CSSHEGEWISCH al-in-chgo Looks like I rudely interrupted myself. Here's the new question again: Give the wheel arrangement (configuration), in code, for the GG-1. Salud! - a.s. That's easy enough: 2-C+C-2
al-in-chgo Looks like I rudely interrupted myself. Here's the new question again: Give the wheel arrangement (configuration), in code, for the GG-1. Salud! - a.s.
Looks like I rudely interrupted myself. Here's the new question again:
Give the wheel arrangement (configuration), in code, for the GG-1.
Salud! - a.s.
That's easy enough: 2-C+C-2
Paul, you win, and you have the right to post the next question. - a.s.
daveklepper I remember this very clearly. Also, if I remember correctly, the same occured on those railroads, Alton, IC, and Wabash, runniing overnight Chicago - St. Louis sleepers. The Pullman sleepers were needed because of a massive movement of military from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast, since Germany surrended about five months before Japan. The men-only parlor car allowed men to sleep in their underwear or shorts without disturbing women.
I remember this very clearly. Also, if I remember correctly, the same occured on those railroads, Alton, IC, and Wabash, runniing overnight Chicago - St. Louis sleepers. The Pullman sleepers were needed because of a massive movement of military from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast, since Germany surrended about five months before Japan.
The men-only parlor car allowed men to sleep in their underwear or shorts without disturbing women.
And if the men encountered the women, they might get a little "disturbed" themselves if you know what I mean. - a.s.
Okay, here's the question: I think it's something people will either know or not.
Great, Johnny! We're just sitting down to an early dinner so please give me a little while to verify my question.
al
al-in-chgoOkay, regarding the NH losing its sleepers, is this one of those "for the Duration" situations? That the military ordered the sleepers reassigned?
Al, that's close enough. The Office of Defense Transport ordered that all sleepers assigned to runs of 450 miles or less were to be used for transporting returned military. This took care of many overnight runs--such as New York-Buffalo (sleepers that went through Buffalo, with destinations more than 450 miles from NYC were not affected), Chicago-St. Louis, Louisville-St. Louis, Louisville-Nashville, etc. I know of one 161.1 mile line that was allowed to continue: Southern's Atlanta to Birmingham. On its return from Birmingham (on #12), the car continued to NYC on the Piedmont Limited; this was a 10-1-2 which apparently came into Atlanta from NYC on #29; perhaps the Atlanta-Birmingham leg (on #11) was considered to be a continuation from #29 even though it had a different line number (Pullman line 2653 NYC to Atlanta; 2641 Atlanta to Birmingham; 2657 Birmingham to NYC).
Your question.
Johnny
Okay, regarding the NH losing its sleepers, is this one of those "for the Duration" situations? That the military ordered the sleepers reassigned? At one time ordinary enlisted men were expected to sleep two in a lower berth (still one in the upper berth), so the sleepers' capacities would probably be at least as great as a pre-World War II parlor car. Not to mention a better night's sleep for the sevicemen.
Katharine Hepburn: "Between the upper class and the lower, give me the lower."
Jimmy Stewart: "Only if you can't get a drawing room."
from The Philadelphia Story, MGM, 1940.
al-in-chgoThe sleeping cars were deemed a luxury for a trip of only five hours or so to Boston, and were needed for l-d travel elsewhere, probably for military use.
No, Al, it was not because sleepers were deemed a luxury for this particular overnight service. Many other railroads were also affected by the order that caused the NH to substitute parlor cars for sleepers; they simply had to add a coach or two to their overnight service. You came close to the real reason, though. After a time; I do not know just when it was; the overnight sleeper service was reinstated.
The sleeping cars were deemed a luxury for a trip of only five hours or so to Boston, and were needed for l-d travel elsewhere, probably for military use. But the Pullman people got some of their own back by owning the parlor cars and getting to keep part of the first-class fare. Why the Owl had a parlor car just for men, was probably because there was a high proportion of businessmen heading to Boston from NYC or reverse, at a time when businesswomen were almost unheard of. Probably the men's car tolerated smoking and cussing, but I don't know about that.
daveklepper Meanwhile, I'll be intersted in Johnny's question.
In late 1945, the New Haven stopped operating sleepers on its overnight Boston-New York train, the Owl, and operated parlor cars, including one for men only. Why? Other railroads also stopped operating overnight sleepers for the same reason.
Thy NYC did offer a stopover in Detroit, obviously, but less obvious was Pittsfield, MA, with travel there via the Harlem Division and then the B&A to Albany or Troy. Lake Placid, including some travel on the D&H, Niagra Falls, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati, but I did not know about Pittsburgh and have my doubts. Possibly Toronto.
PRR inlcuded Detroit, with some travel on the Wabash on the Chicago- Detroit link, Toledo, Cinciinati, Indfianapolis, Richmond IN, Willmington, Baltimre, and Washington. Possibly Buffalo, Cleveland, and Erie PA. Atlantic City definitely, at least on first class tickets.
The B&O would certainly include Atlantic City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis. Possibly Rochester. Anyone else wish to suggest others? Meanwhile, I'll be intersted in Johnny's question.
daveklepperTher side trip stopovers I am looking for are only for the three full-fare routes, B&O, PRR, and NYC. Enough answsers and you'll then ask the next question.
I would be absolutely guessing about no-additional-fare side trips that a railroad offered on its own lines. However, it may have been possible to make the following side trips which involved traveling on the main of one road and taking a branch of that road to a point on the main,of another road, with first-class service all the way (there were some possible trips that involved coach only travel).
NYC to points on the B&O: Fostoria, O. Youngstown, O. Pittsburgh, Pa.
NYC to points on the PRR: Pittsburgh, Pa. Warsaw, Ind. Grand Rapids, Mich.
PRR to points on the NYC: Canandaigua, N. Y. Buffalo, N. Y. Cleveland, O. Toledo, O. Detroit, Mich Erie, Pa.
PRR to points on the B&O: Youngstown, O. Akron, O. Martinsburg, W. Va.
B&O to points on the PRR: Lima, O.
B&O to points on the NYC: Toledo, O. Cleveland, O.
These are in additon to some already named.
Incidentally, whether you rode B&O or PRR, the fare Chicago to Baltimore and the fare Chicago to Washington were the same.
daveklepper If anyone has access to OGs for the 1947-1950 period, I think you will find both a through coach and sleeper, and for a while the LV train was called the Maple Leaf. Several coaches and sleepers were used the days the start and end of winter and spring breaks for LV's on-line universites and colleges (not just Cornel, but also Ithaca College, one or two State Universities, Hamilton College, etc.) since the LV-CN-GTW route was popular for these studemts and faculty for travel to and from the west and midwest. This through equipment may not have run every day, possibly certain days of the week.
If anyone has access to OGs for the 1947-1950 period, I think you will find both a through coach and sleeper, and for a while the LV train was called the Maple Leaf. Several coaches and sleepers were used the days the start and end of winter and spring breaks for LV's on-line universites and colleges (not just Cornel, but also Ithaca College, one or two State Universities, Hamilton College, etc.) since the LV-CN-GTW route was popular for these studemts and faculty for travel to and from the west and midwest. This through equipment may not have run every day, possibly certain days of the week.
As to the name of LV's train with through service to Toronto from Philadelphia and New York City, it had been changed to the Maple Leaf by November, 1937. I have no information dated between June, 1930, and November, 1937, so I do not know when the name was changed. And, the name remained until the LV dropped the train altogether.
daveklepper Johnny is correct, that the two through-train low-fare routes were DL&W-NKP and Erie, both with through name trains with coaches, sleepers, and diner, and possibly a lounge car as well. In addition there was one almost route, the Lehigh Valley and Canadian National and Grand Trunk Western. The Lehigh Valley train was the Maple Leaf, and it carried through coaches and sleepers for both Toronto and Chicago. But the Maple Leaf as a train ran to Toronto, and the coaches and sleepers for Chcago were handled by a train with either no name or a different one. (Assuming memory is correct.) The fare was the same as the two with the through trains. The LV did not particularly solicit business to Chicago, but did for business to South Bend, Grand Rapids, Durand, etc. The Maple Leaf did have the advantage of leaving from Penn Station, Manhattan.
Johnny is correct, that the two through-train low-fare routes were DL&W-NKP and Erie, both with through name trains with coaches, sleepers, and diner, and possibly a lounge car as well. In addition there was one almost route, the Lehigh Valley and Canadian National and Grand Trunk Western. The Lehigh Valley train was the Maple Leaf, and it carried through coaches and sleepers for both Toronto and Chicago. But the Maple Leaf as a train ran to Toronto, and the coaches and sleepers for Chcago were handled by a train with either no name or a different one. (Assuming memory is correct.) The fare was the same as the two with the through trains. The LV did not particularly solicit business to Chicago, but did for business to South Bend, Grand Rapids, Durand, etc. The Maple Leaf did have the advantage of leaving from Penn Station, Manhattan.
Now, to look at possible sidetrips during the War.
Ther side trip stopovers I am looking for are only for the three full-fare routes, B&O, PRR, and NYC. Enough answsers and you'll then ask the next question.
In the time period that Dave specifies, there were two through "low fare" routes: Erie and DL&W/NKP. It was possible to buy a ticket NY-Chi over DL&W/NYC, but there was no through service, and the fare was higher than that of the DL&W/NKP, although it was lower than the NYC fare. There was a Hoboken-Detroit sleeper that ran DL&W/NYC, but its fare was lower than that of the NYC New York-Detroit service.
Well your "low fare" routes out of NYC to Chi had to be the Erie (direct), and the Lackawanna and Lehigh Valley routes via NKP or NYC from Buffalo (through cars not trains). CNJ-RDG to PRR at H'brg or B&O further on. O&W never got into the race.
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I am asking for off main direct line stopover points onliy for the B&O, PRR, and NYC. And the cutoff dates on which OG's are applciable would be the start of WWII and the date of the end of B&O passenger service to Jersey City and NY, which was 1952, I htink, noit '54.
I mentioned Princeton on the PRR. Yes, Niagra Falls was definitely a valid stopover on the Central, with your through ticket good from Buffalo and return. Another was Detroit (along with Ann Arbor, Windsor, St. Thomas, etc), and at least two and possibly four full-service NY - Chicago trains ran via Detroit, the Canada Southern, and the Michigan Central. And yes, one could make a side trip to Baltimore and/or Washington on the PRR, first so it could compete with the B&O, but the privilege did continue up to Penn Central and possibly even up to Amtrak. Can someone provide a long and logical listing?
I am not looking for such stopovers on the low fare competitors. Just who were they? And the C&O was not in the NY - Chicago business. YOu could route yourself that way but they did not solocite that business and did not have a through coach, onlyi a sometimes through Pullman. I suspect that if you did route yourself over the C&O, the fare would be the same as the PRR, NYC, and B&O. Which were the low fare routes (the same low fare).
al-in-chgo White Sulphur Springs -- the one in West Virginia, anyway, was on the exx-C&O mainline and the Cardinal stops there three times a week, right across the street from the Greenbriar resort, I've been told. (CSX sold the resort earlier this year). I don't think that would be associated with B&O, at least not until the two lines amalgamated in 1963 (C&O acquiring 93% of B&O), in which case the company might have offered a special fare over C&O/B&O trackage; they were known as being somewhat innovative in trying to retain passenger traffic. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it would have required a transfer, prob. Washington Union Station.
White Sulphur Springs -- the one in West Virginia, anyway, was on the exx-C&O mainline and the Cardinal stops there three times a week, right across the street from the Greenbriar resort, I've been told. (CSX sold the resort earlier this year).
I don't think that would be associated with B&O, at least not until the two lines amalgamated in 1963 (C&O acquiring 93% of B&O), in which case the company might have offered a special fare over C&O/B&O trackage; they were known as being somewhat innovative in trying to retain passenger traffic. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it would have required a transfer, prob. Washington Union Station.
I would think the NYC had Niagra Falls as a popular stop over point. White Sulpher Springs...wasn't that a B&O stopover point? or would we put D.C. on the coupon? The PRR is the toughest to guess because it would probably be east of Pittsburg putting Baltimore and or D.C. in the running. And don't forget the lowly Erie, the only other NY to Chi line makling Cleveland good possiblity.
Please bring some order out of the chaos of your reply. First , regarding the lower cost alternatives to the PRR, NYC, and BandO, I asked for through trains only, not some Pullmans that happened to be handled, like the CandO route that started out on the PRR in NY and ended up on the NYC in Chicago, You did mention some correct answers but be specific. Through NY to Chicago trains with diners, sleepers, and coaches.
Second, under each of the three railroads, NYC, PRR, and BandO simply list the logical off main line cities that someone might logically want to visit as a stopover. and where the basic through fare, with no extra charge, applied.
The reference Official Guide could be during WWII or just after, say up to 1954, which can be thought of as the year major passenger service retrenchment began.
Have fun and go to it. Hope to learn something myself!
Suppose St, Louis were one of the cities. It is not of course. But if were, you would not mention Bellville or Alton or Grafton or Springfield, IL, because it would be understood that were included when you mentioned St. Lous.
Which year and month's Official Guide do you want me to print, Dave? I mean after the Big 3 you mentioned there were the Erie, DL&W or LV to NKP or NYC, CNJ-RDG to either B&O or PRR, PRR to N&W, Off line trips were from Ottawa to Charleston, WVA on the NYC...Rochester and Buffalo to wherever on the PRR. Oil City on the Erie if you didn't go to Dunkirk or Buffalo (come to think of it you could go to Oil City on the Erie and leave on the PRR or vice versa!).. Or Pittsburg on the PRR via the DL&W's Bloom...cars from Syracuse, Utica, Buffalo and NY available at one time or another there. C&O of course got in the act out of D.C. PRR connections with side trip to the Greenbrier. Your question just fills the mind with all the fun you could have riding trains and making up combinations on branches, roads, and Pullman routes if you had the time and the money!!!
The three full-fare New York - Chicago rail routes were the New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Baltimore and Ohio. Fares were the same for all three, all allowed stopovers, with some stopovers not on the main route of travel between the two cities. First, for each of the above three railroads, list all the off-route stopover locations. Simple example that you might not think of: Princeton, NJ, for the PRR. Yes, a through NY - Chicago ticket allowed free passage back and forth on the Princeton Junction and back. I did it.
Second, list all the through low-fare practical trips on the other railroads, no change of cars even in coach and decent dining service all the way, sleeper service available.
passengerfan Dave .... I guess it is your question.
For anyones information that wants it the GN Internationals were ACF built streamliners inaugurated June 18, 1950. Each was five cars and operated three round trips daily between Seattle and Vancouver BC. One was initially powered with a new E7A and the other set was assigned an A-B set of F3 passenger units.
The Red River was inaugurated June 25, 1950 between St. Paul and Grand Forks operating southbond in the mornings and retuning northbound in the afternoon. This was a five car streamliner built by ACF and powered with a new E7A unit.
The Dakotan was a heavyweight train for most of its existence and only became a streamliined train after the Red River was discontinued. All but the Cafe Observation was assigned to the Dakotan and that car was rebuilt to a straight coach losing its rounded observation end in the rebuild becoming 68 seat coach 1147.
The other trains you mentioned were heavyweights and many ended up on the GN Seattle Portland pool train that did not receive streamlined cars until its final years as other trains were discontinued.
The only GN streamlined car to operate in the American/Canadian or Puget Sounder was the prewar Pendulum 68 seat coach 999 built by Pacific Railway and Equipment this car spent its entire career of assignments on the west coast. Either as an extra on the Internationals or frequently on the GN Seattle Portland pool train. Once the Empire Builder received domes in 1955 this released the 48 seat coaches from this train to the Western Star and the 48 seat coaches from the Western Star went to the Winnipeg Limiteds and Western coach trains such as the Cascadians, Internationals and Seattle/Portland pool trains. Summers these cars were often assigned as extras to the Western Stars that often ran as many as twenty cars in length with the estra coaches and off-line sleepers assigned to this train going to Glacier National Park. The Western Star carried off line passenger cars from the east through Chicago and Western off line cars from Portland and Seattle. These were all extra sleepers destined for Glacier National Park.
Al - in - Stockton
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