Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[daveklepper]

The Golden State at one time had a thru NY sleeper or mybe two, if my memory is correct.

[KCSfan]

Deggesty

In April of 1955, there were still ten through Pullman lines operated between the East Coast and the West Coast.

Name the cities on both coasts, and name the railroads that carried the lines.

Johnny

Johnny,

OK I'll have a go at trying to name them.

NY - LA  PRR/CNW/UP (WB - Penna Ltd/City of LA, EB - City of LA/The General)

NY - LA  PRR/Santa Fe (Broadway Ltd/Super Chief)

NY - SF  PRR/CNW/UP (Penna Ltd/SF Overland)

NY - SF  PRR/Burlington/Rio Grande/WP (Penna Ltd/Califonia Zephyr)

NY - LA  NYC/Santa Fe (20thCentury Ltd/Super Chief)

NY - LA  NYC/CNW/UP (WB - The Chicagoan/City of LA, EB - City of LA/Commodore Vanderbilt)

NY - SF  NYC/CNW/UP (WB - The Wolverine/SF Overland, EB - SF Overland/Lake Shore Ltd)

NY - SF  NYC/Burlington/Rio Grande/WP (Lake Shore Ltd/California Zephyr)

Washington/LA  B&O/Santa Fe (WB - The Shenandoah/Super Chief, EB - Super Chief/Capitol Ltd)

I've only come up with nine routes and will have to rely on you or someone else to identify the one that I've missed. I'd guess that the Super Chief carried the most coast to coast sleepers.

Mark

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

Later on tonight I'll have a bit more time to try to answer your questions but for now I'll take on the extra credit part. The ad that spurred the service was "A hog can cross the country without changing trains but you can't" or something to that effect. I believe that ad was the brainchild of Robert R. Young.

Mark 

Mark, you're right that Robert R. Young shamed the railroads into providing true transcontinental service after WWII. I do not remember seeing the ads when he had them run, but I did see, in later years, reference to them.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

Later on tonight I'll have a bit more time to try to answer your questions but for now I'll take on the extra credit part. The ad that spurred the service was "A hog can cross the country without changing trains but you can't" or something to that effect. I believe that ad was the brainchild of Robert R. Young.

Mark 

[KCSfan]

wanswheel

Mark, it seems there was a total of 30 such 2-8-2s on the EJ&E roster.

Mike,

Wow, that's far more than I remembered and leads me to wonder why any, much less 30, EJ&E engines were so equipped.  The C&EI/EJ&E connection was at Chicago Heights and from the time I was born in 1932 until 1955 I lived just a few miles west of the C&EI mainline. I often saw their trains at both Chicago Heights and Thornton but never saw an EJ&E engine on C&EI trackage. Perhaps the C&EI sometimes borrowed engines from the EJ&E to head their road freights which would be one explanation for the Miller T.C. on the EJ&E Mikes. But if they did I was never aware of it.

Mark 

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

Your turn to ask the next question.

Mark

In April of 1955, there were still ten through Pullman lines operated between the East Coast and the West Coast.

Name the cities on both coasts, and name the railroads that carried the lines.

Tiebreaker: which train to the West Coast carried the most through cars each trip?

Extra credit: what advertisement spurred the railroads to begin offering through coast-to-coast service?

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Mark, it seems there was a total of 30 such 2-8-2s on the EJ&E roster.

http://www.ejearchive.com/page_steamroster.html

Excerpt from Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen's Magazine (1911)

The mechanism of the Miller System is so designed and constructed that it can be installed on any steam or electric road using automatic or manual block signals (with track circuit), and in no way changes standard conditions. To be at all times true with the track conditions; to automatically and positively control or stop the train when signals are at caution or stop position; to correct an automatic signal at clear failure, or a manual signal that has been pulled clear when there is danger in the block ahead; to automatically correct any inherent defects in the mechanism itself; to operate under all conditions of weather that permit the running of trains, and with all, to be so arranged that the engineer can proceed against the current of traffic, or handle his train under control when in terminals and running red signals, are all conditions the fulfillment of which are claimed for the Miller Train Control System. The failure of any part of track conditions that will cause an automatic block signal system to display caution or danger signals will cause this system to perform its function. There are no engine circuits, and the closing of the throttle and the application of the brakes are performed mechanically, the action being the same as if the engineer had performed those functions himself.

This system comprises a shoe and control mechanism on the engine and a stationary ramp, from 100 to 150 feet in length, in the center or at the side of the track. The ramp has a gradual rise of 1-1/2 inches in 50 feet. This ramp is electrically divided in the center and is energized by connection from track relay through circuit-breaker on signal. When the track conditions are safe and the signal clear, the train will proceed with no warning or application of brakes. In case there is danger in the block ahead, however, the track relay will open, the signal go to danger, and the ramp be de-energized. This condition will stop the train, and would also stop the train if the signal failed clear, because the connection would be true with relay or track conditions. Again, if the track condition was O. K. and the signal at danger, this system would be true with the signal, because the same circuit would be broken through circuit-breaker on signal, thereby not confusing the engineer with a stop signal and a clear ramp.

The absence of the ramp circuit allows the vertical movement of the shoe to carry a latch (which is always on the danger side) in the same direction, which in turn operates a bell crank that connects by a suitable rod with the cab mechanism; the rod running from bell crank to cab has a sliding connection that will prevent any injury to cab mechanism should there be an excessive movement of the shoe. To quote, the general master mechanic of one of our big railroads says: "I see no reason why it can not be applied to any of the different types of our locomotives, as it in no way will interfere with the operation thereof."

The cab mechanism is very simple and in no way interferes with the handling of the locomotive. The apparatus automatically handles the regular running valve, carrying it to a predetermined position. The same movement closes the throttle. The engineer releasing the brakes in the usual manner also releases the throttle-holding device. When the brakes are applied and the throttle closed they remain in that position until released by the engineer.

Excerpt from Locomotive Engineers Journal (1920)

A Real Safety First Appliance by C. F. Kline, Div. 100

In our September Journal is an item in regard to another fatal rear-end collision between passenger trains, and recommends flagging the same in automatic signal territory as in unprotected territory. This is all right so far as it goes, but no human being is perfect, and something might happen to the engineer of an oncoming train just at a critical moment. For instance, he might be struck and knocked unconscious by a mail crane, or perhaps death might suddenly overtake him. Suppose any of these things should occur to an engineer going up to a train ahead, or an open switch, or an open derail, and he, unfortunately, had a student fireman; the result would, of course, be a terrible disaster, and we all know these conditions are possible. It is not necessary to mention particular cases, for we all know of them, but I have in mind several accidents which have occurred in recent years in automatic block territory which could have been avoided even if the engineer of the oncoming train had been dead at his post, if the Miller Train Control system, now in use on the C. & E. I. railroad, were in operation there. The Chicago division of the C. & E. I. railroad, where I am running, and the Danville district between Danville and Dolton, are equipped with automatic signals, and in addition to this have the Miller Train Control system, operated by a combination of air and electricity. A ramp—which is a kind of elevated bed or platform—about 180 feet long, is laid at certain places alongside of the track and is energized with electricity from batteries in cisterns, the same as used for the automatic signals. A shoe hung on a hanger bar is fastened to frame of front tank truck and air and electric wire connections on up to the engineer's brake valve, where it is connected to a magnet and to the brake valve. In passing over the ramp alongside of the track the shoe is raised by contact with it, and if the ramp is energized with electricity the train goes on. But should there be a train in the block, an open switch, an open derail, or a broken rail, the ramp is "dead" and when the shoe raises the brake will apply, even if the engineer should be unconscious. At the same time this does not relieve the flagman from performing his duties. It is also strictly the rule that stop must be made if the ramp should be dead and the automatic signal in advance seen to be showing clear. There have been cases known here of automatic signal showing clear and ramp would set brakes, and upon investigation a train would be found in the block. I consider the Miller Train Control the best and safest flagman I have ever seen or heard of, and hope to see the day when all railroads will be equipped with it, or some other such device. The C. & E. I. railroad has 108 miles of this train control in service on double track and we appreciate the safety it provides, especially in a fog or other bad weather conditions.

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

Absolutely right, but I don't think the GTW engines were equipped for Miller Train Control. I do know for a fact that around six EJ&E 2-8-2's were so equipped for operation on C&EI trackage. The Miller system of ATS lasted on the C&EI until 1952. Your turn to ask the next question.

Mark

[Deggesty]

Miller Train Control was a system which caused the brakes to be applied if a train overran a signal set at Stop. The C&EI used it between Chicago and Danville. The GTW apparently used the C&EI between Thornton Jct.and Dolton.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

New question. What was Miller Train Control and what railroad pioneered its use? What other railroad had some locomotives equipped with Miller Train Control so they could run on the preceding road?

Mark

[wanswheel]

Mark, yes of course. Your turn.

http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=40

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=172698

[Deggesty]

Yes, and the Gold Coast, which came up the Hill at the same time, made it on through. Sadly, some passengers on the plebian train thought that the extra-fare train was more likely to make it through the snow, and transferred to the City--so they were late reaching their destinations.

The same issue of Trains which had the account of this stranding also had an account of an NP train that was stranded many years earlier. The passengers on this train fared better, as there was wood available to be used to keep the fires burning, and there was also meat on the hoof outside, which could be shot.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

City of San Francisco  at or near Donner Pass.

Mark

[wanswheel]

What classic train got stuck in the snow for 3 days in January 1952?

Mike

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Johnny, the Pere Marquette Historical Society car roster calls it Imperial Salon lounge coach.  It had a smoking section with 8 double seats facing the windows.

Pennsylvania Railroad? 

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=P70_deluxe_1702_fp-E95156B.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr=

Mike, you have information I don't have. I was going by the PM representation in the October, 1944, Guide, which simply called the cars "salon cars." I also, just now, looked in the November, 1939, issue--and it calls the Chicago-Grand Rapids cars on the day trains "Imperial Salon cars," and it showed the same cars on the passenger trains between Detroit and Grand Rapids.

Here are some links for Imperial Salon cars

http://wilkinsontrains.com/traindisp.cfm?train_id=340

http://rr-fallenflags.org/steamtown/co-c725r.jpg

As to a third road, the only one I knew of was the L&N. The Heart of Dixie club had in its museum in Birmingham (the museum is in Calera, now) an L&N coach with the same type of seats. This may have been operated on the Pan American. It does look as though the PRR operated the same.

What question do you have for us now?

Johnny

 

[wanswheel]

Johnny, the Pere Marquette Historical Society car roster calls it Imperial Salon lounge coach.  It had a smoking section with 8 double seats facing the windows.

Pennsylvania Railroad? 

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=P70_deluxe_1702_fp-E95156B.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr=

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Imperial Salons? They had "2 and 1 seating" for 45 passengers, arranged as 13 double seats across the aisle from 13 single seats, plus 1 double seat at the front of the car facing backwards, and 2 probably somewhat narrower double seats at the back of the car, I think.

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-7456.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA159

Yes, Mike, you have the name that the C&O used, and the seating arrangement. I had never seen a description of the exact arrangement, though I have seen  one or two pictures in C&O timetables of the period. Also, from one of the pictures, the single seats could be rotated so that two passengers could converse. 

Now, what did the PM call its coaches (probably of the same type, since the name is similar)? What other road used similar coaches (I have been in one, but I did not note the number of seats nor the arrangement at the ends of the car)?

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Imperial Salons? They had "2 and 1 seating" for 45 passengers, arranged as 13 double seats across the aisle from 13 single seats, plus 1 double seat at the front of the car facing backwards, and 2 probably somewhat narrower double seats at the back of the car, I think.

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-7456.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA159

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Johnny, yes the Empire Builder and, since they account for 8 of the 9 fastest runs of 1956, the Afternoon Zephyr is perfectly fine. Your turn.

OK, here is one that may have to be researched.

In the late thirties and early forties, the C&O had a unique name for the coaches operated on the George Washington, F.F.V, and Sportsman. What was it? Also, what was different about these  cars? At the same time, the Pere Marquette had a similar name for the coaches operated on the day trains between Chicago and Grand Rapids. And, another railroad operated similar coaches on at least one train, though it simply called them "reclining seat coaches."

The fastest mile I ever timed on track with only ABS was one mile in 35 seconds--on IC #4 between Crystal Springs and Jackson, Miss. Three coaches, one baggage, one RPO, and two E8's or E9's.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Johnny, yes the Empire Builder and, since they account for 8 of the 9 fastest runs, the Afternoon Zephyr is perfectly fine. Your turn. Here's the list of "Fastest Scheduled Train Runs in the United States" based on 1956 timetables, from the 1957 World Almanac and Book of Facts, which cites Trains Magazine and the American Association of Railroads as the source.

84.4 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse - 57.7 miles

82.2 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - La Crosse to Prairie du Chein

82.2 MPH - Empire Builder - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse

81.9 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein - 54.6 miles

81.9 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - Prairie du Chein to East Dubuque

81.8 MPH - City of Miami - Centrailia to Effingham - 53.2 miles

81.8 MPH - City of New Orleans - Effingham to Centrailia

81.2 MPH - Golden Gates - Wasco to Corcoran - 37.9 miles

81.2 MPH - Golden Gates - Corcoran to Wasco

81.1 MPH - City of Miami - Champaign to Mattoon - 44.6 miles

81.1 MPH - City of New Orleans - Champaign to Mattoon

81.1 MPH - Panama Limited - Champaign to Mattoon

80.8 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - New Lisbon to Portage - 43.1 miles

80.7 MPH - Challenger - Grande Island to North Platte - 137.2 miles

80.5 MPH - North Coast Limited - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse

79.2 MPH - City of Denver - North Platte to Kearney - 95 miles

79.1 MPH - AT&SF Number 3 - Gallup to Holbrooke - 94.9 miles

79.1 MPH - Grand Canyon north section - Gallup to Holbrooke

78.9 MPH - Chief - La Junta to Lamar - 52.6 miles

78.5 MPH - City of Los Angeles - Grande Island to North Platte

78.5 MPH - City of San Francisco - Grande Island to North Platte

78.5 MPH - Challenger - Grande Island to North Platte (after 4/29/56)

78.4 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - Portage to New Lisbon - 59.8 miles

78.3 MPH - three 400s - Kenosha to Waukeegan - 15.66 miles

78.3 MPH - Morning Hiawatha - Sparta to Portage - 78.3 miles

78.1 MPH - El Capitan - La Junta to Garden City - 152.5 miles

78.0 MPH - Aerotrain - Newark to Trenton - 48.1 miles

78.0 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - La Crosse to New Lisbon - 59.8 miles

77.8 MPH - Cleveland-Cincinnati Special - Mattoon to Paris - 37.6 miles

77.6 MPH - Rocky Mountain Rocket - Bureau to Moline - 64.7 miles

77.5 MPH - City of Denver - Fremont to Columbus - 45.2 miles

77.3 MPH - Commodore Vanderbilt - Gary to South Bend - 59.3 miles

77.2 MPH - Olympian Hiawatha - Portage to La Crosse - 102.9 miles

77.0 MPH - Denver Zephyr - Galesburg to Aurora - 124.5 miles

76.9 MPH - Nebraska Zephyr - Aurora to Mendota - 44.9 miles

76.9 MPH - American Royal Zephyr - Aurora to Mendota

76.9 MPH - Grand Canyon north section - Gallup to Holbrook

76.8 MPH - Chief - Lamar to Garden City - 99.9 miles

76.7 MPH - Denver Zephyr - Chicago to Galesburg - 162.2 miles

76.6 MPH - City of Miami - Mattoon to Effingham - 26.8 miles

76.6 MPH - City of New Orleans - Mattoon to Effingham

76.6 MPH - Panama Limited - Mattoon to Effingham

76.6 MPH - San Francisco Chief - Hanford to Wasco - 54.9 miles

76.3 MPH - NYC Number 741 - South Bend to La Porte - 26.7 miles

76.2 MPH - Empire Builder - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein

76.2 MPH - North Coast Limited - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein

76.1 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - Portage to Watertown - 46.9 miles

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

I asked for 5 trains but actually there are still 4 more trains that would be correct answers to this question, long-distance through trains that did their fastest station-to-station runs in Illinois or Wisconsin (2) or Nebraska.

Having at last found the courage to delve into my timetable collection, I have found two more Burlington trains that whizzed down the track--the westbound Empire Builder and the eastbound Afternoon Zephyr also covered the 55 miles between East Dubuque and Prairie du Chien in 41 minutes.

A note to all--do not expect a railroad that has no ABS or ATC (such as SAL) to have scheduled a train to run faster than 79 mph between two stations, much less average 80 or better from start to stop. The ICC would have descended on such a schedule like a ton of bricks.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Fastest N.E. Corridor run was the Aerotrain at 78 MPH from Newark to Trenton. The Broadway Limited and the Afternoon Congressional were relatively pokey at 70.1 MPH from Newark to North Philadelphia. The Broadway picked it up a tiny bit to 70.5 MPH from Paoli to Harrisburgh, which was the fastest scheduled run of an electric train in 1956. The crowded tie for second-fastest at 70.1 includes the northbound Afternoon Congressional and the New York Express from North Philadelphia to Newark, and the Theater Special from Michigan City Shops to New Carlisle.

I asked for 5 trains but actually there are still 4 more trains that would be correct answers to this question, long-distance through trains that did their fastest station-to-station runs in Illinois or Wisconsin (2) or Nebraska.

Mike

[henry6]

I see the Seboard had a 197 mile stretch from Raliegh to Hamlet that averaged 77.9 mph for a couple of trains in 6/58 guide, so it is possible for 50 miles stretches of 80 in there someplace. ACL also had a few long stretches of 100+ running which could not be found in public timetables, at least not the guide.  I am trying to figure out the GTW between Durand and Chicago, too, but also the guide hinders pinpointing mileages.

[henry6]

Ninety and even 100 plus were regular fare back then on what we call the Corridor.  But even with control points, or interlockings, etc., were taken into consideration, you'd find the distances less than 50 miles in each instance.

[daveklepper]

The public timetables and the Official Guide are not the only answers.   There are also employees timetables which show time past control points as scheduled .  I am certain that if one has a PRR emloyees timetable for the NY - Washington corredor, there are more than five trains on that corredor that will show more than 80 mlph running between Wilmington and Baltimore and between Baltimore and Washington, but not necessarily at the stations, just control point.   IN 1956 the fastest trains on the route were the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, which made the NY - Washington run, 225 miles, in 215 minutes inlcuding stops at Newark, Philadelphia 30th Street, Wilmington, Baltimore, and Washington.   Next in line were the Senator, the East Cosat Champion, and the Silver Meteor, which I think were scheduled for 225 minutes with the added stop at Trenton.

 

Someone should check on this who has access to the employees timetables.

[wanswheel]

Johnny, yes The City of New Orleans. Incidentally thanks for mentioning East Dubuque because, for this question, a "run" needs to be defined as the distance between two stops. Which puts El Cap at a disadvantage. Even if it did exceed 80 MPH for more than 50 mileposts, it's average speed on a 152.5-mile run was 78.1 MPH.

Heny, I guess you're right about trick question.

[Deggesty]

henry6

Wasn't there daily speed races between Milwaukee and Chicago?  So...MLW and CNW have to be considered... 

Yes, Henry, the Milwaukee and Northwestern vied for traffic between Chicago and Milwaukee--but their best schedules did not top even seventy mph.

Johnny

[henry6]

Wasn't there daily speed races between Milwaukee and Chicago?  So...MLW and CNW have to be considered... 

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Al, yes the U.S.A.

Henry, yes Burlington and Illinois Central.

Johnny, yes the Twin Zephyrs

Al, yes Union Pacific.

Mike, I knew that for many years both the Twin Zephyrs were the fastest scheduled trains in the  U. S. A. When looking at the timetable, I missed the East Dubuque stop--and noted just now that it took both the west-bound Zephyrs 39 minutes to cover the 55 miles from East Dubuque in 39  minutes, for an average speed of 85 mph. The east-bound Morning Zephyr was scheduled to take 41 minutes, for an average speed of 89.5 mph.

When I looked at the IC's schedules in northern Illinois (the only territory on the IC where such speed was allowed), I miscalculated, so declared that the IC was out. The southbound City of New Orleans was scheduled at 53 minutes for the 39 miles from Effingham to Centralia (this includes dwell time in Centralia), for an average speed of 82 mph.

I have not yet found anything on the UP, but there could have been some tightening of schedules by 1956.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Al, yes the U.S.A.

Henry, yes Burlington and Illinois Central.

Johnny, yes the Twin Zephyrs

Al, yes Union Pacific.