Well, the UP did run a mixed train...we called it the Pigs N People...of sorts between KC and Denver. It didn't leave from KCUS, but from UP's James Street facility and was usually 3 E's and two streamlined coaches. #369&370.
They'd run like a scorched cat out to J City, then tack on 100 freight cars and crawl to Cheyenne Wells, doing switching along the way. (You haven't lived until you've switched an elevator with a passenger train). Somewhere , maybe Cheyenne Wells; maybe Limon, they'd drop the freight for the local to snatch later, and take off at full speed again for Denver.
That's as far as my thinking goes.
I'm not sure that it was UP 69/369 & 370/70. My copies of the Guide showed it as a straight passenger train from Kansas City to Salina and as a mixed west of Salina to Denver.
rcdrye I'm working this one as hard as I can. CRI&P had 90 miles of UP trackage rights to get to Denver, but ran Rockets, not mixed trains. And I haven't found a line with enough miles sporting a mixed train.
I'm working this one as hard as I can. CRI&P had 90 miles of UP trackage rights to get to Denver, but ran Rockets, not mixed trains. And I haven't found a line with enough miles sporting a mixed train.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH I'm not sure that it was UP 69/369 & 370/70. My copies of the Guide showed it as a straight passenger train from Kansas City to Salina and as a mixed west of Salina to Denver.
The UP train still doesn't quite fit, so I'm going to propose another that doesn't quite fit. The Duluth South Shore and Atlantic ran around 430 miles from Sault Ste. Marie Michigan to Duluth Minnesota, of which the last 90 or so were on Northern Pacific rails from Marengo Jct. Wisconsin. In Sault Ste. Marie (The Soo) connections were available from Montreal and Toronto via Sudbury Ontario. In Champion Michigan the Milwaukee's Copper Country Limited was handed over to the DSS&A to get to Houghton and Calumet Michigan. I can't come up with a southwesterly connection, but to the southeast from Soo Jct. the line to St. Ignace connected with the car ferry Chief Wawatam via which connections to Detroit and Grand Rapids were possible, but without through cars.
A. You are in the wrong area; the train is not even close to Michigan.
B. It is not the U.P.
C. You were close yesterday..
The railroad also operated a faster train that ran overnight, through the eastern terminal of this train, from an even larger city to this train's western terminal..
That faster, overnight, train had competition from two other trains which provided overnight service. The original locomotives for one of them were unique in that they presented an appearance borrowed from the automotive industry.
CRI&P from Belleveille KS (junction of Chicago and KC lines) to Denver (430.9 miles). last 90 (89.9) miles on UP from Limon CO. Fast overnight train was the Rocky Mountain Rocket (7 and 8) from Chicago. Competitors of overnight train are UP's City of Denver and CB&Q's Denver Zephyr, of which I elect the C of D as the automotive entry as it was styled by GM stylists (looks like a 1930's Chevy Coupe)
I can't find the RI train number as it had been discontinued by my earliest OG, from 1957.
Aha, I told you you were close a few days ago.
The equipment listing in the February 1953 issue (which I picked up in my home town in July of 1953, after our agent received the March issue--he was at the tail end of the distribution) shows #43 as the Kansas City-Tucumcari train, which connected in Belleville with #225-25, which ran from Belleville to Denver (mixed train Limon-Denver). #25 ran Omaha to Belleville. I think that #225/226 was the number for the mixed portion.
Each of the City of Denver's original locomotives had two automobile grills in the nose.
My 1957 OG has 25 petering out in Goodland Kansas. I'll post a qustion some time this evening.
Instead of taking the 105 mile direct route between two points on the main line taken by the top name train, this secondary western name train took a 222 mile jog to serve a mid-size city. Name the railroad, the name train and the city.
That would the GN's Western Star which jogged off the main line taken by the Empire Builder. The longer route ran between Havre and Shelby in order to serve Great Falls.
Mark
And that would be correct. The Western Star was no slouch of a train, getting everything but domes during its 24 years after replacing the "Oriental Limited" as GN's number two run. It did carry more head end busines than the Empire Builder, including storage mail handed off to the Milwaukee Road in St. Paul. Great Falls was an important city to GN, with a population of around 50,000 and a military base. GN's other services to Great Falls included its only RDC, used on a Great Fall-Butte run.
This all Pullman train carried the cars of three other trains on the common leg of their different routes. Two of the three were also all Pullman but the third train carried coaches in addition to a number of sleepers. Name all four trains and their different routes.
Did not the 20th Century`carry a Super Chief sleeper, also Citiy of LA and Citiy of SF, but I probably do not have the answer, unless the City of LA was, at one time, all-Pullman, with the Challenger and Overland carrying coaches. I do not believe the City of SF was ever all-Pullman, particularly west of Ogden.
Dave, the Cities always carried coaches from end to end.
OK. The Super Chief carried NY - LA sleepers for both the PRR Broadway and the NYC Century, two all Pullmans, although at times the PRR sleeper was on the General instead of the Broadway, and aslo for the B&O Capitol Limited, which also had coaches, cut back from NY ׂ(Jersey City) to Washington before being dropped.
PRR and NYC each had daily 4DBR 4Cpt 2DR cars transferred to the Super Chief. The General was used for the C&NW/MILW-UP trains and the California Zephyr. NYC cars to those trains were handled on the Wolverine (via Canada!) westbound and the Lake Shore Limited eastbound.
The B&O's car to the Super Chief came off the Shenandoah. Transferring the car from Grand Central Station to Dearborn required about six miles to go the four blocks from Wells and Harrison to Dearborn and Polk.
This seems to be an elusive subject with differing answers. For ex, from the Santa Fe group we have this:
On March 31, 1946, The Chief (#19/20) became a transcontinental train in that three of its eight full sleepers were coast-to-coast cars in conjunction with the PRR (Broadway Limited #28/29), NYC (20th Century Ltd. #25/26) and B&O (Capital Limited #5/6).
Those cars were:
At the beginning of 1946 the NYC used the grays in a light-dark-light pattern with a pair of silver or silver-gray pinstripes through the window band. In late 1946 that was changed to dark-light-dark, though still with the pinstripes. This scheme lasted until 1948, and there's a good color photo of it from that year on page 14 of Zimmerman's 20th Century Limited. When the Century was re-equipped in 1948 the pinstripes were discontinued, the shades of gray changed slightly, and the letttering style changed too. Also in 1948-9 the Imperials were renamed as Bridge cars.
In 1949, a second sleeper was added from the NYC, a 10-5 Cascade. These were soon replaced by 10-6 River cars (Chicopee River, Indian River, Kankakee River). The Santa Fe used Pine cars for this service.
Around 1950, the B&0 service changed from a 6-6-4 to a 10-6. This service was covered completely by ATSF Pine cars and was extended via the San Diegans to San Diego, becoming the longest Pullman route (3,120 miles).
I have to agree that Flying Crow has an accurate and complete answer. I would like to look forward to his question.
daveklepper I have to agree that Flying Crow has an accurate and complete answer. I would like to look forward to his question.
Sorry but the question has not been answered yet. The trains I am looking for were not transcontinentals. Perhaps a time frame will help with the search. They all ran in the early 1930's.
The question as asked was specificaly answered by Fllying Crow. You should have stated that the trains were not transcontinentals within the original question.
Possibilities for the answer you want might be the Milwaukee's Pioneer between Chicago and the Twin Citiies, with connecting sleepers to NP, GN, SOO; or the Alton Owl Chicago - St. Louis with MP/Tp, Katy, and Frisco connections.
Actually, I was only attempting to clear up the Santa Fe transcon argument. Mark is correct, I did NOT answer his question specifically and so he still has the floor, and his outstanding question.
Buck
OK, but from your post, I gather that the Super did have a daily sleeper for both the Broadway and the Century plus the Shenandoa, and would not that make it an answer to the question? Or am I misreading something?
Actually, the Super Chief only works westbound because the B&O car was put on the All-Pullman Capitol Limited eastbound...
daveklepper OK, but from your post, I gather that the Super did have a daily sleeper for both the Broadway and the Century plus the Shenandoa, and would not that make it an answer to the question? Or am I misreading something?
I have to agree that it would have been better if I'd originally stated that none of the sleepers ran in transcontinental service. I intened to convey the proviso that the train which ran the common leg carried a multiple number of sleepers from each of the other three trains. That, together with the mention of the 1930 timeframe would have eliminated the transcons from contention. All of the four I'm looking for were basically north/south trains. As you point out Buck Dean was technically correct so he can post the next question or wait for someone to identify the trains I was looking for.
All of us agree that you asked a good question, and my comments are just to suggest that all of us asking questions try to put ourselves in the position of those answering to make the effort worthwhile. I too have been guilty of not providing enough information, but I usually added some hints that compensated for that lack, after a day or two without answers.
Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
daveklepper All of us agree that you asked a good question, and my comments are just to suggest that all of us asking questions try to put ourselves in the position of those answering to make the effort worthwhile. I too have been guilty of not providing enough information, but I usually added some hints that compensated for that lack, after a day or two without answers. Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
daveklepper Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
None of them were Southern Railway trains but you are in the right part of the country.
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