http://pro.corbisimages.com/images/BE043728.jpg?size=67&uid={c357c692-ca47-4bc7-ad01-1e917605b89b}
A fine station but it wasn't there in 1899. World's first elevated railway was in the USA.
If you mean busiest train station in the USA, I'll guess Chicago/Union.
First elevated in the world? I'll guess London (before there was electricity they used steam engines).
a.s.
What was the busiest train station in the world in the 19th and 20th centuries and is still one of Amtrak's busiest stations? And for Dave or anyone even half as knowledeable about city transit, what was the first elevated railway in the world?
Mike
Accurate and thorough answer, so you get to ask the next question. Meanwhile, some trivia. Ask why the four-track eight avenue subway with a streetcar line above wasn't included? (Just its six-track subway locations) The streetcars and the 8th Avenue subway coexisted only from 1932 to 1936, not included in the time spans stated. But I then did remember that on St. Nicholos Avenue, from 161 Street to 168th Street, the Washington Heights 4-track branch of the 8th Avenue subway was underneath the "K" streetcar line, and that stretch could have been included. The K ran through June 28 1947, and I rode it on the last day of operation. Like other Manhattan lines, it was conduit.
In Brooklyn, there were eight tracks on Fulton Street from 1936 to 1940. The "A" line as far as Rcokaway Avenue was opened in 1936, and the BMT Fulton Street elevated was abandoned west of Rockaway Avenue (with free transfer to the subway below) in June 1940, along with the streetcar line under the elevated. The elevated supported the trolley wire below, and the city did not want to erect separate trolley poles, since conversion of the whole system was being considered.
B&O Belt Line 1895. Howard St. tunnel and vicinity. General Electric LE-1
http://www.hosam.com/grd/elec.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/B-and-O_electric.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Mt_Royal_Station_in_1896_%28Baltimore%29.jpg
http://www.mdhs.org/Library/Images/Mellon%20Images/Z24access/z24-00477.jpg
Possibly the Royal Blue train in 1916
http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=92508&t=w
Article
http://www.nrhs.com/spot/howard_street_tunnel/index.html
OK! First the ones I thought were obvious. The Grand Central Depot - Grand Central Terminal and elevvated branch photos should have clued you to: (1) The original subway south of GCT to Chambers Street on Park Avenue South - Fourth Avenue, a four track subway, still today (routes 4, 5, 6), but in the earlier time period the NY&Harlem 4th and Madison Avenue conduit (two power rails in a slot for each track) streetcar line that included America's first street railway, itself in a tunnel with two stations for part of the distance. (2) 42nd Street west of GCT. Conduit streetcar line through December 1946, the original subway, 4-tracks, later became the shuttle, with only three of the four tracks in regular use, condition still today, but the addition of the IRT Queens line (route 7) made up for it, a parallel and lower level separate tunnel. (3) North of GCT, Lexington Avenue, four track subway in use today, opened about 1913, (routes 4, 5, 6), up to 1936 a Green Lines conduit streetcar line.
(4) Haven't you all seen photos of the tunnel portals south of Boston's North Station, with the then four track "Green Line" trolley subway paralleled by the Washington Street third rail heavy rapid transit line? The six tracks were along side what I think was called Canal Street from Haymarket Square noth to Causway Street in front of North Station. Today the Green Line subway has been reduced to two tracks and both it and the Washington Street line share an underground subway station at North Station, with the Green Line turning left to an incline to the older Lechemere Viaduct to cross the Charles River, while the Washington Street line, formerly elevated, now has an underground crossing the then runs parallel to the Boston and Maine RofW to Malden.
(5) Any New York City subway map will show you that the BMT B-division Brighton Line (now routes B and Q), with its two-track tunnel, and the IRT A-Division Brooklyn Line to New Lots and Nostrand-Flatbush (routes 2, 3, 4, 5) both run under Flatbush Avenue from Atlantic Avenue to Grand Army Plaza. This is one of the six track streets still existing today. And above was Brooklyn's heaviest streetcar line, Flatbush Avenue, giving eight tracks during the first two of the three time periods.
(6) Staying with today and only recently, Market Street, San Francisco, with BART wide gauge third rail heavy rail on the lowest level, Muni Metro light rail, five different lines, with trolley wire above but still in a subway, and the F Castro-Market-Embarcadaro heavily used heritage streetcar line on the surface. An additional four wires exist for several trolley-bus lines, mostly looping or operating just a short distance on Market.
(7) In Philly, west of City Hall and almost to the Skuckhill River on Market, the four track subway with streetcars on the outer tracks and the Market Street third rail rapid transit on the inner tracks and streetcars that turned north or south before the river on the surface. First time period only.
(8) Sixth Avenue - Avenue of the Americas, New York. In the first time period, the Hudson and Manhattan Hudson Tubes uptown line from about 10th to 32nd Street in its subway, the Sixth Avenue conduit streetcar line on the surface, and the Sixth Avenue elevated above. Today, the H&M has become PATH, and the four-track Sixth Avnue subway runs partly below (express tracks) and partly along side (local tracks), routes, B, D, and F.
(9, 10) Broadway and Seventh Avenue in New York City. The 4-track BMT subway (N, Q, R, T) uses 7th Ave. north of Times Square and Broadway south, the West Side IRT (1, 2, 3) uses Seventh Avenue south of TS and Broadway north. Both streetcs had counduit streetcar line. Between 65th and 72nd Streets on Broadway, each of the two streetcar tracks had two conduits and four power rails, one "slot" for Third Avenues' Broadway-42nd Street cars and one for the 8th & 9th Ave. Railway's 9th & Amsterdam cars. After the GM bustitutions of 1935-1936, the off-center Broadway line slot remained off center even when the other slot was filled in and paved over.
(11) Guys may question me on this, but anyone riding the Panama Limited or the rear of any IC train into Chicago before the six tracks were reduced to four should have picked up on Michigan Avenue and the IC suburban. Once there were eight since electric freight service also existed. I think the six became four around 1969.
(12) I recall streetcar tracks under the four-track Chicago Northside Elevated north of Merchandise Mart, at least as far as Wilson and possibly Belmont.
(13 and 14) Obscure. For some obscure reason, the normally four track IND 8th Avenue subway has six tracks starting south of 135th Street Local Station, switches just north of the 125th Street four-track express station, and continuing to merge into the seven-track layout of the 145h Street Express Station, which has four tracks on the upper level heading to Washington Heights and three on the lower level leading to the Concourse in The Bronx. Note that north of 110th Street, the 8th Avenue Subway is actually on St. Nicholous Avenue, not 8th Avenue. Then on Broadway and then on Fort Washington Avenue. Along Central Park West the northbound trains are on an upper level and the southbound on a lower, with both local tracks on the west side, away from the park. Between 81st and 72nd there is a middle emergency layup track between the local and express tracks on both levels.
(15 and 16) Smith and Ninth Streets in Brooklyn. The massive concrete 4-track elevated structure used by routes F and G today. The Smith-9th-Coney Island Avenue trolley line was below, the first line anywhere to be equipped with PCC cars.
New Question: What was (is?) the USA's earliest MAIN LINE electrication, and give all possible details including photographs.
henry6 U N C L E ! !
U N C L E ! !
Yeah, really! - a.s.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
One of the other threads has a picture or pictures that should provide you with three answers, leaving seven to go. Now if this is too hard, let me know and I will give you the sixteen answers I know and pose another question.
Some more hints. Photos on a different thread should provide you with three answers.
Photos of a certain subway portal that I feel certain most have seen should provide another answer.
A trains article in the late forties or early fifties should give another answer.
Route maps of cities with electric railway transportation can give all the answers.
One of the six-track sections was actually pictured as such in pictorial maps inside the transit system's rolling stock!
In certain cases, and at certain times, not all the tracks were owned by the same company. In fact, in more than one case, three different companies were involved! In two cases, four different companies!
I know of sixteen cases, surely you should be able to find ten!
The bar isn't as high as you think. I should be easy if you think through. Again, I want specific streets and the bridge (optional), not just the name of the city or neighborhood.
Need some hints? Some of the streets had six tracks but also had eight power rails. For a short distance one had six tracks and twelve power rails. One of the streets: six tracks, only two power rails and eight transit-related overhead wires.
Stop to think where most electric railway tracks were and which streets they were on and are on what the number of tracks were and are and you will get the answer. But ten is the minimum number, at least for the present. Remember, there are three time periods referred to so all ten don't have to be in the same time period.
I'll go for part of the throw: Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Montreal, Toronto, and Indianapolis with only Philadelphia and Chicago remaining.
All guess work only.
daveklepper Don't answer until you have at least ten answers to these questions: In the glorous days of electric traction in the USA, what specific streets in what specific cities had six electric railway tacks for a considerable distance, not just a yard throat or temrinal. Electric railway tracks may include streetcars, interurbans, subways, elevated, commuter lines, and any combination. At least one street had eight tracks. At least one bridge had eight tracks. Name these also. Bonus question: Three streets have six tracks today. Two are included in the above paragraph in general. One is new.
Don't answer until you have at least ten answers to these questions:
In the glorous days of electric traction in the USA, what specific streets in what specific cities had six electric railway tacks for a considerable distance, not just a yard throat or temrinal. Electric railway tracks may include streetcars, interurbans, subways, elevated, commuter lines, and any combination. At least one street had eight tracks. At least one bridge had eight tracks. Name these also.
Bonus question: Three streets have six tracks today. Two are included in the above paragraph in general. One is new.
I think you may have set the bar a little high on this one, Dave. Especially the ten-answer minimum.
daveklepper CP: Canadien/Canadian, Dominion CN Super-Continental Continental
CP: Canadien/Canadian, Dominion
CN Super-Continental Continental
Al - in - Stockton
Name the primary and secondary transcontinental trains when the CP and CN first placed there streamlined cars in service in 1955?
Al - in - Stockton.
Al, that's right, you're up. Here's the Rock....
http://photoswest.org/photos/00005876/00005931.jpg
http://www.rockisl.com/galleries/builder/750-2aright.jpg
Mike the General Pershings Zephyr Silver Charger had a single 1,000 hp 567 so was basically similar to the Rock Island Diesel B units that had a single diesel and a baggage compartment with a cab at the blunt end to forward the Colorado Springs section of the Rocky Mountain Rocket to and from Limon Colorado. It operated behind a traditional E unit from and to Chicago. These two RI units eventually received a second 567 where the baggage compartment had been and were operated in Chicago suburban service. MP also had a similar single engine E unit baggage compartment unit as well originally assigned to the Delta Eagle.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bftUAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA97
Proceedings of the American Electric Railway Association (1922) says Indianapolis & Cincinnati Traction is "notable as one of the earliest successful single-phase systems."
http://books.google.com/books?id=GRQpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA270
How many horses powered General Pershing's horse car?
http://pro.corbisimages.com/images/UKD916INP.jpg?size=67&uid={99448823-40cd-4053-bd9b-63d752255b1a}
http://pro.corbisimages.com/images/UKD915INP.jpg?size=67&uid={4941fc5c-c71e-450a-b0c6-8b03cfeb2d85}
Mike,
Hilton and Due's book claims that the I&C Rushville line was the first, but your answer is good enough to be a winner, so it's your question.
- Erik
P.S. Will have to look into the Schenectady Railway Company - one of the nice things about participating in these Q&A contests is picking up on a lot of interesting RR trivia.
I think it was the
Schenectady Railway Co., Aug. 17, 1904, Schenectady to Ballston, General Electric motor.
Indianapolis & Cincinnati Traction Co. probably second, Indy to Rushville, Westinghouse motor.
New York Times article, The Single-Phase Motor
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C04E0D81230E132A25755C0A96F9C946597D6CF
CSSHEGEWISCH We have a winner!! Erikem, your question.
We have a winner!! Erikem, your question.
As long as we're on the subject of AC powered interurbans...
What was the first interurban to be equipped with single phase AC?
erikem CSSHEGEWISCH The South Shore Line is currently electrified at 1500 VDC. What was the electrification of its predecessor, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend? 6600 Volts, 25 Hz AC. Conversion to 1500 Volts DC was done for compatibility with the IC electrification as well as for better economy of operation.
CSSHEGEWISCH The South Shore Line is currently electrified at 1500 VDC. What was the electrification of its predecessor, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend?
The South Shore Line is currently electrified at 1500 VDC. What was the electrification of its predecessor, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend?
6600 Volts, 25 Hz AC. Conversion to 1500 Volts DC was done for compatibility with the IC electrification as well as for better economy of operation.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe South Shore Line is currently electrified at 1500 VDC. What was the electrification of its predecessor, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend?
al-in-chgo CSSHEGEWISCH The South Shore Line is currently electrified at 1500 VDC. What was the electrification of its predecessor, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend? Would it have been 750 Volts of direct current? I can think of some trolley lines that started out at that voltage so maybe a tradition got started. - a.s.
Would it have been 750 Volts of direct current? I can think of some trolley lines that started out at that voltage so maybe a tradition got started. - a.s.
Definitely not.
daveklepper The Owl was unusual in the use of parlor cars to replace sleepers, although one of the Chicago - St. Louis routes may have done similarly. Other sleeper runs that were closed included the NY - Washington Edison and Indianapolis - Chicago. The Federal order, like the order stopping conversion of streetcars and interurbans to buses, was not withdrawn until sometime after Japan surrended.
The Owl was unusual in the use of parlor cars to replace sleepers, although one of the Chicago - St. Louis routes may have done similarly. Other sleeper runs that were closed included the NY - Washington Edison and Indianapolis - Chicago. The Federal order, like the order stopping conversion of streetcars and interurbans to buses, was not withdrawn until sometime after Japan surrended.
Johnny
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