Texas Zepher passengerfanName the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?Do you mean the whole train was done by their own shops or just some of it? I mean some of the cars used to outfit the Western Star were home built, while most were ACF. The Oberlin Glacier and Harrison Glacier were home shopped and used between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg but that is only two cars. Was the rest of the Winnipeg Limited home shopped? The Twin Cities and Twin Ports flat end observations cars rebuilt from Pullman parlor cars, were used in The Badger & Gopher. The Puget Sounder carried home shopped parlor cars. The Red River and Dakotan were ACF. So I am out of ideas, Is one of them the American / Canadian of 1946? The Alexandran?
passengerfanName the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?
The Oberlin Glacier and Harrison Glacier were home shopped and used between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg but that is only two cars. Was the rest of the Winnipeg Limited home shopped?
The Twin Cities and Twin Ports flat end observations cars rebuilt from Pullman parlor cars, were used in The Badger & Gopher.
The Puget Sounder carried home shopped parlor cars.
The Red River and Dakotan were ACF.
So I am out of ideas, Is one of them the American / Canadian of 1946?
The Alexandran?
The remaining semi streamlined cars in the Badger /Gopher were those semi streamlined Empire Builder cars from 1937 coaches 938-949. Cars from this same group were used in the Cascadians as well. The semi streamlined equipment for the Empire Builder connection between Great Falls and Havre were all from the GN shops in Minnesota. The power was originally a gas electric that resembled a Zephyr somewhat and also contained a baggage section The two cars were a coach and a parlor Dinette Lounge observation and both were downright Butt ugly. In any event the gas electric proved to be underpowered for the two heavyweight semi-streamlined cars and was replaced by one of the GN E7A units when the Empire Builder switched to F units. Railroad historians are still arguing today whether those cars 938-949 series cars from 1937 were semi-streamlined, streamlined or Hybrids, personally I go with semi-streamlined because the rivets showed and they ran on six wheel trucks.
Sorry Dave did not mean to be short with you. I guess it is your question.
Al - in - Stockton
daveklepper Wihtout the necessary schedules for reference, I'll have to leave the answer up to others. But if the Badger and Gopher are one, does that mean that I got one right? I'm still puzzling over how for some 60 years I thought the C&O cars were handled by the NYC into Michigan Central station. I did make a number of WWII trips to Detroit, mostly with parents and mostly on the Empire State Expres, but a few times by myself, coach overnight on the Wolverine or Detroit Arrow (PRR), and lots of trips by myself to Charlotteseville, but it was long after WWII when I went from Detroit to Prince, and then Prince to NY. Possibly, ages 10-14 I saw some C&O equipment in Michigan Central station on a special movement of one sort or another; thought that was the evidence; and never bothered to check.
Wihtout the necessary schedules for reference, I'll have to leave the answer up to others. But if the Badger and Gopher are one, does that mean that I got one right?
I'm still puzzling over how for some 60 years I thought the C&O cars were handled by the NYC into Michigan Central station. I did make a number of WWII trips to Detroit, mostly with parents and mostly on the Empire State Expres, but a few times by myself, coach overnight on the Wolverine or Detroit Arrow (PRR), and lots of trips by myself to Charlotteseville, but it was long after WWII when I went from Detroit to Prince, and then Prince to NY.
Possibly, ages 10-14 I saw some C&O equipment in Michigan Central station on a special movement of one sort or another; thought that was the evidence; and never bothered to check.
Al may have sounded a bit cryptic when he stated that the Gopher and the Badger were the same train. There were two sets of equipment, and each made a round trip each day, running as the Badger, providing local service on the morning trip, and as the Gopher, providing limited stop service in the evening; the westbound Gopher made a connection to the westbound Empire Builder in Minneapolis. If the eastbound Empire Builder was not badly late (due in Minneapolis at 6:25 a.m.), you could take the Badger to the Twin Ports (leave Minneapolis at 8:27 a.m.) Incidentally, the NP and Soo trains to Duluth ran Minneapolis-St. Paul-Duluth, and the GN trains ran St. Paul-Minneapolis-Duluth; this service was a pool service.
I will hazard a guess as to the Washington State train, and say it was the International (two sets provided three schedules a day between Seattle and Vancouver). The Montana train may have been a Havre-Great Falls-Butte train.
As to C&O cars in the Michigan Central station, some event may have prevented operation into the Fort Street station. Dave, when you went to Prince from Detroit, you took the C&O all the way, unless you had to detour over the B&O south of Toledo. The probable route of such a detour would have been B&O to Fostoria via North Baltimore and then C&O the rest of the way. You asked about other routes from Tidewater Virginia to Detroit; the C&O is the only one that I ever saw in any schedule.
Johnny
daveklepper Gopher and Badger are two, if my memory is correct, the third possibly either the Winnipeg train or the GN contribution to the pool Portland Seattle service?
Gopher and Badger are two, if my memory is correct, the third possibly either the Winnipeg train or the GN contribution to the pool Portland Seattle service?
Name the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?
Texas Zephyr
Now I am home and have the information .
The railroad was the Missouri Pacific and the train was the Valley Eagle.
What made the train different was the composition. Besides a Baggage RPO the train consisted of a Grill Coach that was open to the white passengers only. The other three cars in each consist were Stateroom chair cars and the staterooms were for any overflow white passengers from the grill coach. This is the only train I have been able to find so equipped.
daveklepper Does your information indicate what exactly the New York Central trains were that handled the Sportsman and George Washington through cars? Was I wrong to remember coaches as well as Pullmans running though?
Does your information indicate what exactly the New York Central trains were that handled the Sportsman and George Washington through cars? Was I wrong to remember coaches as well as Pullmans running though?
The Big Four did handle sleepers from/to the C&O at Cincinnati to and from Chicago and St. Louis. The Big Four also handled sleepers from/to the Sportsman between Columbus and Cleveland. The NYC did carry a sleeper that came into Toledo on the Sportsman from Toledo to Chicago; this car was returned by the Big Four from Chicago to the C&O at Cincinnati.
Texas Zepher passengerfanTexas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train?Ok, yesterday I hunted and hunted for this question and could not find it. I spent several hours researching everything I can think of and have given up. I can find plenty on the segregation, but nothing on a specific streamliner... What is the answer. And what happend to my message that said I could not find this message yesterday. Seems like I'm in a time warp here.
passengerfanTexas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train?
And what happend to my message that said I could not find this message yesterday. Seems like I'm in a time warp here.
Also rode the Detroit - Cincinnati day train, several times, middle late 1960's.
I rode the Sportsman from Detroit to Prince, WVa (for Beckley) around 1964, by then from Fort Street and south over the B&O, if memory is correct. Then, there were coaches and sleepers.
daveklepper I am unsure of dates, but I can recall in the WWII years, during myh visits to Charloteseville, that a relative would board the Detroit section of either of the two C&O trains mentioned for a trip to Detroit. The years of these visits were 1942 and 1943. I can also recall seeing the names of the two C&O trains listed on the departure board at Detroit's Michigan Central Station in 1945 or 1946, if my memory is correct. That was the information I was going on. And I don't know of any other through service from Detroit to the Norfolk area. Does anyone else?
I am unsure of dates, but I can recall in the WWII years, during myh visits to Charloteseville, that a relative would board the Detroit section of either of the two C&O trains mentioned for a trip to Detroit. The years of these visits were 1942 and 1943. I can also recall seeing the names of the two C&O trains listed on the departure board at Detroit's Michigan Central Station in 1945 or 1946, if my memory is correct. That was the information I was going on.
And I don't know of any other through service from Detroit to the Norfolk area. Does anyone else?
In the early sixties, the C&O and B&O began getting together, and the B&O trains were gradually weaned away from the MC station and moved to the Fort Street station. The last service over the MC was a Saturday only roundtrip from Deshler and back; this ended in the late sixties. The last B&O service in Detroit was the day train to Cincinnati; I rode it, leaving from Fort Street, in the spring of 1969.
DeggestyZephyrOverlandThere were several other named trains besides the Havana Special that departed and/or arrived in Key West: - Biscayne - Florida East Coast Limited - Key West Express - Key West Special - Oversea - Over-Sea Limited - Overseas Limited - Tropical Limited Yes, I did not check the 1916 FEC/ACL representation. It shows The Over-Sea Limited as the through train between New York and Key West. There was also the Key West Express, which was then operated (overnight) between Jacksonville and Miami only. And, there was a mixed train that took all day between Miami and Key West. I would say that the Havana Special is the train best known to us poor people who know mainly the trains from the forties and on. Thanks for telling us about the others. Johnny
ZephyrOverlandThere were several other named trains besides the Havana Special that departed and/or arrived in Key West: - Biscayne - Florida East Coast Limited - Key West Express - Key West Special - Oversea - Over-Sea Limited - Overseas Limited - Tropical Limited
- Biscayne
- Florida East Coast Limited
- Key West Express
- Key West Special
- Oversea
- Over-Sea Limited
- Overseas Limited
- Tropical Limited
Thanks for telling us about the others.
daveklepper Were any though passenger cars carried on car floats to Cuba? That would be even further south! Ever? When I said the B&O and C&O always (or almost always, the moves may not have been perfectly sycnornized) used the same station(s), I wasa correct. Because before the merger or takeover of the B&O into the Chessie system, in the days when the New York Central carreid the through cars of the Sportsman and the George Washington through to Detroit (not sure about the FFV) the C&O did effectly serve Detroit via the NYC. The wartime traffic between Detroit and the Norfolk area was sufficient for the Sportsman and GW to have a separate Detroit section west of Charlotteseville, and operation as unique trains on the NYC.
Were any though passenger cars carried on car floats to Cuba? That would be even further south! Ever?
When I said the B&O and C&O always (or almost always, the moves may not have been perfectly sycnornized) used the same station(s), I wasa correct. Because before the merger or takeover of the B&O into the Chessie system, in the days when the New York Central carreid the through cars of the Sportsman and the George Washington through to Detroit (not sure about the FFV) the C&O did effectly serve Detroit via the NYC. The wartime traffic between Detroit and the Norfolk area was sufficient for the Sportsman and GW to have a separate Detroit section west of Charlotteseville, and operation as unique trains on the NYC.
Dave, can you give dates as to when the NYC System handled the C&O’s Sportsman and George Washington between Toledo and Detroit? I do not have precise information on hand, but it has been my understanding that the C& O did not operate any trains even to Toledo until it had absorbed the Hocking Valley and built a connection to the Hocking Valley at Columbus sometime in the thirties. All the schedule information I have (1916, 1930, and late thirties to present), indicates that for several years, the Hocking Valley and the PM had operated through service between Detroit and Columbus, and the PM continued to carry the through trains that came into Toledo on up to Detroit after the C&O was able to operate trains through Columbus to Toledo.
As to the B&O Detroit service, there is no doubt that the NYC System handled the B&O trains into Detroit after WWII. The PM and the Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton were operating through trains between Detroit and Cincinnati in 1917, and this practice continued after the B&O absorbed the CH&D. Apparently after the PM was merged with the C&O the B&O did not want its trains handled by its Washington-Middle West competitor, and changed to the NYC .
As to passenger cars to Cuba, even though there was regular freight car service, I know of no passenger car service, not even in 1916.
Deggestypassengerfan Deggesty New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States? Johnny How about the Havana Special of the FEC. Al - in - Stockton I got off easily on this one. Yes, the Havana Special went to Key West, passing through Miami in the small hours of the morning and arriving in Key West after an early breakfast. It left Key West just before time for dinner, and passed through Miami four hours later. I presume that the passengers in the Key West-Miami car were allowed to spend most of the night on the car, even if they had not yet gone to bed when it arrived in Miami. The January, 1930, Guide gives no information about occupancy for the southbound or northbound cars. Your question, Al in - Stockton Johnny
passengerfan Deggesty New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States? Johnny How about the Havana Special of the FEC. Al - in - Stockton
Deggesty New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States? Johnny
New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?
Your question, Al in - Stockton
Possibly the Central's Detroit Tunnel electrification might make a good subject for Classic Trains. The existing and extended GCT electrification is well known, and most people know about Cleveland, but Detroit is often forgotten.
I rode the CP Toronto - Detroit, but by that time diesels had replaced steam, and the electrification was abandoned. I wonder if after that, the CP power and engine crews ran through to Detroit, or did they change at Windsor? Anyone know? The train crew was changed at Detroit. At the time I rode there was an overnighter Chicago - Toronto, and a day train. These were both integrated into the more frequent Windsor - Toronto and Detroit - Chicago service. The latter included four through trains from New York City, if my memory is correct.
Texas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train?
al-in-chgo Deggesty New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States? Johnny The Dixie Flagler to Key West? - a.s.
The Dixie Flagler to Key West? - a.s.
passengerfan How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station. Al - in - Stockton
How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station.
Al, I am sure Dave was referring to the CP–"But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station). Hint: The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees. Hint No. 2: Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII."
An interesting arrangement with the crews?
daveklepper B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station. But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station). Hint: The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees. Hint No. 2: Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII. Other than that, you are certianly a winner. I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper. Any one know more about this?
B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station. But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station). Hint: The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees. Hint No. 2: Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII.
Other than that, you are certianly a winner. I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper. Any one know more about this?
Incidentally, the C&O did not go into Detroit until it absorbed the PM after the war; the PM handled the Sportsman, as well as the B&O trains between Toledo and Detroit.
For some time after the war, the B&O used the NYC/MC for a time, and then went back to the C&O.
As to the DT&I, I checked in my copies of the Guide that were published during the war, and the DT&I (which really was a common carrier) had only freight service by January of 1941.
Last year, I went to Detroit on Amtrak and used the Amtrak station. We do not advise going through Detroit if you are going to Canada by rail: you may have to wait quite a while to get a taxi driver who has the necessary permit to go into and back out of Canada--and the same holds if you come back through Windsor. It is also expensive, what with the tunnel toll.
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