When the SP streamlined the Cascade in 1950 they assigned A-B-B E7 units developing 6,000 hp and within two months found they were incapable of maintaining the schedule between Oakland and Portland. They replaced the EMDs with A-B-A sets of postwar Alcos also developing 6,000 hp. The Alcos had no trouble maintaining the schedule on the mountainous run due to dynamic brakes and the higher capacity traction motors.
Al - in - Stockton
Dave, I'll give it to you for the first part of No. 1.
When I was with the Southern, about 40 years ago - has it been that long? - J. P. Hoffman, a mechanical engineer and draftsman, told me, "If you want to hear an old Southern Railway mechanical departman man cuss, mention the Alco passenger units!"
Pete said that the units were shifted to the Cinci-Jax run so that they could be pulled off the train in Atlanta and repaired at Pegram Shop, their maintenence base. The unit(s) in question would be replaced with another set of freshly shopped units and these would be replaced on the northbound run and repaired, as by then something on at least one of these units had gone bad.
This was not scheduled maintenence, but repairing things that simply did not work. The units were supposed to make a complete run before servicing, but, according to Pete, rarely made the full circuit.
I cannot explain why the Southern had such a bad experience with the Alco passenger cabs while other roads - GM&O, SP, et al - loved them.
Over to you, Dave.
Bob Hanson
1. More time for servicing, less demanding schedule.
2. Problems do not affect the flagship performers but instead affect passenger trains lees important to the railroad's image.
3. Problems do not affect the most demanding freight service using the same tracks.
4. Tmetables and publicity feature EMD power, so the most important pasenger trains should use EMS power.
No, that's not the reason - or at least the reason I was given, even though that may be true.
Hint: These units were not held in high esteem on the Southern. In fact, internal correspondence that has fairly recently come to light is quoted in the SRHS magazine as saying, "We made a terrible mistake in buying these engines!" (In this case, the DL-109's.)
They were better mountain haulers, higher tractive effort, than equivalent EMD E-units of the time. Proof? The New Haven used both types of Alcoes as dual-service locomotives, passenger trains on the Shore Line by day, frieghts at night. The Cincinnati - Jacksonville route had steeper grades than Washington - Atlanta - New Orleans or the Bristol - Memphis. The reason for the greater tractive effort over a longer period is that the GE traction motors could withstand higher tempertures longer than the EMD traction motors at that time.
The source of my information was Mallory Hope Ferrell's Silver San Juan. I haven't read it in a while, so I don't recall the precise figure (if he gave one) but it was in that neighborhood. And you're right - Beebe was not a really good researcher. Anything I read in Beebe I check somehwere else before citing it as fact.
Now for my question:
On Southern Railway, the Alco passenger units (DL-109's and later PA's) early in their lives were used primarily on the Tennessean and other trains on the Bristol-Memphis route. They very quickly migrated to the Cincinnati-Jacksonville route and were regularly used on the Ponce de Leon and the Royal Palm and other trains on this route.
What was the reason for this route shift?
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
Just wanted to say thanks for an excellent question and the quick and accurate answer.
AWP290 The railroad was the Rio Grande Southern. The amount was in the $60-65,000 range (don't know the exact figure.) The reason - highly classified - was that this road was materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb. The Desense Supplies Corporation, a subsidiary of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, purchased most, if not all, of the equipment and leased it back to the railroad as a way to raise cash. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
The railroad was the Rio Grande Southern.
The amount was in the $60-65,000 range (don't know the exact figure.)
The reason - highly classified - was that this road was materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb. The Desense Supplies Corporation, a subsidiary of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, purchased most, if not all, of the equipment and leased it back to the railroad as a way to raise cash.
Wow, I'm impressed. I thought this question was obscure enough to go unanswered for a few days and Bob gets it in a matter of hours.
Indeed the RGS at the time was the only means of transporting the uranium bearing ore needed for the Manhattan Project from where it was mined in Colorado. It's hard to imagine that the material for the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima began its journey over the same slim gauge rails of the lowly RGS that were traversed by the Galloping Geese.
I had in mind a lower amount ( $10,000) than what you posted as the payment to the RGS. My info came from one of Lucius Beebe's books which I remember reading a long time ago. Though he was a masterful photographer, Beebe did little research and was not a reliable souce of such information. The $60-65,000 which you cite seems more in line with what I would expect was required to keep the RGS afloat and I'll accept your figures as being more realistic than was Beebe's.
Shoot us another question, Bob.
Mark
Oops! I think faster than I can type.
The road was hauling out materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb.
Somehow my thoughts got scrambled in the translation on the keyboard.
On to the next question which is a three parter.
1. What was the railroad?
3. What was the specific reason the government wanted it to remain in operation
The answers I was looking for were, indeed, the smaller tender, eight-wheeled, and the smaller driver diameter. Close look required for the photographs, but differences in the driver diameter very obvious when standing next to the locomotives. So, Mark, go ahead and ask the next question.
But more on the Inland Route vs. the Shore LIne:
If I bought a ticket to Boston at Grand Central Teminal, and my plans changed, requiring a stop over in Springfield, I would not need to change the ticket. I would board a New Haven Springfield train, possibly one through over the B&A (NYC) to Boston, or possibly through to New Hampshire and Vermont Points via the B&M, and the conductor would mark it "off at Springfield" over his signature and number, and I could then use that New Haven ticket on any Springfield - Boston train except the New England States.
Both the Central and the New Haven were committed to having a certain number of air-conditioned coaches on the Inland Route trains. The Central complied by air-conditioning heavyweight long distance coaches, but the New Haven furnished "American Flyers", the 1934-35 lightweights in the 8200 and 8300 series.
I always thought dining car food and sevice on the New Haven to be very fine. But there were those who preferred New York Central diners and knew which Inland Route trains carried them and used them between Boston and New York instead of the New Haven direct service via the Shore Line.
The erosion of this service began in winter 1949-1950, when the NYC began using Budd cars for most Boston - Springield schedules while the New Haven continued locomotive hauled trains from Springfield to New Haven and New York. About two through trains continued up through about 1962 and perhaps later. It did not last until Amtrak, but Amtrak revived it for a period with a Boston - New Haven round-trip via Springfield. Didn't last long. Used the Roger Williams RDC equipment at times.
KCSfan Dave, I'm pretty sure the J2a's had smaller diameter drivers than those of the other NYC System Class J's. This enabled them to handle heavier trains than the higher driver Hudsons could over the grades found on the B&A route through the Berkshires. I think this is the other difference you were looking for though it would be hard to spot unless you had seen a J2a alongside another of the J Classes in real life or a photo. If you confirm this completes the answer to your question I'll post a new one. Mark
Dave,
I'm pretty sure the J2a's had smaller diameter drivers than those of the other NYC System Class J's. This enabled them to handle heavier trains than the higher driver Hudsons could over the grades found on the B&A route through the Berkshires. I think this is the other difference you were looking for though it would be hard to spot unless you had seen a J2a alongside another of the J Classes in real life or a photo.
If you confirm this completes the answer to your question I'll post a new one.
This is just an elaboration on the above. The B&A J2's had 75 in. drivers vs the 79 in. drivers of the more numerous NYC System J1 and J3 class Hudsons. This gave the J2's a higher tractive effort than that of their other NYC 4-6-4 counterparts.
Finally, a correct answer. I had forgot about the square sand dome. Also, possibly these locomotives, and you have listed the entire J2a series, were built by Lima and not American Locomotive Works? But one important feature is missing and I want you to make the logical guess since you have close to the complete answer . Given the territory the J2a's were designed to serve, what obvious difference in design would you, as Superintendent of Motive Power, make so these locomotives would be better fitted for the territory served? Careful examination of the photos as compared with the J-1a's and J-3a's also will give you the answer. This feature did of course stay with these locomotives when relocated upon the B&A dieselization. So, of course, did the square sand-dome. The 8-wheel small tender, large enough for the Boston-Albany run, the longest the B&A had, was replaced by twelve-wheeled tenders that that had been removed from Mowhaks that had received even larger "coast-to-coast" tenders, and the J2s's then showed up on the Michigan Central.
The J2s's regularly hauled New Haven American Flyer coaches, which left Grand Central Terminal behind a New Haven EP-2 2-6-2 + 2-6-2, or an EP-3 or EP-4 -6 + 6-4, with engine change to a New Haven I-4 4-6-2, then another engine change to a New York Central J-2a Hudson for the final lap from Springfield to Boston. New Haven coaches were regularly seen in the New York Central's Back Bay coach yards (now the site of the Prudential Center), and New York Central coaches were regularly seen in the New Haven portion of the Mott Haven coach yard. The New York - Boston Inland Route, five hours being about the best schedule time.
Please complete the answer AND ask a new question. Thanks!.
Since my last reply I've been surfing a bit and found out the B&A had five J2a Hudsons, nos. 600-604. I located a photo of no. 602 which shows it to have a smalltender with 4-wheel trucks and a square (or rectangular) sand dome. I'm wondering if these are the unique visual features that set these engines apart from other NYC and affiliates Class J's.
Other than GCT fo Harmon the only electrified segments used by NYC (and its affiliates) trains were the Cleveland Union Terminal and the International Tunnel at Detroit. The J2a's would fall into what I'll call the modern steam era and in that time period I'm pretty sure the engines of the Big 4 were lettered NYC not Big 4 or CCC&StL. I'm thinking that at that time B&A and MC engines were lettered Boston & Albany and Michigan Central, respectively. CASO engines could have been lettered Canada Southern at that time too but I'm not at all sure of this.
You have mentioned "foreign" road several times which inclines me to think the J2a's ran on CASO trains from Canada to Detroit. The other possibility tthat comes to mind is that they ran on B&A trains from Boston to Albany and on to Cleveland over the parent NYC. I don't think any MC trains ran through the electrified tunnel at Detroit unless they they were proceeding on into Canada via the CASO.
I realize none of this identifies the unique visual features of the J2a's that you originally asked for but if we can define the roads/routes on which they ran I (or someone else) can possibly find a photo of them which will lead to the answer you are seeking.
Frankly, I am shocked that nobody yet has the answer. On last hint (I hope!)
The New York Central called itself the "Water Level Route," and its J1a and J3a Hudsons were designed to hall heavy trains at high speed on its main lines that met that description.
The J2a's were designed for different territory, and were the companions of famous freight engines also designed for that territory. Both migrated to other parts of the New York Central when the specific territory was one of the first to be completely dieselized. If I remember correctly, the frieght engines did not initially have New York Central on their tenders, but followed the traditional practice for locomotives assigned to that territory.
And the "foreign road" coaches that the J2a's regularly hauled are also famous. Those trains had an electric, then a Pacific, and then a J2a in one dirrection, reversing the order in the other direction. But the J2a's also hauled famous trains that were pure New York Central, but some were the first to pass to Mowhaks when traffic got heavy just before and during WWII. The Mowhaks often ran through, but the J2a's seldem ran outside their territory until dieslization began.
I should have given you enough hints as to just what the J2a's were. I should say some of the trains they hauled, probably not the majority, and this "foreign road" passenger equipment and those were the trains that did see electric power on the head end for part of their schedule, as well as the "freign road" steam power, always a Pacific.
But one more hint. Most of the other steam locomotives and possibly some early diesel switchers also were not lettered Nre York Central or any combination of those letters IN THE TERRITORY THAT T HE J2a's WERE DESIGNED TO SERVE EVEN THOUGH IT WAS DEFINITELY PART OF THE NEW YORK CENTRAL SYSTEM. These Hudsons were the first locomotives to be labeled New York Central in the territory where they were designed to serve. The road diesels were pooled with the rest of the system and were always labeled New York Central, ditto the Mowhaks that began handling increased traffic during WWII. Mowhaks with smaller tenders would fit the turntables in the area, being about the same length as the freight power specific for the territory, but Niagras were a bit too long and never ran where the J2a's were originally assigned.
Improving my memory, possibly there were two coach number decals, one 8202 and one 8303. There should be hits gallore already. Of course, New York Central J-1a's and J-3a's regularly hauled Canadian Pacific cars bettween Harmon and Buffalo on New York - Toronto trains. But J-2s's never did. And under original assignments, J2a's never hauled Canadian Pacific cars, just cars of another "foreign" railroad. And they did not visit Harmon regularly. But they did haul trains that were hauled by electric locomotives for part of their journey.
Buffalo - Toronto trains were often hauled by one of the two TH&B Hudsons which were identacle to NYC J1a's except for the one characteristic that the J2a's usually lost when they were reassigned from their original purpose and location.
The decals supplied with the Hudson kit and probably used on completed models sold had the number: 5318. From the model itself and from the number, the model locomotive was a J-1a. Forget the number of decal for the baggage car, but the coach decals were all 8303. One could, of course, use the decals by gutting and come up with an alternative number for one of the cars, like 8033 or 8330, which would have been prototype. The coaches were green, hand full-length thin skirts, and were of a lightweight prototype. Everything was for two-rail operation. In this train set, the model named the prototype.
The reason the Hudson modeled did not haul the particular train in prototype was because the three-car pasenger train was lettered for a different railroad than the New York Central Hudson. But J2s's did haul those cars frequently and regularly.
Another hint. Rightg after WWII (during, also, when available) one mineature train manufacturer had a train set with a NYC Hudson, a mail-baggage, and two coaches. The Hudson was NOT a J2a. If it had been, there would have a prototype for the train. As it was, the Hudson modeled probably never ran hauling the particular train.
The only Hudsons that received streamlining were J1a's and J3a"s. All the Century and ESE Hudsons were J3a's. None of the J2a's received streamlining. Ever.
Differences in drivers? Close.
I believe the J2a's were assigned to the 20th Century Ltd and possibly other trains such as the Empire State Express. If this is correct they would differ from other NYC Hudsons because of their streamlined shrouds and painted drivers which, IIRC, were either Boxpox or Scullins.
Although there were subclasses and sub-sub classes, there really were only three major classifications of New York Central Hudsons, J1a, J2a, and J3a The J1a and J2a shared some characterstics, and the J1a and J3a others. In what two major visually obvious ways did the J2a differ from both the J1a and J2a and why did it have these two major differences? HInt: one of these very obvious characteristcs was often lost when the J2a lost its original assignment because of dieselization of that assignment and was assigned elsewhere on the NYC system. And I am specifically not referring to lettering or numbering.
AWP290 I was looking for the CofG-specific answer regarding direction being either to or from Savannah. Your answer was in the general area, as each railroad designates railroad direction geographically. The Central, specifically, did not use geographic directions, only whether a train was headed towards or away from Savannah, and that definition was, at times, terribly vague. The Central-specific answer was what I was looking for, i e - to or from Savannah, rather than geographical direction. Close - but in my opinion, no cigar. Bob
I was looking for the CofG-specific answer regarding direction being either to or from Savannah. Your answer was in the general area, as each railroad designates railroad direction geographically. The Central, specifically, did not use geographic directions, only whether a train was headed towards or away from Savannah, and that definition was, at times, terribly vague.
The Central-specific answer was what I was looking for, i e - to or from Savannah, rather than geographical direction.
Close - but in my opinion, no cigar.
Bob
Fair enough.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Then my answer was right, too...the trains changed numbers by timetable direction not actual direction whatever the designated directions were.
Dave hit upon the answer. As London was the center of the universe in England, so was Savannah to the Central of Georgia Railway. Trains going away from Savannah were given odd numbers, those going towards Savannah, even numbers.
A train moving from Atlanta to Macon was deemed to be going towards Savannah and was assigned an even number, as it left Macon for Albany it was moving away from Savannah and received an odd number. So even though the trains never changed geographical direction, they did change railroad direction, or timetable direction.
Go to it, Dave!
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter