KCSfan al-in-chgo 1. Sorry -- Don't remember. 2. I think it was Jackson, MS to Chicago - IC's old "steam line" station that no longer exists. Reason: African-Americans were leaving the south to go north in search of jobs, but little or no return traffic was generated. Believe the passenger cars were deadheaded back; none of the SB coaches were in revenue service. g'day! - al Al, Since Bob has lateralled the ball I think you should ask the next question. You were the first to reply, got one of the terminals correct, mentioned the trains equipment was deadheaded back to its starting point and were on the mark with the reason it ran only northbound. So take it away Al. Mark
al-in-chgo 1. Sorry -- Don't remember. 2. I think it was Jackson, MS to Chicago - IC's old "steam line" station that no longer exists. Reason: African-Americans were leaving the south to go north in search of jobs, but little or no return traffic was generated. Believe the passenger cars were deadheaded back; none of the SB coaches were in revenue service. g'day! - al
1. Sorry -- Don't remember.
2. I think it was Jackson, MS to Chicago - IC's old "steam line" station that no longer exists.
Reason: African-Americans were leaving the south to go north in search of jobs, but little or no return traffic was generated. Believe the passenger cars were deadheaded back; none of the SB coaches were in revenue service.
g'day! - al
Al,
Since Bob has lateralled the ball I think you should ask the next question.
You were the first to reply, got one of the terminals correct, mentioned the trains equipment was deadheaded back to its starting point and were on the mark with the reason it ran only northbound. So take it away Al.
Mark
Thanks, Mark, glad to oblige!
I'm going to make this next question open-ended: Describe the collision of a GG-1 motor hauling a passenger train at speed into Union Station (DC) in the winter of 1953. Specifics as well as damages and casualties (if any) will win the question. You might also point out that the accident took place shortly before an important, previously scheduled national event. - Have fun! . Al
KCSfanI don't know if No.25 ever carried sleepers. My 1937 OG shows it running both south and north (No. 26) as an all coach train named the Fast Mail. At that time the Creole ran in both directions and was numbered train 1 and 2. I can't readily lay hands on my 1946 OG, but believe it was shortly after WW2 that the Creole became No. 8 running only northbound and the Fast Mail became the Southern Express running only southbound.
Johnny
Mark, others contributed more to this discussion than I did. I simply came up with a name, mostly based on the last clue you gave.
I can come up with a question, but I think probably someone else should, based on my minimal contribution.
Bob
AWP290 You must be thinking of the Creole, as it was northbound onlyunder that name. Its southbound counterpart was No. 25, the Southern Express, even though the Express carried coaches only by 1958. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
You must be thinking of the Creole, as it was northbound onlyunder that name. Its southbound counterpart was No. 25, the Southern Express, even though the Express carried coaches only by 1958.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
No.8, the Creole is the right train Bob. You get the cigar and get to ask the next question.
No. 8 carried a New Orleans to Memphis sleeper and picked up a cafe-lounge car in Champaign for the final leg of its run into Chicago. Other than this it was all coach in the 50's. Its consist was deadheaded back to New Orleans as No.25, the Southern Express, an all stops (south of Champaign) local mail and express train. A single coach was open basically as a rider coach for No. 25's train crew but open to any passenger unfortunate enough to have to ride No. 25.
While a student at the Univ of Ill in the '50's I often rode the Creole on Friday evenings from Champaign to Homewood. The cafe-lounge car was famous for its apple pie which was baked on-board. It was served hot from the oven and when topped with a scoop of ice cream or a wedge of cheddar on the side was truly fit for a king.
I don't know if No.25 ever carried sleepers. My 1937 OG shows it running both south and north (No. 26) as an all coach train named the Fast Mail. At that time the Creole ran in both directions and was numbered train 1 and 2. I can't readily lay hands on my 1946 OG, but believe it was shortly after WW2 that the Creole became No. 8 running only northbound and the Fast Mail became the Southern Express running only southbound.
Yes indeed, the train ran only northbound from New Orleans to Chicago.
Here's a hint to get this thread moving again. The name of the train was the same as that of a people of south Louisiana who were of mixed ethnicity and their style of cuisine as well.
Thanks for the correction!
I would imagine that any northbound-only train for the purpose intended ran all the way from New Orleans to Chicago and not from some intermediate point like Jackson or Memphis.
But I don't have a clue to its name!
daveklepper The above seems a logial answer. But did not the IC run a train labeled The City of St. Louis that handled cars off the Seminol and the City of Miami (the latter every second or third day), with the southbound cars going on trains named for the main-line connections?
The above seems a logial answer. But did not the IC run a train labeled The City of St. Louis that handled cars off the Seminol and the City of Miami (the latter every second or third day), with the southbound cars going on trains named for the main-line connections?
Dave,
The IC did not operate a train named the City of St. Louis. I believe you are thinking of the Wabash/UP streamliner of that name which ran between St. Louis and California.
Johnny has explained the IC's connecting train service to Carbondale where the through coaches and sleepers from/to St. Louis were added to/taken off the IC's major trains that served the South.
Chicago was one terminal but the other was not Jackson but another city
True, the passenger cars were deadheaded back from Chicago to the train's origin. What about the headend cars and the Cafe/Lounge car? I'm looking for a little more detail on how all this was handled.
Still looking for the name of the train.
You are right as to the reason for this train. The IC carried a greater number of passengers northbound than soubound due to the migration of Blacks from the rural south to Chicago and other northern cities.
The Seminole always left Chicago in the pm, and arrived in the am.
Thanks Dave for passing the next question to me. Sorry to take so long but here it is.
In the 1950's the Illinois Central had a main line name train that ran in one direction only.
1. What was the name of this train and between cities did it operate?
2. How was its consist returned to its origin?
While not a part of the question, does anyone know the reason for this uni-directional train?
I will be glad to give Mark the opportunity. I had seen the sign for the train at the Memphis Station, as well as the Budd car itself, but forgot the name over the past 52 years.
KCSfan Johnny, It was the Choctaw Rockette which ran between Memphis and Amarillo. Mark ,
Johnny,
It was the Choctaw Rockette which ran between Memphis and Amarillo.
,
daveklepper The RDC running west from Memphis to Tucamcari? (Or wherever)
The RDC running west from Memphis to Tucamcari? (Or wherever)
DeggestyGive me a little time, and I will propound a question.
Of course in the diesel era, N&W had cars from the Wabash and Nickle Plate to supplement its own new-bought lightweight equipment, but I wonder if they ever bought any rebuilt PRR P-70's?
All I can say is that that night I had trouble sleeping. Most of the nights (give an hour and I will count them up) I spent in coaches were not bad, but this one left me considering sleeping in the roomette I rode in from Roanoke to Bristol.
Give me a little time, and I will propound a question.
Why was your night on 15 miserable? I had a number of overnight coach trips, and most were not miserable. Those that were:
Full coach and unpleasant seat mate (too fat, noisy, drunk, etc.)
Fault with the equipment (flat wheel(s), air conditioning or heating not working, seat near end of car, with a vestibule or train door that would not close automatically and thus allow lots of noise into the car, seat that would not recline)
Hungry and no food available
What do you remember about your problem and you can ask the next question.
daveklepperI guess I took the date of the end of Powattan Arrow's operation as a daytime train to be the end of the use of that name. Apologies for the error. Johnny, when you rode the train, what was the mix of heavyweight (if any) and lightweight (if any) passenger equpment. Did you ride coach or Pullman, and what were the specific cars like?
Dave, I do not remember any car specifically except the dome car (ex-Wabash) and the diner (the only cars I rode on that train). As to sleepers, I do not remember what year sleepers were removed entirely from the Cavalier (which was overnight between Norfolk and Roanoke and day between Roanoke and Cincinnati), but they were gone before '66; I spent a miserable night on #15 from Petersburg to Roanoke in September of '66. Also, I do not remember just when 15 & 16 were cut off entirely and the Powhatan Arrow was re-scheduled to leave Norfolk late at night and arrive early in the morning. I would say that the N&W was getting the most use out of its newer cars by 1969.
As to Canadian steam-powered streamlined trains, it seems that none of our fellow posters has any definite information as to the last run. Granted, I should have acknowledged my lack of such information in my first response to your question.
I guess I took the date of the end of Powattan Arrow's operation as a daytime train to be the end of the use of that name. Apologies for the error. Johnny, when you rode the train, what was the mix of heavyweight (if any) and lightweight (if any) passenger equpment. Did you ride coach or Pullman, and what were the specific cars like?
I remember the Pullman built coaches for the Powattan Arrow as pretty similar inside to the typical NYCentral long-distance coach and the many rebuilt P-70 PRR long-distance coaches rebuilt with low arch rooves and picture window and only one vestibule and reclining seats, but not as comfortable, for sleeping, as the Juniata-built 44-seat coaches or the typical Santa Fe and UP long-distance coaches. They certainly looked great outside.
DeggestyI believe that we may safely say that the two Norfolk-Cincinnati trains were no longer streamlined by the end of the summer in 1959.
daveklepperPossibly a Birney ran in SF on loan during the first "Trolley Festival" when the cable system was shut down for rebuilding, but I am not aware of any single-truck Birney's in regular operation either for MUNI or Market Street Railway. Perhaps MSR had one or two for testing. If I am mistaken, please give me the details. I'll go back and check the Cox Book
Possibly a Birney ran in SF on loan during the first "Trolley Festival" when the cable system was shut down for rebuilding, but I am not aware of any single-truck Birney's in regular operation either for MUNI or Market Street Railway. Perhaps MSR had one or two for testing. If I am mistaken, please give me the details.
I'll go back and check the Cox Book
Their are some pics of SN 62 in SF on Market St at the museum.
Rgds IGN
I have at last been able to look at the Trains magazines in 1958-59, and have some more information about the end of steam passenger operation. Sad to say, I found little detail as to exact dates.
The March, 1958, issue reported that Southern diesels were running through between Washington and the southern destinations.
The September, 1958 issue reported that diesels began replacing J’s July 16, 1958, but no date is reported for the final replacement.
In the April, 1958, issue it was reported the Powhatan Arrow had lost its observation car.
The June, 1958, issue reported that the Powhatan Arrow was still in steam.
As to the demise of the Powhatan Arrow, I rode the train with that name from Cincinnati to Norfolk in the spring of 1969. By then it was an overnight train between Roanoke and Norfolk. I do not remember just when the N&W received permission to drop this train entirely and equip the Pocohontas with the dome cars that had been carried on the Arrow (I rode overnight from Roanoke to Cincinnati in October of 1969, making use of the dome car part of the way).
I believe that we may safely say that the two Norfolk-Cincinnati trains were no longer streamlined by the end of the summer in 1959.
I stand corrected on the date of motive power change on the SR trains.
According to his listing in Who's Who in Railroading (1959 edition), Stuart Saunders became president of the N&W on April 1, 1958. I would assume that this information is accurate as it is generally supplied by the individual or his staff.
The N&W dieselized most, if not all, other passenger service with the lease of four E-8's from RF&P and eight E's ("2000 HP", according to September 1958 Trains) but no model given. I've seen photos of E-7's in this service, lettered N&W, no less, but no photos of any E-6's, so I assume (dangerous word) that they were all E-7's.
Given the lead time on the magazine, one can figure on a D-date on N&W passenger trains of about May or June, or shortly after Mr.s Saunders' ascent to the presidency.
In 1949 Pullman delivered a complete coach streamliner, two sets of equpment, to the N&W, with diner, combine, and round-end observation. The Powattan Arrow. It was the last streamlined steam-hauled streamliner, following after the Readings Cursader. It was a daily Norfolk-Cincinnati train. It came off well before dieselization and way before Amtrak, possibly around 1954. Its equipment was immediately shifted to the Pocahuntas, makling that a streamlined train, because Pullman had already substitute some newer lightwieght sleepers for the heavyweights that were regularly assigned, or possibly this may have come a few years later. Even the N&W car assigned opposite the PRR car on the Penn Station - Roanoke line was lightweight. By 1958 the Pocahuntas was really a streamlined train, with heavyweights added for peak periods only, which was typical of many streamliners.
January 1958 seems to be a reasonable estimate for the last regular use of J's on the Poke.
Anyone got data on date for the CN and CP?
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