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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:25 AM

This southeastern carrier participated in several Pullman "lines", including some well-known resort trains.  Between some of its largest on-line cities, it operated its own Pullman and ACF sleepers, at least until the late 1920s.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 7:14 AM

The Southern operate interline trains with sleepers to resorts, including midwest - Florida trains such as the Royal Palm, plus pure Southern intercity sleepers betwen Raliegh and Greensboro, Jacksonville and Bermingham, Atlanta and Washington, etc.

Ditto the SAL, with a host of interline NY - Florida trains, but also pure SAL Wilmington - Atlanta, Wilmington - Birmingham, Jacksonville - Miami, Jacksonville - Tampa, Nofolk (forgetting the exact name across the bay, reached by ferry or connecting bus through tunnel) - Jacksonville and - Atlanta (and Birmingham), etc.

Ditto ACL, with its host of NYC - Florida trains, also handling Florida - Midwest fleet and its own Wilmington - Tampa sleeper and possibly some others.

Southern sleepers, about 60% interline (inlcuidng the Crescent) and 40% Southern only.

SAL   About 75% and 25%

ACL   About 85% and 15%

FEC    Did have its own Miami -Jacksonville sleeper until the Depression, sometime in the '30s, othewise all interline.  May have had a Jackisonville - W.Palm Beach setout and pcikup sleeper at one time.   Otherwise all interline.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:46 AM

Southern and ACL runs were all Pullman.  FEC had a limited contract where FEC owned the cars but Pullman operated them. These cars were operated by the railroad.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:17 AM

rcdrye

Southern and ACL runs were all Pullman.  FEC had a limited contract where FEC owned the cars but Pullman operated them. These cars were operated by the railroad.

 

Central of Georgia.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:45 PM

Deggesty
 Central of Georgia.

 

 

CofG was part of several midwest-Florida routes, best known probably being the Seminole/City of Miami route.  On its own Atlanta-Savannah trains CofG preferred to operate its own sleepers.  There were other railroads that operated their own cars but carried Pullmans on joint services.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 5:20 PM

Rob and All:

The SOO operated their own sleepers until the end of their passenger service in 1967, although they carried Pullmans if there were interline movements. I don't know when the CofG ended their own sleepers. After 1958, the NYC and RI withdrew from the Pullman lease, but kept a few cars in said Pullman pool for interline movements.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:12 PM

The last Soo sleepers were actually operated by the Milwaukee Road, which ended Pullman service shortly before the ex-DSS&A Copper Country Limited was dropped.  Earlier Pullman examples included Chicago - Sault Ste Marie, joint with Milwaukee.  Soo also had cars available to the Pullman pool, and regularly borrowed cars from the pool for summer operation, or even regular operation (PRR 10-5's assigned to the Laker).  Of course Soo cars ran on CPR, and vice versa, not under Pullman control.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:19 PM

Please note the date.

The July, 1943, issue of the Guide shows that the Southern interchanged sleepers (an all-coach train was interchanged at one point; ignore this particular interchange) with seven roads at seven points. Name the roads and the points. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 6:33 AM

With no OG handy I come up with these:

Washington DC PRR (various)

Jacksonville FL FEC (Royal Palm etc.)

Cincinnati OH NYC (Royal Palm etc.)

Meridian MS IC (VS&P) (Washington <-> Shreveport)

Lynchburg VA N&W (Washington to Cincinnati)

Atlanta GA A&WP (Crescent)

West Baden IN (Monon) (service to French Lick Springs)

The West Baden interchange might have been done by then, so my alternate is Columbus MS with the Columbus and Greenville.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 7:02 AM

Bristol, TN, Memphis - NY and the third rout New Orleans - NY, the Pelican, all interchanged twice, of course, again at Monroe or Lynchburg. Bermingham, Frisco, Kansas City- Flordia Speicalo, KC - Jacksonville.   Just additions, winner already posted.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 7:49 AM

I really should have allowed Monroe and Bristol in Virginia; I was thinking of indivdual car and not entire train interchanges; that makes nine places and eight roads.

Jacksonville is out; there were no sleepers interchanged there that summer (and that would have added another road--SAL). No interchange with the CI&L, nor with the Mississippi Central; there were no sleepers into Columbus on the Southern.

So, Washington (PRR), Cincinnati (NYC), Meridian (IC), Atlanta (A&WP), and Birmingham (SLSF) are correct. That leaves two places and two roads.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 7:57 AM

Did Sou. interchange a Portsmouth - Ashville sleeper with SAL in  Raleigh?

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:03 PM

No, neither Raleigh nor SAL is in this.

One place is in a large city; the other is in a town.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:06 PM

Harriman TN, Tennessee Central (cars to Nashville)

Chattanooga TN L&N (also cars to Nashville)

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:10 PM

Knoxville-Nashville sleeper was interchanged with the Tennessee Central at Harriman!

One more--who and where?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 8:35 PM

Chattanooga TN L&N (also cars to Nashville)

We went over this a while back on Nashville to Knoxville sleepers.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:18 PM

rcdrye

Chattanooga TN L&N (also cars to Nashville)

We went over this a while back on Nashville to Knoxville sleepers.

 

Sorry, it was not the L&N in 1943, but the NC&StL.Crying As I recall, it was 1957 before the L&N swallowed its subsidiary up--I was in the Union Station and asked for an NC timetable after being given a new L&N TT, and was told that the NC schedules were in the L&N TT.

Yes, the Tennesean carried a Washington-Nashville sleeper, which was moved between the Union Station and the Terminal Station; the interchange in Harriman was also between two stations; all of the other interchanges were made without such a move.

Rob found all but the Sou-SLSF, in Birmingham.  Very good, without using a Guide!

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 21, 2016 8:00 PM

Actually I can't believe I missed Birmingham, since we had your great question about SR trains 7 and 8 about a month ago. Equal wet noodle slap for NC&StL

So... What railroad known primarily as an eastern trunk line with east-west traffic participated in Pullman service to Florida until at least 1957?

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, July 21, 2016 9:01 PM

rcdrye

Actually I can't believe I missed Birmingham, since we had your great question about SR trains 7 and 8 about a month ago. Equal wet noodle slap for NC&StL

So... What railroad known primarily as an eastern trunk line with east-west traffic participated in Pullman service to Florida until at least 1957?

 

 

Of course, the PRR, NYC, and B&O, with interchanges at Louisville and Cincinnati participated in this traffic--and the Wabash also carried a Detroit-Tampa car for the Southland between Detroit and Fort Wayne, with PRR carrying it between there and Cincinnati. I do not think that this lasted until 1957, though.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 22, 2016 5:03 AM

B&O's St. Petersburg car that ran 3 days a week was its last Florida car, discontinued after the 1957/58 winter season.

Your question, Johnny.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, July 22, 2016 8:10 PM

I'll go back a little farther than I had the last two  or three times. In 1893, the World's Fair in  Chicago was the place to go--especially according to the roads serving Chicago from the East, with several sleeper lines especially set up for such traffic.

One unusual route began in a Southern port city, and ran more than 400 miles before entering a major city, from which it ran a little over 300 miles before reaching another major city, and then passed through a state capital on its way to the World's Fair. If you wanted to, you could get off the train within a block or two of the fairgrounds--but you had to go about three miles further find a good hotel.

Wanted: the southern origin, the junctions where the car had to be switched (I count four), and the roads that carried the car (mid-20th century names will be accepted). The route is no longer possible, since it is broken in at least two places.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:24 PM

From the origin to the first point where switching would be required was 357 miles. From there, to the second switching point was 194 miles (this section has been partially abandoned). From there to the first major city was 69 miles. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 25, 2016 6:24 AM

The only thing I come up with that's even close is SP (H&TC) from Galveston to Denison TX, M-K-T to Moberly MO, and Wabash (via Springfield) in the general direction of Chicago. I know this route existed in 1890, not so sure about 1893.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, July 25, 2016 10:45 AM

Oh, Rob, you are way, way too far west. You do have the right track by the Exposition--but the wrong road.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 25, 2016 1:30 PM

The final leg must have been on the IC.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, July 25, 2016 1:48 PM

The final leg was on the IC track--but it was not an IC train.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 25, 2016 2:59 PM

While IC would give Springfield IL, One we moved east I figured the last leg into Chicago is likely Big 4 from Cincinnati, as that would get Indianapolis as a state capital into the bargain.  Using various maps I'm thinking Tampa or St. Petersburg for the southern end, with Atlanta as the first large city. A couple of routings come to mind.  Not so easy picking out the middle pieces.

Now that I think about it, the CH&D/Monon "Great Central" route shared the Chicago and Indiana Western station on 63rd st. in Chicago with the Wabash. That would suggest an NC&StL/L&N route from Atlanta to Cincinnati via Nashville.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 25, 2016 3:15 PM

That first leg distance almost surely means Florida peninsula, guys.  And Nashville is the likely state capital, by way of Chattanooga, perhaps

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, July 25, 2016 3:43 PM

Rob has the right state capital (and it was the only capital city on the route).

I would say that the first part of the routing is the hardest; it is not one that I would have thought of. Indeed, neither immediately logical road out of the origin had any through service to Chicago from that point at tthat time, though both did in later years.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 27, 2016 2:47 PM

Put aside all thoughts of the Sunshine State; the car never saw Florida.

Johnny

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