You got it right. Many people miss the 1950 Glacier series cars or simply overlook them. These additional Glacier cars made it possible for the Western Star to operate via Great Falls, MT. The Western Star was the actual workhorse of the GN before it was combined with the Fast Mail. It was the train that carried off-line sleepers during the summer months to and from Glacier National Park. They often carried SP sleepers from both Portland and Seattle to Glacier Park where the cars were used as the hotel space while there. From Chicago the Western Star carried eastern roads sleepers to Glacier National Park. Often the Western Star in summer months ran twenty cars. It must have really been something for the counter car and a 36 seat dining car to cope with. I believe that the Western Star dining cars were later increased to 40 seat cars. I have seen the Western Star travel in sections when it was combined with the Fast Mail at Christmas times. I read somewhere once where the Western Star was called the fastest freight in America. That was after it received SDP40s for power. Later the SDP40s and SDP45s could be found on either the Empire Builder or Western Star. I liked the Western Star yet probably rode the Builder three or four times as much. Summer in the 1950's found both trains operating full. Over on the NP the Mainstreeter never came close to the Western Star in passenger loads or as classy a train. One experience on the Mainstreeter was enough for me. The North Coast Limited was a class act and enjoyed it especially the way they placed the domes in the consist with a flat top car separating them. Once had the Navy travel office at Pier 91 in Seattle book my trip from Seattle to Chicago and they booked space on the North Coast Limited. From Chicago I rode the old North Shore to Great Lakes Naval base. I was there less than a month and was transferred once again to Boston Naval Shipyard. Had the opportunity to take the NYC New England States to Boston from Chicago.
Your Question Zephyr Overland
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan Your Question Zephyr Overland
I think you meant Texas Zepher.
ZephyrOverland passengerfan Your Question Zephyr Overland I think you meant Texas Zepher.
Between 1941 (start of WWII) and February 1964 the NYC consolidated named passenger trains out of New York City from 21 to 9. Seven of the 9 remaining in 1964 trains were in the original 21. Name the two that were not.
Texas Zepher Between 1941 (start of WWII) and February 1964 the NYC consolidated named passenger trains out of New York City from 21 to 9. Seven of the 9 remaining in 1964 trains were in the original 21. Name the two that were not.
The Chicagoan and the World's Fair Special.
ZephyrOverland Texas Zepher Between 1941 (start of WWII) and February 1964 the NYC consolidated named passenger trains out of New York City from 21 to 9. Seven of the 9 remaining in 1964 trains were in the original 21. Name the two that were not. The Chicagoan and the World's Fair Special.
Those would be the two!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------New York NYC 1941
No. Time Train 43 2:00 Express to Chicago 9 4:45 Local to Buffalo (oops I said they were all named trains)51 9:00 Empire State Express to Cleveland 5 9:30 Mohawk to Chicago39 12:30 North Shore to Chicago via Detroit41 2:30 Knickerbocker to St. Louis15 4:15 Ohio State Limited to Cincinnati37 4:20 Advance Commodore to Chicago67 4:30 Commodore to Chicago 3 5:30 Pacemaker to Chicago25 6:00 20th Century Limited to Chicago17 6:05 Wolverine Chicago via Detroit19 6:40 Lake Shore to Chicago47 7:00 Detroiter to Detroit11 8:00 Southwestern to Cleveland21 8:05 Lake Erie to Cleveland29 9:00 Niagra to Chicago via Detroit35 10:40 Fast Mail to Buffalo59 11:30 Iroquois to Chicago63 11:50 Genesee to Buffalo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------New York City - 1964
95 6:40 Express to Buffalo51 8:45 Empire State Express to Cleveland39 12:00 World's Fair Special to Chicago via Detroit15 3:00 Ohio State Limited to Cincinnati25 6:00 20th Century Limited to Chicago17 6:15 Wolverine to Chicago via Detroit57 7:00 Cleveland Limited to Cleveland35 10:30 Iroquois to Chicago59 11:15 Chicagoan to Chicago ------------------------------------------------------
Your turn.
OK - here's the question:
A train name that was used by Amtrak was also used on a heavyweight Seaboard Air Line train several decades earlier. Name the SAL train and endpoints.
Among SAL heavyweights at one time were the Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all- Pullman into the diesel era), the Palmland, and the Sunland. As passenger traffic fell off and second hand FEC cars were available, the latter two ran mostly lightweight, but I do remember when they were heavyweight. I believe Amtrak did use the Palmland name. But possibly it was the Sunland. They did not use the Orange Blossom Special name as far as I remember.
daveklepperAmong SAL heavyweights at one time were the Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all- Pullman into the diesel era), the Palmland, and the Sunland. As passenger traffic fell off and second hand FEC cars were available, the latter two ran mostly lightweight, but I do remember when they were heavyweight. I believe Amtrak did use the Palmland name. But possibly it was the Sunland. They did not use the Orange Blossom Special name as far as I remember.
Amtrak never used the Palmland name. You may be thinking of the Palmetto. Amtrak considered using the Orange Blossom Special name but CSX would not allow it. The name I'm thinking of was actually used by Amtrak.
The other SAL heavyweight trains I could find (they were not a very creative bunch) were:
Seaboard Florida Limited 1901-1930which became the New York Florida Limited until 1941which became the Palmland until 1968 (which doesn't quite make sense because other references show this train as lasting to Amtrak which would have been 1971).
Southern States Special 19xx (0x or 1x)which became the Sun Queen in 1941which became the Camellia in 1947which became the Sunland in 1948
Atlanta-Birmingham Special 1915which became the Robert E. Lee in 1930which became the Cottom Blossom during WWII (194x)
Suawnee River Special 1921 (Cincinatti to Naples)
New Orleans-Florida Limited 1924-1949which became the streamliner Gulf Wind
as already mentioned the Orange Blossom Special 1925-1953.
I've not been able to find record of Amtrak using any of these. They had the Gulf Breeze
Texas ZepherThe other SAL heavyweight trains I could find (they were not a very creative bunch) were:Seaboard Florida Limited 1901-1930which became the New York Florida Limited until 1941which became the Palmland until 1968 (which doesn't quite make sense because other references show this train as lasting to Amtrak which would have been 1971).Southern States Special 19xx (0x or 1x)which became the Sun Queen in 1941which became the Camellia in 1947which became the Sunland in 1948Atlanta-Birmingham Special 1915which became the Robert E. Lee in 1930which became the Cottom Blossom during WWII (194x)Suawnee River Special 1921 (Cincinatti to Naples)New Orleans-Florida Limited 1924-1949which became the streamliner Gulf Windas already mentioned the Orange Blossom Special 1925-1953. I've not been able to find record of Amtrak using any of these. They had the Gulf Breeze
Good work on the research, but the train I'm looking for isn't in your list. If it helps, there was no connection between the SAL train and the Amtrak train.
TZ missed naming the Cotton States Special, which split off from the Southern States Special in Hamlet, and headed for Birmingham. This was eventually displaced by the Silver Comet,
I don't know just what span of years the trains were operated, but towards the end of the thirties SAL had the overnight Birmingham Owl and Atlanta Owl, which ran between Atlanta and Birmingham.
I rather doubt that this was properly heavyweight when it was inaugurated, but a 1910 SAL TT shows the Flamingo (yes, SAL had one, too) between New York and Florida points. Of course, Amtrak has not yet operated a one-legged bird.
In 1941, I rode the New York-Florida Limited and the Robert E. Lee. My mother, my oldest brother, my youngest brother, and I boarded in Camden to go up to Virginia to visit relatives. Since we were being met in McKenney, where the New York-Florida Limited did not stop, we detrained in Raleigh and waited for the Robert E. Lee, which did stop at McKenney, on flag. And, except for my oldest brother, who was in college, we were riding a pass. Going back home, we boarded the New York-Florida Limited in Petersburg becasue it did not stop in McKenney-- and the conductor did not ask for any fare even though the pass read from McKenney to Camden. The day after we got back home, I started to school.
Johnny
The Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth.
http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
wanswheelThe Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth. http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
The Tidewater was not the answer I was looking for but I will accept it because it mostly answers the question (I think the train was primarily heavyweight) - plus I will be away from the internet for a few days and I don't want to stop the forum because of my absence. The Tidewater was used on a SAL Jacksonville-Portsmouth run and an Amtrak Newport News-Boston run as well. The answer I was looking for was the Floridian. The SAL Floridian was a Jacksonville-St. Petersburg train in the late 1910's and a New York-Washington-St. Petersburg train in the mid 1920's while we all know about Amtrak's Floridian.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nZoLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hlQDAAAAIBAJ&dq=floridian%20seaboard%20air%20line&pg=6001%2C4557247
Wanswheel, the next question is yours.
I learned something, there. The only Floridian (also spelled Floridan) was the IC/CofG/ACL train from the 1920's. Never heard of the SAL Floridian.
I wouldn't have come up with that one in a thousand years.
Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
After I posted my Sunland-Palmland comment, I remebered the Tidewater, but could not get back to the email terminal in time. When I rode it, it was a Portsmouth (Norfolk Area) - Atlanta train, with through cars for Florida. I rode it from Southern Pines (near the west gate of Fort Bragg, where I was stationed) to Portsmouth, rode the connecting bus to Norfolk. took a First Class Commercial Radio Station Operator's Liscense Test at the Federal Building, and then returned to Fort Bragg. By the time I rode it, most of the equipment was lightweight, but I learned it had been completely heavyweight earlier. I don't remember anything special aobut the train, in 1955. My superior officer, Major Warren S. Bell, had me take the test because we had a mobile radio broadcasting system under test and I needed the liscence to operate it. I could have driven my car, of course, but the chance to ride some new mileage ruled in favor of a train. I don't remember going hungry, but I don't remember anything really special about the food either. I am not even certain I ate on the train. Most of the ride was at night. I think we left Southern Pines about 2 or 3 in the morning, got to Porstmouth about 7:30AM and returned in the evening getting back to Southern Pines about midnight. All expenses were paid by the Army, but I rode coach. There was a sleeper from Florida and one from Miami or Jacksonville on the train. Someone might check schedules and see what errors my memory has, if any. There was no problem leaving my car at the Southern Pines Station.
AWP290I learned something, there. The only Floridian (also spelled Floridan) was the IC/CofG/ACL train from the 1920's. Never heard of the SAL Floridian. I wouldn't have come up with that one in a thousand years. Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
A lot a people get the Floridian (2 "i") mixed up with the Floridan (1 "i"). They were two completely different trains, the IC train being the Floridan (1 "i"), while the Floridian (2 "i") name was used on the SAL and Amtrak. I have a suspicion that Amtrak also thought the Floridan was the Floridian when they renamed their Chicago-Florida train from the South Wind.
ZephyrOverland A lot a people get the Floridian (2 "i") mixed up with the Floridan (1 "i"). They were two completely different trains, the IC train being the Floridan (1 "i"), while the Floridian (2 "i") name was used on the SAL and Amtrak. I have a suspicion that Amtrak also thought the Floridan was the Floridian when they renamed their Chicago-Florida train from the South Wind.
wanswheel The Tidewater? Jacksonville to Portsmouth. http://books.google.com/books?id=MM2ph3S2V2cC&pg=PA204#v=onepage&q=&f=true
So, I was mistaken that the Tidwater name was used for the cars that ran to Atlanta. But the coaches I rode, both to and Portsmouth, were Atlanta coaches, not Jacksonville. What train did the equipment use between Hamlet (where I assume the switching was done) and Atlanta? The Silver Comet? When you rode the train, what kind of meal service existed? I am pretty sure that toward the end of service, in the Seabgord Coast Line days, that the trian became just a Portsmouth - Hamlet train, with cars handled by other trains both to Atlanta and Jacksonville. Possibly someone with the required timetables or official guides can answer the questions.
My father would've been 95 today, born in St. Albans on October 13, 1914. He typed up a proposal in 1971 for the new Amtrak railroad to revive the old CV Montrealer, and hundreds of letters to drum up support for the train in New England. This lead to passenger service in Vermont, which still exists, and a Presidential appointment to the Amtrak board of directors. He served from 1974 to 1978.
Pay no attention to the spooky guy in the window!
http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtSLEEP/amt2990.jpg
In case you missed it in the December 2000 Trains magazine, here's a link to the football season thread where I posted the text of "We Brought the NYC to Its Knees" by Joseph MacDonald.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/159618/1760761.aspx#1760761
What railroad supplied the locomotive for a train promoting a drug store chain in 1936?
Mike MacDonald
Dave, here's about all I could find on the web about the Tidewater.
http://www.geocities.com/orvillei/seaboard59.html
http://webpages.charter.net/suzuya/Seaboard2.html
wanswheel My father would've been 95 today, born in St. Albans on October 13, 1914. He typed up a proposal in 1971 for the new Amtrak railroad to revive the old CV Montrealer, and hundreds of letters to drum up support for the train in New England. This lead to passenger service in Vermont, which still exists, and a Presidential appointment to the Amtrak board of directors. He served from 1974 to 1978. Pay no attention to the spooky guy in the window! http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtSLEEP/amt2990.jpg In case you missed it in the December 2000 Trains magazine, here's a link to the football season thread where I posted the text of "We Brought the NYC to Its Knees" by Joseph MacDonald. http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/159618/1760761.aspx#1760761 What railroad supplied the locomotive for a train promoting a drug store chain in 1936? Mike MacDonald
Al is right it was a NYC locomotive but not a Pacific or Hudson. It was a 4-8-2 Mountain type (NYC L-2c class Mohawk #2873).
http://www.themetrains.com/html/rexall_main.htm
Mark
daveklepper So, I was mistaken that the Tidwater name was used for the cars that ran to Atlanta. But the coaches I rode, both to and Portsmouth, were Atlanta coaches, not Jacksonville. What train did the equipment use between Hamlet (where I assume the switching was done) and Atlanta? The Silver Comet? When you rode the train, what kind of meal service existed? I am pretty sure that toward the end of service, in the Seabgord Coast Line days, that the trian became just a Portsmouth - Hamlet train, with cars handled by other trains both to Atlanta and Jacksonville. Possibly someone with the required timetables or official guides can answer the questions.
Dave, if you looked at a condensed SAL timetable, you would have seen the Tidewater listed, with Portsmouth-Atlanta and Portsmouth-Jacksonville cars. The full timetables which I have never showed the Tidewater separately except as a northbound train, and even then it ran as a separate train only in the winter season, when the Silver Star did not run through Jacksonville. For at least one year, it was combined with the Sunland northbound out of Jacksonville (the cars always were combined with this train southbound). Except during the winter season, it was combined with the Silver Star northbound.
Until the Silver Comet was inaugurated, the Portsmouth-Atlanta cars were operated on the Cotton States Special, and then they were operated as part of the Silver Comet. Until in the mid-sixties, the Portsmouth train ran only to Norlina; all the through cars were put on the Sunland (or its predecessor) there, and the Atlanta cars were switched at Hamlet. After the reduction of mainline SAL trains, the Portsmouth train ran to Raleigh, and all of the switching was done there (except after 7 was combined with 33 north of Hamlet; then the Florida cars were taken off 33 there). Until SCL came into existence, there was a diner on the Portsmouth-Norlina/Raleigh train; SCL provide "snack service."
The SCL timetable dated 12/15/67 still shows service out of Portsmouth; the timetable dated 4/28/68 does not.
1929 Alco in Montpelier. Al's turn.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/8/2/8182.1176742800.jpg
In what year did the GN combine the Western Star and Fast Mail trains?
Thanks. That is the memory refresher I needed. Glad I rode it.
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