Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[daveklepper]

YOu got there first so let us have the next question.

[Texas Zepher]

CSSHEGEWISCH

I will say that the line in question is the Monarch Branch, which had a three-level switchback.  Apparently one of the tail tracks on the switchback crossed US 50.

ding ding ding ding ding.   We have a correct answer well at least the correct location.  At Garfield Colorado the lower switchback tail track crossed US 50.   So the train would pull into town and the back the train up the 4.5% grade to the upper tail track a few cars at a time.

The train was number 125.   In the narrow gauge era it was from Salida to Monarch (Madonna Mine).  When the line was converted to standard gauge in 1956, the train was able to take the daily load of dolomite (metamorphosed limestone) all the way to the CF&I steel mill in Pueblo.

Another interesting side story.   When the line was converted to standard gauge they used existing narrow gauge rail and had originally planned to use a single SD9 on the train.  It was thought the load distributed over the 6 wheel trucks would be better on the light rail.   The problem was that those same 3 axle trucks of the SD9 were not able to negotiate the 24 degree curves.  They had to switch to 2 smaller locomotives with 4 wheel trucks.    I do not know if this forced them to upgrade the rail, but I do know that both 85 lb and 112 lb rail was removed from the line in 1984.

Another side note is that one of the D&RGW Alco units from Salida was occasionally assigned to maintenance of way trains that worked on the monarch branch.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I will say that the line in question is the Monarch Branch, which had a three-level switchback.  Apparently one of the tail tracks on the switchback crossed US 50.

[Texas Zepher]

al-in-chgo

Something about a D&RGW line that was converted....was it the one that (has/had) junction in Grand Crossing, CO, with the main line?  (UP now, of course, but still the CZ route, I mean.)

It was the D&RGW, but it is not in Grand Junction nor on the route of the CZ.

[al-in-chgo]

Okay, I'm fumbling around in my memory, usually not a good idea, but here's a stab: 

Something about a D&RGW line that was converted....was it the one that (has/had) junction in Grand Crossing, CO, with the main line?  (UP now, of course, but still the CZ route, I mean.) 

 

 

[Texas Zepher]

OK this will probably be the give away hint.  This train ran as narrow gauge and then standard gauge.

[Texas Zepher]

passengerfan

The train I am thinking of is the Twin Star Rocket that backed across US 30 to get to Des Moines Station southbound  going to Kansas City and backed out of the station northbound across US 30 before continuing on its way to Minneapolis.

Interesting.  I knew there had to be others.  This one fails the clues on two counts  (highway US 50 and it is not a named train).

It is a western railroad.  It is a freight train.

[passengerfan]

The train I am thinking of is the Twin Star Rocket that backed across US 30 to get to Des Moines Station southbound  going to Kansas City and backed out of the station northbound across US 30 before continuing on its way to Minneapolis.

Al - in - Stockton

[Texas Zepher]

This was a twice daily happening (once each direction) until 1982.

[Texas Zepher]

The highway is US50.

[Texas Zepher]

 

KCSfan

This may not be the train you had in mind but the Sarasota section of the West Coast Champion, ACL No's 91 & 92, crossed 4-lane US Hwy 41 (the Tamiami Trail) at grade, running backwards enroute both to and from Tampa.

Wow, I knew there would be another instance of the situation.  That is not the one I was thinking of.   I was worried when I posted this that maybe the switchback connection of the SAL into the Richmond Broad Street Station might have crossed a major highway.

Your's is a better story than the train I am thinking of.  The one I am thinking of only had a flagman to go out into the highway and stop the cars.  If I am remembering properly that is also partly the cause of a horrible accident involving a school bus.  The other part is incorrectly set hand brakes.

 

 

[KCSfan]

Texas Zepher

What railroad and daily train (number not a name) worked a route where it regularly crossed a major highway going backwards (both eastbound and westbound).  Why did it do this?

TZ,

This may not be the train you had in mind but the Sarasota section of the West Coast Champion, ACL No's 91 & 92, crossed 4-lane US Hwy 41 (the Tamiami Trail) at grade, running backwards enroute both to and from Tampa. The Sarasota line joined the Jacksonville-Tampa mainline at Uceta Yard about 4 miles east of Tampa Union Station. The junction was such that when No. 92 coming north from Sarasota got onto the mainline it was headed east (toward Jacksonville) and then backed west the 4 miles into the station. The reverse was true of No. 91 leaving Tampa bound for Sarasota.

I rode these trains a number of times and would stand on the rear vestibule of the last car alongside the conductor during the reverse moves. There was an air whistle attached to the brake line which hung on a folding metal gate which closed off the rear vestibule and he would blow this as we approached the US 41 and the several other grade crossings which were traversed during the reverse moves.

IIRC I made the last of these trips in 1952 and subsequent to that time an overpass was constructed to carry US 41 over the tracks but there were several other streets which continued to be crossed at grade.

Mark 

[Texas Zepher]

Wow I always get the question right when I don't have one to ask....  Lets see. Always hard to be specific enough without giving it away.

What railroad and daily train (number not a name) worked a route where it regularly crossed a major highway going backwards (both eastbound and westbound).  Why did it do this?

[daveklepper]

Tex did get almost all the answers.   Regading looks, that can be a matter of opinion.   All the electric 4-6-6-4"s, the New Haven's EP-3, EP-4, and EF-3, and the PRR GG-1's, rode like a dream, really about the best riding locomotives anywhere.   I suppose the Little Joes of the South Shore and Milwaukee would ride as well, but they never got the chance to get up to speed the way the New Haven and Pennsy electrics did.  Top authorized speed on the PRR was 100 in spots and 70 in the electric zone on the New Haven.   Although the EF-3's were built for 60mph, it was found there was no problem in their running at 65 and then at 70 on passenger trains and they did so.

For the GG-1:   Over ten times as many built, longer service life (but that do to mistaken NYNH&H policy rather than the locomotive itself) higher top speed.

For the EF-3, Slightly higher horsepower, much greater tracive effort.   Not mentioned so far:  greater crew comfort and visibility.

So take it away Tex!

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

In what way were the GG-1's superior to the the New Haven's EF-3 double-end freight (some wtih boilders for passenger service) streamlined electrics, both 4-6-6-4 (2-C-C-2)?

 

In what ways were the EF-3's superior?. 

Did the EF-3's ride roughly?

[Texas Zepher]

daveklepper

In what way were the GG-1's superior to the the New Haven's EF-3 double-end freight (some wtih boilders for passenger service) streamlined electrics, both 4-6-6-4 (2-C-C-2)?

Hmmm 1.  GG-1s looked better.   2.  GG-1s outlasted their replacements (E44s) for a 48 year service live so that has to say something.  EF-3s were used less than 20 years.  3.  speed 110 mph.  4. EF-3s did not have 3rd rail shoes and could not run into places like Grand Central Station.  5.  Max HP (not continuous) of 9500 @ 49 mph.

In what ways were the EF-3's superior?. 

1.  brighter paint scheme.  2.  continuous HP of 4860 @ max 65 mph. vs 4620 @ max 90 mph of a GG1 (can't find hp of GG1 @ 65). 3.  Tractive effort of 90,000 lb  vs 70,700 lb of a GG1. Achieved by the lower gearing hence lower top end speed.

[narig01]

daveklepper

The investigation evenually concluded it must have been ballast kicked up from the roadbed, because there had been perfectly satisfactory brake applications where speed restriction required them after leaving the Baltimore station, and there was no New Carrolton at the time, the train was scheduled non-stop Baltimore - Washington.   Apparenly, the train did run through a section of track under maintenance where the tamping process had not been completed after installation of new ties or rail or whatever.

 If the concensus is that I should ask the next question, I will do so, but another candidate might have one ready right now, while I have to think a day or so.

  Just a question, was it cold enough for the line to have iced up? That seems more likely especially ih winter.   If the air dryer was not working properly or did not have?

   I can remember a couple of years ago a truck not having brakes when some rocks knocked off one of the airlines on a truck. With a truck this is easy to solve as the other line is an emergency line. (If the red line is disconnected or looses pressure it sets the parking brakes.)

Rgds IGN

[daveklepper]

In what way were the GG-1's superior to the the New Haven's EF-3 double-end freight (some wtih boilders for passenger service) streamlined electrics, both 4-6-6-4 (2-C-C-2)?

 

In what ways were the EF-3's superior?. 

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

So, anyone know of an incident of loss of brakes similar to the GG1 at Washington?   Need not necesserily have a disaster as result.

Dave, apparetly none of our contributors knows of another specific incidence. Can you pose another question?

[daveklepper]

Johnny, you have just asked the next question.   I'll try to remember a similar incident but at the present time, I don't know of any.   I think there were some freight loss-of-brakes incidents posted, and a similar thing can occur with a conventional streetcar, when ballast hits the release or escape valve on the underfloor air tank of a conventional straight-air streetcar airbrake system.  On one occasion at the trolley musuem where I was a regular motorman, this did happen on an open car, and I stopped the car to avoid an accident by throwing the reverse key, when I realized the car had no airbrakes.  On a safety car, the loss of pressure in the airtank would throw the car into emergency braking before all the air escaped, but this old open car was just straight airbrakes.   So, anyone know of an incident of loss of brakes similar to the GG1 at Washington?   Need not necesserily have a disaster as result.

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

The investigation evenually concluded it must have been ballast kicked up from the roadbed, because there had been perfectly satisfactory brake applications where speed restriction required them after leaving the Baltimore station, and there was no New Carrolton at the time, the train was scheduled non-stop Baltimore - Washington.   Apparenly, the train did run through a section of track under maintenance where the tamping process had not been completed after installation of new ties or rail or whatever.

 If the concensus is that I should ask the next question, I will do so, but another candidate might have one ready right now, while I have to think a day or so.

Thanks, Dave. I did not remember seeing that cause posited. Does anyone know of another such instance?

[daveklepper]

The investigation evenually concluded it must have been ballast kicked up from the roadbed, because there had been perfectly satisfactory brake applications where speed restriction required them after leaving the Baltimore station, and there was no New Carrolton at the time, the train was scheduled non-stop Baltimore - Washington.   Apparenly, the train did run through a section of track under maintenance where the tamping process had not been completed after installation of new ties or rail or whatever.

 If the concensus is that I should ask the next question, I will do so, but another candidate might have one ready right now, while I have to think a day or so.

[Deggesty]

Why could not the engineer stop the train? An anglecock in the brake line had been closed--where and by whom could not be determined.

[al-in-chgo]

narig01

al-in-chgo

Good info from all.  Who can tell us what advance notice the terminal got that they had a train coming in that couldn't stop, and from what source?   -  al 

WAG The train announcer?    (Al if in the odd chance I'm right please pass it on to someone else.

Thx IGN

A good guess, but I am told someone on duty at the tower noticed the train moving at above speed (and with its horn blasting) and telephoned -- regular hard-line telephoned -- the station master.  Fortunately, only a few people had to be hustle out of that waiting area. 

I would say Daveklepper gets the win but if he chooses not to post the next question any of you other gents who contributed can have a shot at it.   -   allen

 

 

[narig01]

al-in-chgo

Good info from all.  Who can tell us what advance notice the terminal got that they had a train coming in that couldn't stop, and from what source?   -  al 

WAG The train announcer?    (Al if in the odd chance I'm right please pass it on to someone else.

Thx IGN

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

There was not time enough to remove the GG1 before the large influx of passengers arriving in Washington for the inaguartion so a temporary wooden floor was built over the motor and the concourse remained open to passengers. It was not until after the inaguaration when passenger volumes returned to normal that the GG1 was lifted out of the basement, re-railed, and permanent repairs made to the station concourse

No, the writer of the article in Trains about this event quoted someone as saying that the baggage check for the locomotive (it fell into the baggage room) was lost, and it took that long to find it.

When I was in Washington the following June, it was easy to see where the repairs had been made, and I think that I saw the spot aganin again in the fall of 1967. I'm not really sure about what I saw in the summer of 1974. All trace is, of course, now gone.

Another quip about the event mentioned an explosion at a power plant about the same time, and referred to the "scorched earth" policy of the departing Democrats.

The article in Trains gave a full account of the event, including the immediate cause of the failure to stop the train with the brakes.

[al-in-chgo]

KCSfan

Dave has already described what happened and correctly mentioned there were no fatalities and only minor injuries which were probably sustained mostly by passengers who had left their seats and were preparing to disembark. The event took place a few days prior to Dwight Eisenhower's presidential inaguration.

The train had slowed appreciably and was not moving very fast when the GG1 went through the bumping post and wound up in the basement of the station. There was not time enough to remove the GG1 before the large influx of passengers arriving in Washington for the inaguartion so a temporary wooden floor was built over the motor and the concourse remained open to passengers. It was not until after the inaguaration when passenger volumes returned to normal that the GG1 was lifted out of the basement, re-railed, and permanent repairs made to the station concourse.

Mark

 

Good info from all.  Who can tell us what advance notice the terminal got that they had a train coming in that couldn't stop, and from what source?   -  al 

 

[KCSfan]

Dave has already described what happened and correctly mentioned there were no fatalities and only minor injuries which were probably sustained mostly by passengers who had left their seats and were preparing to disembark. The event took place a few days prior to Dwight Eisenhower's presidential inaguration.

The train had slowed appreciably and was not moving very fast when the GG1 went through the bumping post and wound up in the basement of the station. There was not time enough to remove the GG1 before the large influx of passengers arriving in Washington for the inaguartion so a temporary wooden floor was built over the motor and the concourse remained open to passengers. It was not until after the inaguaration when passenger volumes returned to normal that the GG1 was lifted out of the basement, re-railed, and permanent repairs made to the station concourse.

Mark

[wanswheel]

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/U1215047INP.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B12475df5-349a-4c5a-b8eb-16de8cfb210a%7D

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/BE067434.jpg?size=67&uid=%7Ba01806e6-6b5c-4d3e-8ca8-900cdbf1441a%7D

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/U1017765ACME.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B7f32e261-1153-40f5-9384-0dbcd822426e%7D

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/U1215163INP.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B7c001776-12a8-4f7e-bcdb-cb7ce576044b%7D

President-elect and Mrs. Eisenhower on a train from New York to Washington on Jan. 18, 1953.

[daveklepper]

Good question.   Remember the event.   Ballast kicked up from the roadbed closed an angle **** probably just in front of the first coach, thus separating the train air-brake line from the locomotive, so brakes were only effective on the locomotive.   GG-1 and train ran through bumping post into the main concourse through the wall, and the floor of the concourse could not support the GG-1, so the front fell into the basement.   No fatalities and relatively minor injuries.   GG-1 cut up into pieces and removed and then reassembled and put back to work.   Someone else can add the additonal information you requested and can have the honor of asking the next question.