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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 10:40 AM

daveklepper

The CN Flagship The Dominion is well known, Montreal - Vancouver.   Might there once have been a Montreal - Halifax Dominion?  CP or CN?   Probably CP.

 

Dave,

There was no Halifax section of the Dominion, but you stumbled on a clue - one of the endpoints is in Canada.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 10:42 AM

rcdrye

It certainly doesn't work in the Amtrak era...  But NYC&HR/LS&MS's 1893 Exposition Flyer terminated on the other side of the Chicago River from CB&Q-(D&SL)D&RGW-WP's Exposition Flyer.

 

Good try, but one of the trains I'm looking for was a short-lived Amtrak train.  See my reply to Dave's latest try for another clue.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 11:26 AM

Did Amtrak ever have a train names the Continental or Continental Limited?   Even briefly?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 11:46 AM

daveklepper

Did Amtrak ever have a train names the Continental or Continental Limited?   Even briefly?

 

Nope...

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 12:39 AM
This is a WAG, How about Olympian? All I could think of. Thx IGN
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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:08 AM
One other thing while I was net surfing trying to find something that fit, I see that Grand Trunk Western ran a Pacific Limited from Toronto to Chicago at some point. I did not see any dates. Maybe someone else can look. Thx IGN
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 3:28 AM

But can Toronto be considered an East Coast port?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 10:30 AM

narig01

This is a WAG, How about Olympian? All I could think of. Thx IGN

One other thing while I was net surfing trying to find something that fit, I see that Grand Trunk Western ran a Pacific Limited from Toronto to Chicago at some point. I did not see any dates. Maybe someone else can look. Thx IGN

 

The Olympian would not be it.  Also, I would steer away from Toronto.

 

More clues -

The non-Amtrak summer season train that used this name was originally handled by two railroads, but eventually was partially rerouted via a third railroad.  Eventually, this train's route was shortened, which would have disqualifyed it from this question, but for a few years through cars would be handled by other trains of the third road.  In the last few years of its existance, this trains through cars would mostly be handled by other trains.

As for the Amtrak train using this name: even though the existance of this train and the heavyweight train of the same name were separated by several decades, for some reason Amtrak used the name graphic from the heavyweight train in its timetables during this trains existance.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:13 PM

The Norfolk-Chicago "Mountaineer" ran under Amtrak from 1975-1977 before getting truncated, combined or whatever and renamed the "Hilltopper".

The Soo-CPR summer-only "Mountaineer" ran from Chicago to Vancouver B.C. via Portal ND from the mid-1920's to 1960.  The Chicago-St.Paul section was usually operated over Soo's own Wisconsin Central line, but sometimes cars were carried on C&NW's "Viking".  The "Mountaineer" often ran with a wild collection of cars borrowed from other trains, the main reason (aside from an interline car CHI-Sault Ste Marie with the CMStP&P) Soo Line had a contract with Pullman.  Other Soo trains operated with Soo Line (or CPR) owned sleepers.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:08 PM

rcdrye

The Norfolk-Chicago "Mountaineer" ran under Amtrak from 1975-1977 before getting truncated, combined or whatever and renamed the "Hilltopper".

The Soo-CPR summer-only "Mountaineer" ran from Chicago to Vancouver B.C. via Portal ND from the mid-1920's to 1960.  The Chicago-St.Paul section was usually operated over Soo's own Wisconsin Central line, but sometimes cars were carried on C&NW's "Viking".  The "Mountaineer" often ran with a wild collection of cars borrowed from other trains, the main reason (aside from an interline car CHI-Sault Ste Marie with the CMStP&P) Soo Line had a contract with Pullman.  Other Soo trains operated with Soo Line (or CPR) owned sleepers.

 

BINGO! You got it!

Initially, the Mountaineer initially ran as a separate train on the Soo and by the early 1930's C&NW operated the train between Chicago and St. Paul.  During its time on the C&NW the train sometimes ran indepdently and other times as part of another C&NW train.  Post WW2, it became primarily a St. Paul-Vancouver operation with a few Chicago cars via C&NW, but as time went on, the train was merged with CP trains (I think the Dominion), becoming a St. Paul-Portal-Moose Jaw operation.

As for the Amtrak version, as I mentioned earlier, when it's Mountaineer was running, for some reason Amtrak used the same name graphic that Soo/CP used in the mid-1920's.  Why this train was allowed to be visually different in its schedules I have no idea.

The next question is yours....

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:18 PM
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 7:55 PM

In the last several years of operation The Mountaineer and the Soo-Dominion were the Summer and rest-of-year versions of the same train, usually but not always combined with CP's Dominion west of Moose Jaw.  After 1960 summer-only through cars went via Winnipeg until 1963, without either of the old train names.

 

New question:

When this train was given new equipment after 20 years of operation, its publicity photos were posed with 15 year old locomotives (rarely used on the train in regular operation) and against a backdrop that should have belonged to another train jointly operated by its owner.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 19, 2015 4:58 AM

Possibly the Denver Zephyr posed with an E5 against a CZ background?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 19, 2015 6:19 AM

I'll accept that.  The widely distributed shot had an E5-powered 1956 DZ posed in front of a background shot of Marias Pass, really more appropriate for the Empire Builder.  Despite its western endpoint, the DZ did not have a very scenic run - at least as far as mountains.  The DZ was usually assigned a three unit set of E7-E9 series engines.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 19, 2015 7:48 AM

The crossing of the Mississippi was scenic but occured at night when passengers were asleep on the DZ, and there was some drama seeing the Front Range in the morning approaching Denver.   But nothing like the EB or CZ, of course.

An interurban line that was a subsidiary of a Class I railroad that ended its passenger service after conversion to diesel for frieght with an ACF-Brill or Fageol diesel bus mounted on flanged wheels. If you know the answer, tell me if the track still exists for freight?   I would imagine it does because of the industry that the line penetrated.

The major city had at least one other interurban line as well as an extensive local streetcar system, both converted to bus before WWII.

It has light rail or modern streetcar, depending on your definition, today, but it does not go where the interurban of the question went.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:49 AM

The MoPac's Houston North Shore?  I believe UP is still operating the track involved (MoPac ran it with steam and diesels) which went to a huge Humble Oil (Exxon) refinery.  Houston's other major interurban was the Galveston-Houston Electric.  HNS was part of the Beaumont, Sour Lake and Western susidiary of the New Orleans Texas and Mexico, part of the Missouri Pacific Lines.  NOT&M became part of the MP proper in 1956.  Interurbans ran on the Houston streetcar system until 1931, were replaced by railbusses in 1948, and ran until 1960.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 19, 2015 10:41 AM

Fast, thorough, and accurate answer.  Glad to know the track is still in freight service.   And look forward to your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 19, 2015 5:27 PM

This Canadian-owned interurban was entirely within the U.S.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 20, 2015 7:39 AM

I believe this was the interurban part of whose RoW now is used by the Seashore Trolley Museum at Kennebunkport. ME.

Have to look this up.     Atlantic Shore RR?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 20, 2015 7:50 AM

Atlantic Shore Line Railroad

If this is not right, then Niagra Junction, which for most of its life was a freight switching electric railroad, but did once have a passenger service to Buffalo.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 20, 2015 8:16 AM

The Atlantic Shore Line Ry was a consolidation of smaller companies.  The ROW used by Seashore was abandoned by ASL in 1927, but the company continued operation in Sanford until after WWII.  It wasn't Canadian owned, but you'r getting warmer (or colder, which is more likely in Maine).  The International Railway in Niagara Falls had some Canadian ownership, but was also partly in Canada.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 21, 2015 7:20 AM

The interurban I'm looking for interchanged with its owner on the U.S. side of the border.  It also used a paint color that any Canadian would readily identify with its parent.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 21, 2015 5:13 PM

Aroostook Valley Railroad

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 21, 2015 6:06 PM

The Aroostook Valley was a CP subsidiary, surviving on lumber and potatoes.  A 1200 volt line, it was dieselized in 1946.  AVRR combines 70 and 71 are both at Seashore Trolley Museum, with 70 operational but waiting on interior work.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:59 AM

If one rides Brooklyn's Brighton Line between Avenue H and Ocean Parkway, where the line is four tracks on a raised embankment, now used by the B and Q lines, but with a history of D, QB, QT, and 1, one can see a few remaining signs at bridges over streets that the embankment was once wider, accomodating two additional tracks on the east side.   What tracks were there?   Who owned them?  Where did the trains come from and go to?  What equipment was used?

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:22 AM
This was the The New York and Manhattan Beach Railroad. Developed by one Austin Corben. When the Brighton Line was elevated in 1907(?), by then it was a branch of the Long Island RR (LIRR). It connected to the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR . Originally ran to Greenpoint. Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Beach_Branch Thx IGN
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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:58 AM
Equipment. Originally ran as a 3ft railway with Mason Bogie steam locomotives. http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,264479 Thx IGN
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:05 AM

Correct, your question.  Before it was elevated, there were crossovers around Kings Highway so that elevated trains from Park Row and downtown Brooklyn, via the Fulton Steet elevated and the Brighton Line, could run to Manhattan Beach.  I don't know if this was a scheduled service or just special moves, but I believe trolley wire was installed south of these crossovers to the Manhattan Bach terminal for these trains. The LIRR also had standard gauge Forney tank locmotives.

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 5:59 PM

daveklepper

Correct, your question.  Before it was elevated, there were crossovers around Kings Highway so that elevated trains from Park Row and downtown Brooklyn, via the Fulton Steet elevated and the Brighton Line, could run to Manhattan Beach.  I don't know if this was a scheduled service or just special moves, but I believe trolley wire was installed south of these crossovers to the Manhattan Bach terminal for these trains. The LIRR also had standard gauge Forney tank locmotives.

 

Dave I spent a couple of nites looking thru various sites on the Manhatttan Beach. O

Originally Andrew Corbin had Narrow Gauge cars with vestibules, not open platform cars. It must have been an interesting operation in its early days as Mr Corbin wanted a first class operation. 

 

The Long Island RR site had a piece 

 

http://www.lirrhistory.com/nymbry.html

 

also there are Bob Emery's track maps from 1924

 

http://www.lirrhistory.com/mbry1924maps.htm

 

Between that and the Narrow Gauge discussion group a fascinating history. And a lot of interesting reading.

 

Thx IGN

 

 

 

 

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:07 PM
And a question. I don't know if this would be considered right for this forum as it is and is not within the time frame.But here goes What is currently believed to be the oldest electric streetcar built as an electric.(built as such not to be hauled behind another method and pulled then converted to electric).. This streetcar is still in service(on an occasional basis) in the city it was built for!! Rgds IGN

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