also start running in 1941, pre-December? As you said, NYNH&H had already begun hauling some stainless equipment. I'm guessing that the new parlor cars on the through route Washington DC - Phila - New York/Penn - (Hell's Gate Bridge) - New Haven - Providence - Boston, while operated by Pullman, belonged either to NH or PRR and were sign-boarded as such. (Was there a set proportion of ownership of the parlor cars, favoring PRR because it had more day trains with parlors running south of NY/Penna than the New Haven did up to Boston?)
The telephone was indeed the secondary selling point I mentioned. On the new Budd equipment the first ones were avaialble to first-class passengers only. I believe that the first ones were to be found in the rear-end observation cars, which were, at least at first, blunt-ended with red Mars lights on top; IOW very similar in appearance to the rear ends of the Chief and the Silver Meteor. They were not diaphragmed as traditional coaches were, nor was there any obs. platform or even a little lip of one. But I think the next generation of Budd equipment (L-D anyway), featured more sharply-tapered rear-end obs. cars, say, the new trains on the multi-line Chgo - San Francisco service (1954) or on CP's Canadian (1955). Oh, how I wish I could go back in time and ride any of those trains . . . especially the Morning Congressional up to Penn Station and the Afternoon Congressional back. I would be plotzing the whole eight-hour travel time, I'm sure, and probably stuffing myself with hot dogs and Orange Julius while in the Big Apple!
You also pointed out the new use of glass dividers within the DC-NYC coaches to separate smoking from non (an archaic concern today, surely, but crucial then). Perhaps some of you would know whether any enhanced structural stability in the new cars permitted the non-weight-bearing glass partitions to be used as opposed to the more traditional steel bulkheads? I myself don't know.
The rear-end observation car did have ambient radio (that's not a huge innovation, I believe AM radio was piped into the pre-WWII 20th Century Limited obs. car), but it does seem to be a convenience or amenity for the first-class travelers. I'm guessing that the parlor-car patrons in the mid-train cars probably didn't want piped-in radio, since many of them worked enroute. The rear-end obs car cultivated more of a bar-lounge ambiance, of course. The Metroliner kept up the tradition of parlor cars (one swivel seat + aisle + one swivel seat; those were the days) and in-train telephones (push-button by then), but of course as MU's there were no closed-end obs. cars nor even a separate cab, i.e. locomotive. The Accela trainsets have power outlets at each first-class group of seats and I believe it has numerous telephones, too, but why people would want to use them and not their own cell phones escapes me.
I do not recall AT&T specifically mentioned in the ad copy re train telephones, but -- wait for it -- it was Budd whose logo ran first in one (full-page) ad I've seen in some periodicals, PRR second; yet in others it was PRR first and Budd second. (IOW both ads used both logos.) The ad copy itself was lavish in its praise of both companies, of course. This type of agreement is often called co-oping, at least in situations where the "alternate sponsor" pays a fraction of the cost of the ad.
I do not know if this vintage of Budd stainless-clad cars were the beneficiary of a novel Budd welding technique called shot-welding, which may or may not be fairly described as a radically new technique sealing up horizontal weld-lines that could lead to leakage, and (possibly) eliminating the need of some rivets or fasteners. I do know if was Budd welders who used this technique but I don't think the company ever patented the method; therefore it may not have been a radical new breach with tradition as much as an expert technique the experienced Budd staff performed extra-well. The later generation of fluted cars employed shot-welding as did, IIRC, the Metroliner and the first two orders of PATCO cars. (I've passed on most of the little info I know about shot-welding and it came from a really nice history of PATCO that dates from the Eighties.)
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We seem to be nearing unanmity over what-RR-served-what-stations-with-what-varnish but I'll try to sum up. I don't mean to be condescending, but most of this info will be known to most of us most of the time, but not in whole or always. It's just a matter of putting stuff together and allowing for the confusing welter of historical practices, pre- and post-merger roads, competing or coordinating routes, and allowing (perhaps) for semantic and routing disjunctions in the Amtrak-and-megasystem era.
My knowledge is partly oral (family, with vivid memories from the late 1920s on), partly research (see especially Main Lines and The Men Who Loved Trains) and partly experiential (my own traveling going back to the early sixties, concentrated in the mid and late sixties but continuing into the Amtrak era in the mid seventies). Plus, as you've probably figured out, I own a copy of the January, 1953 Official Guide of the Railways. But I don't pretend to know anything about named trains or haulage pre-World War One.
The Southern Railway main line ran from Atlanta thru Charlotte, NC, Greensboro, Danville, VA, Lynchburg, Charlottesville and Alexandria across the Potomac to DC/Union (lower or "diesel" concourse). (The route was probably under multiple ownership or control from Alexandria over the River to Union Station, but guys, don't anyone be a Jesuit and make issue of that.) Such trains as The Southerner and the Crescent in its various manifestations (the "Southern Crescent" in the mid-seventies after W. Graham Claytor's overhaul, at other times "The Crescent Limited" or just "The Crescent"), used this line. I do realize that "Crescent' is an allusion to New Orleans so if you want to consider that "The Crescent Route," go ahead. I think, however, that the RR companies offering routage south of Atlanta on to N.O. were operated by affiliates of Southern, not Southern per se. (And IIRC from the book Main Lines this welter of little A&WP type of company were not folded into the whole until the Sou/N&W merger that formed NS in the eighties.)
This is to be distinguished from a less popular but still very viable route that lasted in full until ca. 1970: The route of "The Pelican," whose itinerary was New Orleans - Birmingham - Chattanooga - Knoxville - Bristol TN/VA - Roanoke - Lynchburg (Kemper Street Station) - Charlottesville - Alexandria - DC, and the name trains usually had through cars to NYC/Penna. The companies that ran this route: either the Sou Rwy or one of those funny little affiliates from N.O. up to Birmingham. Definitely the Southern from at least Chattanooga, TN up to Bristol, TN/VA. Then the N&W from Bristol, VA/TN (switching the order of the two states was deliberate) - Marion - Radford - Roanoke....the general principle that The Pelican, Birmingham Special and Tennessen joined the Southern main in or near Lynchburg holds. Not Monroe (more on that later).
But understanding all the interplay of companies, routes and networks is much more interesting and complex than that. If you'd taken, say, The Pelican northbound from Chattanooga on up, there probably was (in the Fifties and Sixties) an engine switch right on the border at the Bristol TN/VA station. The N&W owned the track from the Virginia border (State Street) on up and the Southern from that same border (with Tennessee) on down. My experience is post-dieselization on the part of both companies The Birmingham Special used Sou Rwy brown and white A+B engines of "carbody" style (EMD, for sure, whether class E or F I don't remember)....but since those were run-throughs with Southern motive power, equipment and onboard staff (I don't know about the cab crew), I gather that was what today would be called "trackage." Going north for example, The Pelican, on the other hand, switched engines at Bristol, for instance northbound a Southern engine or engines (EMD for sure) was detached and Norfolk & Western motive power attached (J class to sometime in 1957 and diesel, some kind of Jeep (probably a GP-9) on up. I guess that's more like "haulage" unless I am getting the two terms switched. It is worth recalling that the first major executive act of new N&W president Stuart Saunders, in 1955, was to start negotiating with EMD to dieselize the entire fleet, and he didn't buy carbodies - just Jeeps. (Of course, the N&W later acquired some of the older "carbody" design when it acquired roads like the Wabash in the Sixties. And today, under the combined NS, I'm pretty sure that today, there are Tuscan Red (old-order N&W)-liveried carbody-era engines that once belonged to Southern or some N&W-acquired motive power; they haul things like investor's excursions.) But I for one never saw a diesel-electric engine with a "nose" hauling any N&W freight on the Bristol - Roanoke stretch, and the only carbodies belonged to the Sou Rwy run-thrus such as the Birmingham Special.
Okay, heading north on the Pelican Route from Bristol thru Abingdon, Marion, Wytheville and Radford, that route joins the Norfolk & Western E-B main line several miles east of Christiansburg, VA, and parallels old federal Route 11 on the way to Salem. That is the most obviously mountainous part of the run the passenger saw, there was even a tunnel enroute, but even so it was more of a ridge-runner type of line above a nice valley through which Route 11 ran four-laned, even well into the Sixties. You're still on N&W track, of course, but now trains like The Pelican shared the line with N&W's mainline Cincinnati - Norfolk runs like The Potohontas and The Powhatan Arrow. (I note in passing that the last piece of Interstate 81 to be constructed between Bristol and Roanoke ca. 1967 was the piece that had to blast its way up the mountains between Salem and near Christiansburg, a whole new traffic route.) The trains left the mountainous territory shortly before Salem and then proceeded on to downtown Roanoke, a city contiguous to Salem. In the heyday of rail transport, the Roanoke N&W station was a big-deal; here is where you'd change trains if you were going, say, from Bristol to Appomattox or Nofolk, from the NB Birmingham Special to the EB Powhatan. That old N&W station was very capacious, multi-track, with bridges overhead, almost like a British train station. (The N&W also owned the Hotel Roanoke just adjacent.) You'll shortly see why Lynchburg is a poor transfer city.
N&W territory continued out of Roanoke, passing over the highest point on the system's main lines (I have been told) just east of the village of Blue Ridge, about twenty miles outside of Roanoke on the way to Bedford. TRAINS -- or perhaps it was CLASSIC TRAINS -- had a nice short piece a couple of years ago about how the coal trains leaving Vinton (N&W shops just east of Roanoke) had to have extra power to make it over the hump that crested the Blue Ridge. Otherwise, it's a pretty unremarkable hump. Practically all the property along the four-laned federal highway (Rte. 460, which plays "tag" with the N&W main most of the way to Bedford) is in private hands, the exception being a little wooded patch that crosses under the Blue Ridge Parkway at one of its LOWEST points. Shortly after you will have crossed over the mountains and you will son start seeing the orange soil typical of Piedmont Virginia.
Now it gets interesting again. Up until the mid-1960s, the N&W passenger station (and yards) were inside the city of Lynchburg but several miles south of downtown. It was actually closer to the Southern's Kemper Street Station but separated from it by one of Lynchburg's famous seven hills. In the Sixties N&W pulled out of that location, which had been handy serving industry when Lynchburg was still a highly industrialized city, but it actually pulled the E-B mainline a little too far to the north to be really efficient. So the N&W moved instead to a new little box of a passenger station, and also relocated its yards, to a point that then was on the edge of Lynchburg, right below the big electric works so typical of the edge of many cities. (Present-day Lynchburgers will tell you that the N&W yards are "right behind the [River Ridge] Mall," which was built in the Seventies.) Since Amtrak took over, the only passenger service on the old N&W E-B mainline was the abortive "Mountaineer," better known as the "Harley Staggers Special" for the politician who got the run earmarked into Amtrak's budget. But you can see why Lynchburg was never a good place to change lines, and why the N&W line never crossed Southern at Munroe, which is north of the James. It helps to understand the geography of Tidewater Virginia: the James enters Chesapeake Bay and Norfolk is south of the bay. N&W's old E-B mainline always ran south of the James, going EB Lynchburg - Appamattox - Petersburg - Norfolk. So Dave, I have to call you on this one: N&W locomotives made it to Monroe, but the N&W line was to the south, south of the James in Lynchburg.
Once in the Sixties when Mom and I took the train from Glade Spring (30 miles east of Bristol) up to Lynchburg, we came to a halt at Forest, which was then pretty much a two-gas-pump hamlet several miles to the west of Lynchburg (now it's basically south suburban Lynchburg). Mom remarked that for the many years she'd been taking that route, there was always a stop of a few minutes right at Forest before the train started to move again. We were awaiting clearance onto the NB Southern's main line, you see. This is why trains like The Pelican and the Tennesseean, as well as trains like the Crescent, called at Southern's Kemper Street station. You are now on the route that will take you on up to D.C. with connections to NYC.
It gets problematic again once we factor in the Chesapeake & Ohio. Lynchburg was a stop on the C&O's James River Line, running along the James in a roughly E-W orientation from Richmond west to Lynchburg, Big Island and eventually (I think) joining the C&O main at or near White Sulphur Springs. The last sked passenger service on that line was in 1958 and it, too, required changing stations to get to the other companies' trains. (The C&O station was right downtown; in fact, on the flats right next to the James River.) When an industry served by the line closed in the early eighties, the C&O (or Chessie System) thought long and hard about closing that line. They are probably glad they didn't (more below).
We head north on the Southern for about 70 miles north of Lynchburg and right in Charlottesville, about three blocks east of the University of Virginia hospital, we encounter another C&O line: the much better known C&O main line, the route of the old George Washington (and today the thrice-weekly Cardinal). "Back in the day" that C&O line crossed the Southern main just behind (and I mean just behind) the Southern's station. But pre-Amtrak the C&O passenger trains (which way back when included name trains like the F.F.V. and the Cavalier) continued on their main line about another mile east into Charlottesville's business district and their own depot. Well into the Sixties, and perhaps to the bitter end, this is where the EB (or should I also say NB) George Washington was split in two -- one section heading east toward Richmond and its terminus at Newport News (the "Chesapeake" in C&O and you'll note that the city lies north of Chesapeake Bay); the other turning north, via Orange Virginia and on up to D.C.
Can it get more convoluted? Yes, it can! North of Charlottesville, after heading through Louisa and Orange (Louisa being in the heyday a flag kind of stop and Orange a regular stop), the line meandered a little to the left (west) and joined the Southern Main a few miles north of Orange, so that the George Washington and other D.C.-bound trains shared most of the Charlottesville - DC stretch with Southern's trains like The Crescent and The Pelican. (I distinctly remember on my NYC-bound trip in 1969, up around Culpeper, the blue-and-yellow G.W. whizzing by in the other direction. I'm pretty sure that this line belonged to the Southern in whole or majority; it certainly used Sou Rwy-type signalling. A year or so after Amtrak took over, they made the very smart move of closing the C&O depot in downtown C'ville and halting the train right after it crossed over the Southern main just behind the Southern depot. You could change lines and trains by walking about an extra eighty feet.
For those of you following freight, it is ironically the case today that C&O's heir CSX prefers the James River Valley thru Lynchburg line to haul coal because it does not have to deal with the energy-wasting altitude of the old C&O main line, which (with the help of one tunnel) has to cross the Blue Ridge mountains heading west from Charlottesville to Waynesboro and Stanton. Also, the C&O main in Charlottesvile itself has for quite some time been a Darwinian accident waiting to happen. At one of the very few places in C'ville where the (single-line) track is at ground level, not embanked, on a bridge or entrenched, the track EB comes around a tight corner and parallels for about a block at grade Elliewood Avenue, a popular campus shopping street about two blocks from U.Va.'s main gates. When I was a student at U.Va. in the seventies, there was very little on-street parking for Elliewood and most people settled for the parking lot on the other side of the tracks -- more by accident than by design, I guess. Given that combination of factors, I'm surprised students and other day-shoppers are not routinely killed going to and from Elliwood Avenue by CSX freights and the thrice-weekly Amtrak Cardinal.
To elaborate a bit about Monroe (indeed, pronounced MUN-roe), it was (still is, post-merger??) a division stop several miles north of the James River on the old Southern main. If N&W and Sou Rwy engines were switched there, it certainly makes sense because even during the heyday the N&W and Sou Rwy yards were not contiguous without backing or wyeing out into the other's main line. Kemper Street station was (and is) in a trench and it just had room for thru freights to squeeze through and passenger trains to stop, Lynchburg being the self-described "City of Seven Hills [like Rome]." In fact, if you get to take the Crescent from points south (Atlanta, Charlotte), beyond Lynchburg (and points NB), try to do so during after dawn in the summer because the views are spectacular, owing to a combination of Lynchburg's hilliness and the bluffs over the James River. Northbound, you come into Lynchburg from Danville more or less at ground level. Then the train runs entrenched into Kemper Street Station. Almost immediately afterward, though, the train heads over a very steep trestle above a rural-looking two-lane artery called "Hollins Mill Road." And every quickly after THAT, the train plunges into a tunnel that runs almost directly beneath Garland Rhodes Elementary School on Rivermont Avenue in Lynchburg. (I know this because my mother, three sibs and their parents moved to Rivermont Ave. in the late 1920's, and Mom had distinct memories of the trains rumbling beneath the school while a pupil there.) Right after the tunnel, the train goes over an even taller trestle across the James River. Look closely and you can see the ex-C&O (CSX) James River route far, far below running on the Lynchburg bank of the James River. The next stop is MUN-roe. Or at least it was the last time I took that route in about 1977. So yes, the N&W / SOU HEP switch took place at Monroe. It basically had to. Bristol was simplicity itself by comparison.
I am going to avoid further updating because it is outside the historical scope of CLASSIC TRAINS (up to 1960). What information I included from the Sixties and Seventies was there to preserve continuity of information.
Was this worth the reading? - al
Very good, Al. If I may, I will clarify some points (not to make an issue of any point).
The Southern gained entry to Alexandria, Va., at AF Tower, 0.9 miles below the Alexandria station, and ran over the RF&P to a junction with the Baltimore & Potomac at, I think, the Potomac, and then went into Washington on that PRR subsidiary.
As to the junction of the C&O and Sou at Orange, I have several Washington Division timetables which show C&O train times at Orange, and not a few miles above Orange; also the TT shows that the junction is at Orange.
As to the C&O’s track between Orange and Gordonsville, this originally was Orange & Alexandria track, which was built to enable the O&A to get into Charlottesville over the Virginia Central (later C&O). In time, after the O&A had laid its own track into Charlottesville, this section of track was conveyed to the C&O in some manner.
I think that most of us know that the old "Crescent Route" went through Montgomery via the "West Point Route" (Atlanta and West Point and Western Railway of Alabama) from Atlanta and then on to New Orleans via the L&N.
The Southern Railway’s main line (a conglomeration of several railroads, one of which was, and still is, leased from the State of North Carolina, ran from Washington (actually AF) to Birmingham, via Atlanta. The line from Chattanooga to Meridian was the Alabama Great Southern Railroad, and the New Orleans & Northeastern Railroad carried the Southern Railroad System’s trains into New Orleans.
As to the engine change in Bristol, the station is in Virginia, and all trains stopped clear of State Street. The N&W engines were, of course, some distance north of the station–and I never minded the walk up to take in the beauty of a J. The Southern engines waited south of State Street; and I never went down to look at them when I did have occasion to be in town when a southbound train was due (I saw the nb Pelican more often than any other train).
Effective 1/1/58, the Southern began running its E8's through from Washington to Memphis, Birmingham, and New Orleans. I never inquired, but I would think that N&W crews operated the engines between Bristol and Monroe.
By the way, check Lynchburg, Va.., in the station index of your 1953 guide to see what roads used what stations then.
Thanks for the details of the Sou/N&W/Sou routing, it was definitely worth reading.
Glad to have the add'l info, Johnny! I still am not sure, though, whether the C&O main hit the Southern main in Orange or more towards Gordonsville. C&O passenger trains, some of them at least, stopped at Orange, that's for sure. But it seems to me on my trips that we joined the much smoother mainline Sou Rwy a little bit to the northwest of Orange's passenger station, maybe on the north side of town or maybe more towards Gordonsville. I am sure that Orange (post WWII) was never possible as a passenger transfer point between Southern and C&O trains because (looking south) the C&O had already diverged and the Sou didn't go through Orange, or not through enough to make a difference.
As a small boy, my recently deceased cousin Webb used to love to go down to the station in Bristol (which as you said lies entirely in Bristol, VA -- State Street crossed the tracks just south of there, and State Street was and is the dividing line between Bristol VA and Bristol TN -- then as now right in the middle of the street! He went there to see the "little" Southern diesels taken off and the "big" N&W J's put on, or vice versa. Most likely that was the NB Pelican. I wasn't there as Webb was to witness the switch in motive power. But I can tell you that the Pelican definitely used N&W HEP over N&W's part of the route from 1965 until the end of service, around 1970, predating Amtrak's takeover. The Birmingham Special, until it was reduced to a Virginia-only stub immediately pre-Amtrak, used run-through Southern equipment. (The Tennessean was still running through Emory after we first moved there but it came thru in the wee small and I don't remember it.) The Bristol switching maneuver sounds exactly as you described it. Piece of cake compared to Monroe!
I should also note that daveklepper has the right to pose the next question. I notice that his correct responses to my question were filed very early in the morning CST time, so let's give him a while to respond. - a.s.
You're welcome, Al, and all others who are interested in this section of our rail system.
For the benefit of anyone who is interested, here is a little more detail between AF Tower and Washington station.
Southern began its milepost numbering in Washington, even though it connected with the RF&P at AF, which is mp 9.1 on Sou, and 104.3 on RF&P. RF&P ended at mp 110.0, RO Tower, which was South End, mp 138.1, on PRR. Passenger trains left this line at the Virginia Avenue interlocking, mp135.7/136.4, and went through the tunnels under the east edge of Capitol Hill (some say that the tunnels go beneath the Capitol itself, but they do not) to the station, at mp 136.0.
If your cousin Webb had been able to be at the station about ten in the morning, he could have seen both engine changes--nb Tennessean and sb Pelican.
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