DeggestyOvermod, that looks to be of value for a train that made the stops that are listed. Do you have any idea as to when that was effective, and what time of day the train(s) ran?
I know the answers, but I ain't telling. Hint: look a wee bit more carefully at some of the data shown... you will notice something more expected for the PRR in this era than NYC, with one rather pointed exception.
Hints on my question. To cut operating costs for night service during the Depression, the railroad bought two streetcars from a neighboring streetcar comopany and modified these two cars for its own use. The modification included modificaiton of the trucks, but these two converted stretcars had only one type of truck. They could not couple or be used with the regujlar passenger equiipment. The railroad also owned two ferry boats, integral to its operations. The steam locomotive was continuously seen adjacent to the oerhaul shop bujilding and was always visually in good repair.
Much of the right-of-way is active and has been for over half a century. It could be said, though, that it was out of service when most needed.
As a passenger carrier, the railroad faced competition from two other rail passenger carriers for some but not all of the traffic.
There is only one community, one town, that was served by this railroad that is not served by rail transportation today. It does have bus service.
If I am right, the last user of the line in question's passenger equipment was the East Broad Top, the 'one town' in question was on a loop, the ferries ran to a major New England downtown area, and it closed only a couple of years before it would have been highly useful in the WWII years. In my opinion it was electrified astoundingly late, in the latter 1920s.
It also had the largest fleet of Mason Bogie locomotives. But I thought they had four ferries, not two.
From ERJ in 1928:
"Motive power has been provided by replacing one of the old trucks with a new Brill 177-E2 truck equipped with two General Electric 295-A 600-volt railway motors. Because of the narrow gage these motors were especially designed for this installation. They are the four-pole. direct current, commutating pole railway motors for operation with tapped field on 600 volts. The weight of the motor complete with gear, pinion, gear cover, and axle bearing linings, is approximately 2,770 lb."
The other truck, with the drop equalizer, was the one on the car when it was motored.
The Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn motorised their ex-steam coaches a little more conventionally. The Winthrop loop was operated with some converted streetcars (the ones Dave descibed. Of course the steam engine was only for emergency service. Competition from the MTA and Eastern Mass Street Ry, as well as the Boston and Maine. Some of the ROW used for today's "T" Blue Line. Winthrop was the only town with no rail service.
RC will ask the next question, since he named the railroad. But Overmond is correct about how the line was electrified. Why didn't you name the railroad? If you have an answer, let us hear it. Hey, RC, the MTA or MTBA was not around during the "narrow gauge" days. The competion was indeed the B&M and the Eastern Mass until the EM sold its Chelsie Division to the Boston Elevated in 1935 or 1936 and then the cometition was the B&M and the BE. The two ex-Eastern Mass streetcars were in general night service, not restricted to the (westefully double-track) Winthrop Loop. (And you meant "is" not "was" with respect to W not having rail service.) The 0-4-4T was used to heat the shops. There is no record that I know of regarding its actually hauling a train after electrification, but it was run to get maintenance for itself, so it may have been used.
Most of the open-platform wood coaches went to Hawaii and were used intensively during WWII. Some may have gone to the EBT. Are any still there?
Current collection was traditional trolle-pole. Cab location was like open-platform elevated trains in Chicago, Brooklyn, and New York, within the car body. Narrow-gauge construction probably did not save much money, the record shows standard-gauge wood ties were cheaper and thus used.
Most of the RoW is occupied by the MBTA's Blue Line today. The opening of that rapid transit line in 1952 as an extension of the "East Boston Tunnel" meant the end of East Boston, Chelsie, and Revere streetcar service, with trackless and diesel-bus replacement.
Before the sale of the Chelsie Division to the Boston Elevated, Eastern Mass streetcars with comfortable leather seats ran from Brattle Loop (now Government Center Station, Scolley Square), to Lynn as well as Revere and Chelsie. In Boston Elevated days, all streetcars fed the rapid transit at MaverickStation, and Eastern Mass buses provided the replacement service north of Revere to Lynn, still competing with the regular B&M steam commuter service and the narrow gauge and its ferry connection to Boston, abandoned in 1940. It would have prospered in WWII.
daveklepperWhy didn't you name the railroad?
I have more fun answering than posing questions. And most of the ones I do pose don't hold a candle to the ones the masters here can ask.
Some may have gone to the EBT. Are any still there?
That was actually the second thing that guided me to the BRV&L. Supposedly there may be as many as three surviving coaches there; I'm not much of a narrow-gauge fan so you should ask an East Broad Top person about this.
In addition to its fleet of well-proportioned wooden and steel cars used in fast mainline service, this electric railroad also had some wooden coaches used as trailers which were bought from a nearby railroad for excursion service, and an 1873 flat-roofed open-platform coach which was motorized and used on a branch line.
Good question! Would it be the New York, Westchester and Boston?
NYW&B had all steel cars of Stilwell design. The first cars on the railroad I'm looking for were wood, the last ones before it merged into its final form were steel trailers, some of which were later motorized. Obviously the converted flat-roof coach was purchased used...
I'd tentatively say some predecessor of New Haven (the Nantasket Beach and Berlin branch electrifications coming to mind; what were the details of the East Hartford-Vernon-Melrose electrification?).
As an alternate something involved with the Connecticut Company (which the New Haven controlled) which I believe offered an electric route all the way between New York and Boston at one point in the early 20th Century (when it was commonly thought that light interurban electric railways would be 'the wave of the future' for much passenger transportation).
I'm looking forward to Dave Klepper's answer to this question.
The line was considered an interurban. The converted combine could run over the entire line, even though it probably never did. It's better known under its later name than its original and last pre-merger names.
It is definitely one of the constituants of either the Indiana Railroad or the Cincinnati and Lake Erie. My guess is that it is Union Traction of Indiana, but Indiana Public Service, and Terra Hauat and Eastern are also possibilities, although I will stick with Union Traction. Idid know about motorizing steel trailers but not about the open-platform conversion. Was the cab s corner within the body, like open-platform "El" and "L" cars?
You're still way too far east. While IRR did have lots of interesting equipment, some of it acquired used, its clearances and curve radii did not allow the use of steam road equipment. While this particular interurban did have some street running at both ends of its line, most of it was on private ROW. The later merger that gave it its more familiar name was end-to-end, not a mesh like the Indiana Railroad.
The steam road coaches that were used for excursions were made excess when the steam road electrified its suburban operations. There was also an ex-PRR open platform coach a long way from home.
The motorized combine did have its control stands inside the carbody a la open platform "L" cars. I have not been able to find if it had a cab or just control stands. After the car was scrapped its motors and controls were reused on a box motor. The car was referred to by a reptilian name, and occasionally handled interchange freight cars as a locomotive. Apparently it wasn't well maintained, as passengers were known to use umbrellas inside it on rainy days.
West Coast then...going to take a flyer on the Sacremento Northern, which I believe went into the Western Pacific fold.
Since I'm leaving town tomorrow for a week with limited access, I'll accept Sacramento Northern in place of Oakland Antioch and Eastern (Later San Francisco-Sacramento before joining the SN fold). The OA&E had wood, composite and steel cars from Holman, Cincinnati and Hall-Scott. In addition, it bought several open-platform wood coaches left over from SP's pre-electric Oakland suburban service for excursion service, to which it applied end gates and in some cases vestibules. The OA&E also bought a PRR duck-bill coach for the same purpose. The motorized combine came from the SP, but was built for the Central Pacific in 1879. It ran on the Danville branch in the Contra Costa hills, and was locally known as the Danville Alligator. The Danville branch was abandoned (by SF-S) in 1924, and the Alligator's motors and controls went into a box motor.
Good question. Glad to learn something new about the SN.
Wow...that is some great stuff there Redrye. Fascinating..what we could spend a day there to observe the way it was.
Nobody seems to have responded to certain interesting details about the question I posted back on the 30th. Let me bump it here to see if anyone has interest:
All you Official Guide junkies, have a look at this published timetable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/112832503@N07/27393009344/in/dateposted-public/
Who can tell me the details about it, including the rolling stock?
Just wondering if its less than 50 years old. Looks like some of the test runs for the Rohr Turboliners in the 1970s.
It barely squeaks in under (or rather, over) the limit. (When it was prepared).
And if you had told me there would come a day when it was half a century gone, and we still didn't have service that fast to Buffalo, I'm not sure I would have believed it could ever be.
Overmod Nobody seems to have responded to certain interesting details about the question I posted back on the 30th. Let me bump it here to see if anyone has interest: All you Official Guide junkies, have a look at this published timetable: https://www.flickr.com/photos/112832503@N07/27393009344/in/dateposted-public/ Who can tell me the details about it, including the rolling stock?
I'm gonna take a wild guess. Is this a proposed schedule structure for a M 497 jet type train - showing potential speed limits and slow spots for a New York-Buffalo run? Your mentioning of the time frame possibly points to NYC's response to the High Speed Ground Transportation Act of 1965.
ZephyrOverlandI'm gonna take a wild guess. Is this a proposed schedule structure for a M 497 jet type train - showing potential speed limits and slow spots for a New York-Buffalo run?
...And that was the other one I hoped people would suggest.
It's in that time frame, but remember that the M-497 project was about high-speed vehicle research at low cost, not about converting vehicles for actual passenger service.
The speed limits and slow spots were very carefully researched, right down to consulting with some of the towns along the way to determine what speed restrictions they wanted to enforce.
And yes, it's associated with one response to the HSGTA, but one not typically associated with New York Central.
Overmod ZephyrOverland I'm gonna take a wild guess. Is this a proposed schedule structure for a M 497 jet type train - showing potential speed limits and slow spots for a New York-Buffalo run? It's in that time frame, but remember that the M-497 project was about high-speed vehicle research at low cost, not about converting vehicles for actual passenger service. The speed limits and slow spots were very carefully researched, right down to consulting with some of the towns along the way to determine what speed restrictions they wanted to enforce. And yes, it's associated with one response to the HSGTA, but one not typically associated with New York Central.
ZephyrOverland
I'm gonna take a wild guess. Is this a proposed schedule structure for a M 497 jet type train - showing potential speed limits and slow spots for a New York-Buffalo run?
Someone mentioned about the Rohr turbo trains of the 1970's. Would the speed limits and stops pertain instead to a proposed United Aircraft Turbo operation on the NYC, which would better tie in to the time frame of the HSGTA?
By golly, you're guessing, but it's a good guess. This is from an actual presentation made by Sikorski (the reason I took so long putting the 'exhibit' up is that I needed to remove the footer from the page, which contained that information), I think before they started fully promoting the "United Aircraft" name to distinguish themselves from pure helicopter manufacturers.
This was a very careful computer simulation of the route, perhaps the first one I heard of that did this, down to 200 points per mile for achievable speed. As such, it was not the usual 'pie-in-the-sky' high-speed rail proposal we see so often even today: in my opinion it would have been possible to put one of the subsequently-built demonstrators on that route and achieved the timing indicated... had anyone cared about it at that time.
I don't have a 'smoking gun' associating this work with the subsequent use of Turboliners, which is as yet still outside the scope of the quiz ... even the use of demonstrators still is, but won't be much longer. But I strongly suspect that some of the nominal advantages of the Turbotrain, particularly high acceleration without the usually corresponding track forces, might have been instrumental.
Next question to you!
The timing NY-Buffalo, net of all delays and speed restrictions, was 4 hours 35 minutes. This was extrapolated (without the rigor of the full 'computer' analysis) to longer runs with the equipment.
I got the link through scribd. The report name is "Turbo Trains for the New York Central"; https://www.scribd.com/document/66216548/Turbo-Trains-for-the-New-York-Central-092767
While it is not yet within the scope of the quiz restrictions, some people reading this report might enjoy the follow-on assessment from SNCF in 1985, about the speedup made in part of this corridor by the Turboliners.
A couple of months ago someone was selling a similiar document on eBay, but as a proposal to the Illinois Central. Included in this document was some color renderings of UA Turbos in a proposed IC livery.
As for the question:
A long, long time ago, passengers who were planning to take SP's Sunset Limited in San Francisco and expecting to detrain in New Orleans ended up traveling to Chicago instead.
When did this happen and for how long?
Why did this happen?
What was the routing?
My guess would be that this happened around 1900, when the Gulf Coast was ravaged by the hurricane that destroyed Galveston. The Sunset would have followed its usual route to L.A. via the recently opened Coast Line and then the classic Sunset route to El Paso. From there the cars were most likely handled via EP&SW/CRI&P via Tucumcari. The "service disruption" lasted more than a month - the longest period since the early 1890s that the "Sunset" was cancelled (at least west of New Orleans).
rcdrye My guess would be that this happened around 1900, when the Gulf Coast was ravaged by the hurricane that destroyed Galveston. The Sunset would have followed its usual route to L.A. via the recently opened Coast Line and then the classic Sunset route to El Paso. From there the cars were most likely handled via EP&SW/CRI&P via Tucumcari. The "service disruption" lasted more than a month - the longest period since the early 1890s that the "Sunset" was cancelled (at least west of New Orleans).
Its not a bad guess as:
- its close to the time period I'm looking for...but
- EP&SW/RI was not involved in the reroute.
- At this time the Sunset Limited was a winter season train, running approximately from October through May or June. In essence, the train was still running for the season but just with a different eastern endpoint.
Finally, your assumption that the disruption was caused by a natural disaster is on the right track, but it wasn't a hurricane that caused the Sunset to be rerouted.
ZephyrOverlandA long, long time ago, passengers who were planning to take SP's Sunset Limited in San Francisco and expecting to detrain in New Orleans ended up traveling to Chicago instead. When did this happen and for how long?
Did it have something to do with this?
Not exactly a 'natural' disaster, however...
(That's the only thing I know of that would really, absolutely, positively block off any traffic from SF/LA on the Sunset Route while preventing any trains from running SE. That still inadequately explains why 'Chicago' instead of going across the Overland Route or whatever from Oakland to some intermediate destination with shorter connection distance or trackage rights to New Orleans.)
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