My memories were of the SCL days, after the merger. If the branch came frojm Lakeland, then it was ACL, from Tampa, then SAL. I do remember the baggage compartment. I had a project in Manatee, on the similar branch with similar equipment to Sarasota, I believe, or was it on the Naples branch?
The Champion (West Coast Champion to Tampa and St. Pete, East Coast Cahmpion to Miami) was always an ACL train until SCL. The ACL trains to Florida from the NEC were the two Champions, the Havana, then Gulf Coast Special, and the maid-of-work Everglades and Palmetto. In addition, there was the all-Pullman winter-season-only Florida Special, which had mostly rented sleepers from western railroads. The Seaboard had the Silver Meteor and Silver Star (the Silver Comet ran to Atlanta and Birmingham), the Sunland and the Palmland. I think at one time or another I got to ride all of them. But I am a bit mixed up as to just how I got to Manatee. I think both the Seaboard and the ACL had shovel-faced doodlebugs, as did the Southern. Much of the time, my mother was living in St. Petersburg. My older sister, and my niece her daughter still live in Sarasota.
Just to confuse matters more, a number of years before the merger, the East Coast ACL trains used the Tampa line as far a Auburndale, and then switched to complete the run to Miami on the Seaboard, using the Seaboard's Miami Station, because the Floride East Coast had been struck, and did not resume throiugh passenger service. On one occasion I used the East Coast Champion to Orlando, which had not been possible before the FEC strike. Quite a trip. Work in the Cambridge, MA BBN office kept me too long, and I did not have time to catch the NYNH&H-PRR connection for the ECC, with the ticketed connection in Washington, not Penn. Sta., NYC. So I eneded up flying Eastern to National Airport and boarded at Alexandria, after a taxi ride.
I guess I am supposed to ask the next question, so here goes. The D&RGW Denver - Salt Lake City line is generally thought of as a single-track line with CTC-controlled passing sidings, and generally that is a good description. I do not know the present state, but for a considerable distance it gave the impression of being and was operated as a triple-tracked line. Where, how, and why?
Dave, apparently Bradenton was the station for Manatee--so you could have used either road to reach the place.
It was in 1963 that the FEC was struck. After the ACL-SAL merger, in general, the Miami trains that came down from Richmond on the ACL continued on the ACL track as far as Auburndale, where they moved onto the SAL track to get to Miami. The South Wind and City of Miami followed the same route from Jacksonville, with the train crews running all the way Jacksonville-Miami.
I rode the FEC from West Palm Beach to Jacksonville in '67, and missed my planned train to Washington because someone had set a signal at stop and left it there.
Johnny
daveklepper My memories were of the SCL days, after the merger. If the branch came frojm Lakeland, then it was ACL, from Tampa, then SAL. I do remember the baggage compartment. I had a project in Manatee, on the similar branch with similar equipment to Sarasota, I believe, or was it on the Naples branch? The Champion (West Coast Champion to Tampa and St. Pete, East Coast Cahmpion to Miami) was always an ACL train until SCL. The ACL trains to Florida from the NEC were the two Champions, the Havana, then Gulf Coast Special, and the maid-of-work Everglades and Palmetto. In addition, there was the all-Pullman winter-season-only Florida Special, which had mostly rented sleepers from western railroads. The Seaboard had the Silver Meteor and Silver Star (the Silver Comet ran to Atlanta and Birmingham), the Sunland and the Palmland. I think at one time or another I got to ride all of them. But I am a bit mixed up as to just how I got to Manatee. I think both the Seaboard and the ACL had shovel-faced doodlebugs, as did the Southern. Much of the time, my mother was living in St. Petersburg. My older sister, and my niece her daughter still live in Sarasota. Just to confuse matters more, a number of years before the merger, the East Coast ACL trains used the Tampa line as far a Auburndale, and then switched to complete the run to Miami on the Seaboard, using the Seaboard's Miami Station, because the Floride East Coast had been struck, and did not resume throiugh passenger service. On one occasion I used the East Coast Champion to Orlando, which had not been possible before the FEC strike. Quite a trip. Work in the Cambridge, MA BBN office kept me too long, and I did not have time to catch the NYNH&H-PRR connection for the ECC, with the ticketed connection in Washington, not Penn. Sta., NYC. So I eneded up flying Eastern to National Airport and boarded at Alexandria, after a taxi ride. I guess I am supposed to ask the next question, so here goes. The D&RGW Denver - Salt Lake City line is generally thought of as a single-track line with CTC-controlled passing sidings, and generally that is a good description. I do not know the present state, but for a considerable distance it gave the impression of being and was operated as a triple-tracked line. Where, how, and why?
All of the mentioned shovelnoses were built by St. Louis Car.
You are correct, except not all the way to Salt Lake City, not even as far as Provo. Utah Junction is one end point, and you should be able to find the other.
Talk about return of memory. I first saw the SAL shovelnoses in St. Pete, before the SCL merger. They were on the connecting Sarasota train for the Silver Meteor or Star. Then when I went to Manatee, they were on the ex-ACL Naples train from to and from Lakelalnd, now run by SCL.
Dave, I am sorry, but I am not able to determine the western end of the track that you described.
I will propound a question. From a 1945 Guide: In the section giving the equipment of Southern passenger trains, all but one train are referred to by numbers only. The exception has also the direction of operation; why was it expedient to give not only the number but also the direction of operation?
My memory is that three tracks were available, one actually owned by Utah RR as you noted but dispatched and CTC controlled by D&RGW (if sitll existing by UP today) between Utah Jc. and the west end of Summit. I was hopinig you might have later infomration, and possibly anyone who has traveld today's operaton can report.
I assume the train was the Crescent,and certain through sleepers iinterchanged with other trains, such as Ashville-NY, or pickup-and-drop sleepers such as a Charlotte - New York sleeper awere handled in one direction, returning on another train such as the Piedfmont Ltd.
Dave, the Microsoft Bing map of the area shows only two tracks west from Utah Ry Junction. I do not doubt that at one time the Utah Ry had its track right by the Rio Grande's track.
No, it was not the Crescent, which at that time did not have any cars that were branched off on other Southern lines, and all cars ran the same, both north and south; there were Washington-Atlanta/New Orleans cars. It was another train (which did add a sleeper that came from another origin) that had the directions shown in the equipment description section.
Pretty sure there were three at one time. Might show up as a wider RoW on a Google airview if you have access. Anyway, you did get the answer. Helpers were used in steam days on both railroads, and the extra capacity was useful for light jovement returns. Thus the double track Helper- Provo.
Hard to know which Southern train you are refering to, possibly the Aiken=Augusta Special, the Piedmont, the Pelican, the Tennesian?
No, Dave; noe of your guesses fits the bill. The train did run through one of the cities served by one you named, and ran to/from a city served by another one you named (which had no name in November of 1945)..
I'm thinking the train ran Washington-SR-Lynchburg-N&W-Bristol-SR with the car picked off at Knoxville to serve the unnamed destination of Oak Ridge. Special instructions for the car required the "directional" listing. Birmingham Special?
rcdrye I'm thinking the train ran Washington-SR-Lynchburg-N&W-Bristol-SR with the car picked off at Knoxville to serve the unnamed destination of Oak Ridge. Special instructions for the car required the "directional" listing. Birmingham Special?
Must have been one of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains, possibly the Royal Palm. Possibly they had a train that ran every other day or three times a week, and the timetable had to show dates of operation and direction.
Dave, you are gettng close--but it was not a Midwest-Florida train. It had nothing to do with days of operation.
OK,in general railroads in the USA use even numbers for eastbound trains and odd numbers for westbound trains. On the Southern, Seaboard, ACL, this is/was modified for odd southbound and even northbound. I wonder about the Southern's line from Atlanta to Brunzwick, Georgia. I would not know looking at a map as to which direction was assigned even and which odd numbers. And they did have a through sleeper from points farther north to Brunzwick, perhaps Cincinnati or even Chicago. I think it was the last heavywieght sleeper in regular scheduled use on the Southern until replaced by a lightweight.
Possibly the diner or cafe car or buffet lounge may have served dinner in one direction and a breakfast in the other.
Atlanta to Brunswick was southbound.
The last heavy-weight sleeper line was Atlanta-Brunswick; it was not replaced by a lightweight. The type of dining equipment did not enter into the reason (it was the same for both directions; it provided breakfast in one direction and dinner in the other).
At the time, it carried at least one inter-line sleeper and two (not at the same time) connecting line sleepers that ran on the Southern all the way.
The brunswick train was NOT the correct answer?
When I was doing lots of acoustical consulting work in the Southeast, either from the Cembridge office of Bolt Beranek and Newman, 1957 - 1967, an overnight on a sleeper via the Seabord put one into Raleigh about 4 or 5AM. But the Southern had a NY - Raleigh sleeper that went to Greensboro and then northeast to Raleigh, which I used. I suspect what you want is one of the trains that carried this sleeping car.
daveklepper The brunswick train was NOT the correct answer? When I was doing lots of acoustical consulting work in the Southeast, either from the Cembridge office of Bolt Beranek and Newman, 1957 - 1967, an overnight on a sleeper via the Seabord put one into Raleigh about 4 or 5AM. But the Southern had a NY - Raleigh sleeper that went to Greensboro and then northeast to Raleigh, which I used. I suspect what you want is one of the trains that carried this sleeping car.
Skyland Special? No idea why except it's the remaining special in Georgia in 1946.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=660892
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=20108
No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia.
Deggesty No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia.
Deggesty Deggesty No. In 1946, the Aiken-Augusta Special (just barely into Georgia), the Birmingham Special, and this train still ran in Georgia. We have a winner! Until some time after November 1947, the Asheville Special was combined with the Aiken-Augusta Special in Salisbury. Later, the combining took place in Greensboro--after the train had passed through Winston-Salem.
We have a winner! Until some time after November 1947, the Asheville Special was combined with the Aiken-Augusta Special in Salisbury. Later, the combining took place in Greensboro--after the train had passed through Winston-Salem.
Johnny, I meant ‘remaining’ as 'thus far unmentioned,' such as Carolina Special.
Okay, Mike; I misunderstood what you meant. Incidentally, the SOuthen's use of the ACL between Hardeeville, S.C. and Jacksonville was interesting. It actually ran only one passenger train here--but there was switching in Jesup; southbound, two trains came in, and one left on the ACL, and one left on the Southern, for Brusnwick.
The name of the train should be easy to guess now--but, why did the equipment listing also show the direction of each train? Ordinarily, it was deemed necessary to show just the number of each train--such as (name)# 38?
The train was the Kansas City-Florida Special, which the Southern operated between Birmingham and Jacksonville. What was its number as it ran from Birmingham to Jacksonville, and as it ran back to Birmingham?
Eastward 8-7 Westward 8-7 (you can see why it was confusing) changing numbers (at least from the point of view of the public timetable) at Atlanta.
Since timetable direction changed in Atlanta (the Birmingham Division ran west from Atlanta, and the Georgia Division ran south from Chattanooga to Macon (I do not recall what division took the train south from Macon), the train--no matter its origin, came into Atlanta as #8, and left as #7.
So to avoid confusion on the part of ticket agents the train out of Jacksonville was shown as "#8-7 North," and the train out of Birmingham was shown as "#8-7 South."
Some may say that the Carolina Special should also have been shown the same way, since the train came into Oakdale Junction as #27 and left as #28, whether it started in Cincinnati or Charleston--but the listing in this section showed #27-28-22 and #22-27-28, with 22 being the train from Asheville to Goldsboro, and 21-28-27 being the trains back to Cincinnati..
Aren't directional numbers fun?
Rode it from KansasCity to Jacksonville in 1959in a Frisco "Meteor"-labeled sleeper. In Memphis saw the RI Budd for RDC Tucumcari. Also on the train leaving Atlanta was (I think) the heavyweight for Brunzwick. Never bothered to look at the train numbers, however.
So now ask another question!
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