wanswheel Al has the next question on the other thread so I'll ask a question on this thread. Around 1952 the Budd Company built 64 cars to make 4 trainsets for 3 trains. The tavern lounge bar front on at least one of the trains was designed to resemble a Revolutionary War drum featuring a rattlesnake, similar to the Culpeper flag. What railroad and what trains? Mike
Al has the next question on the other thread so I'll ask a question on this thread. Around 1952 the Budd Company built 64 cars to make 4 trainsets for 3 trains. The tavern lounge bar front on at least one of the trains was designed to resemble a Revolutionary War drum featuring a rattlesnake, similar to the Culpeper flag. What railroad and what trains?
Mike
Oh, yes, the cars were built for the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Just think of the cars each train had!
Each Congo (as they were often called), had 8 chair cars with 60 seats plus a 14 seat lounge, a lunch counter-tavern lounge car, a dining room car, a kitchen-bar lounge car (no dormitory space was needed on these trains), a 7 room conference parlor car that had a telephone room, 5 29-seat with drawing room parlor cars, and an 18-seat buffet lounge observation parlor car. How many cars does Amtrak operate on its New York-Washington trains?
Each Senator had the same coach accommodations, but different parlor acommodations: a 48-seat diner, 3 29-seat and drawing room parlor cars, and a 14-seat, telephone, buffet observation parlor car. Again, how many cars does Amtrak operate on its Boston-Washington trains. It is true that there are more through trains between Boston and Washington now--the New Haven and Pennsy had, at most, three through day trains.
Johnny
Johnny, yes the Congressionals and the Senator. Your turn.
Here's a link to a photo showing the bar front. Click the magnifier to 50%, then to 100%, and then click on the smaller version of the photo on the right where the red square is to select the area.
http://digital.hagley.org/u?/p268001coll4,7413
This link is to the Hagley Digital Archives advance search page. To see a Tuscan Purple GG1, the observation car George Washington and various car interior photos, type all of the words "Congressional" and click Search.
http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/search.php?CISOROOT=/p268001coll4
Enlargement of the PRR ad:
http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T31/T3106/T3106-lrg.jpeg
wanswheelJohnny, yes the Congressionals and the Senator. Your turn.
In 1950, new, lightweight, equipment was built for the Crescent. One type of car was 5 double bedroom, Buffet Lounge-Observation. The Southern owned one, the W of A owned one, and the L&N owned two. In 1958, these cars were withdrawn from the Crescent, and the Southern car was rebuilt to an eleven bedroom configuration. I have no information as to what was done with the W of A’s Car. How were the L&N’s two cars used, regularly, for about the next eight years?
The WofA's round-end ob was sold to Joseph B. Lanier of West Point, GA, and was later used as a VIP suite at a college in Panama City, FL. It is currently (as far as I know) privately owned and is undergoing restoration in Orlando, FL.
Now - to answer the question, the L&N's cars (Royal Canal and Royal Street) were used on various Florida trains (notably the Gulf Wind and the Florida Special for quite a while, possibly up to 5-1-71.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
AWP290 The WofA's round-end ob was sold to Joseph B. Lanier of West Point, GA, and was later used as a VIP suite at a college in Panama City, FL. It is currently (as far as I know) privately owned and is undergoing restoration in Orlando, FL. Now - to answer the question, the L&N's cars (Royal Canal and Royal Street) were used on various Florida trains (notably the Gulf Wind and the Florida Special for quite a while, possibly up to 5-1-71. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
Okay, here goes:
The lightweight Crescent, trains 37 and 38 carried diners provided by the Southern, the Atlanta & West Point, and the Louisville & Nashville. The question is - Where were these diners provisioned and the crews domiciled? Remember, this is the post-1950 Crescent.
Since the diners of the Crescent operated through between New York and New Orleans my guess is the crews were domiciled according to the ownership of the particular diner. In the case of the L&N cars I would guess that to be New Orleans and they would make a round trip to New York and back. The Southern diners would probably have Atlanta based crews who would make a trip to New Orleans from Atlanta then to New York and back to Atlanta. Probably the A&WP crew would also be Atlanta based. If they operated like most roads the dining cars would be provisioned at terminals so in the case of the Crescent that would be New Orleans and New York. That is not to say that additional provisioning did not take place at Atlanta if necessary.
Al - in - Stockton
Al - You are correct in that the Southern's diners were stocked and crews changed in Atlanta. The other two responses (West Point Route and L&N) are incorrect.
I am speaking of the 1950-57 or '58 era as the situation changed a bit after that.
Bob Hanson
This is not in direct response to Bob's question, but does relate to the operation of the Crescent.
Since there were only four complete sets of lightweight equipment, and there was not much time to turn the train if it was late arriving in New Orleans even when it left at 11:00 pm, I wonder if the train that came in one day, except for the diner (they were changed out along the way, so the diner had to be turned the same day), went back north the next day. It seems to me that Pullman had a larger stock of replacement cars in New York than in New Orleans, so a train could be put together in New York to take the place of equipment that arrived too late to be turned.
By the way, Bob, welcome to the Trains and Classical Trains forums. It's always good to gain information from new members who are willing to share their knowledge with us all.
Southern Timetable 1/15/58: Crescent left NO at 11:00 pm, running as a separate train. Southern Timetable 5/11/58: Crescent is consolidated with Pan American from NO to Montgomery, leaving at 9:00 pm. At the same time, the southbound Pan American was consolidated with the Piedmont Limited from Montgomery to New Orleans. At one blow, the L&N eliminated a train between the two cities.
The L&N had a number of "phantom" trains. At one time, I believe, they operated one train out of New Orleans that carried cars for the Pan American, Gulf Wind, the Crescent, unless I'm mistaken. They cut out the Wind at Flomaton, AL, the Crescent at Montgomery, and the Pan continued on its way.
It may have been the Humming Bird, not the Pan, but either way, they got three trains out of New Orleans for the price of one.
Trains had a piece on this practice in the February, 1964, issue, complete with car routing charts.
Deggesty This is not in direct response to Bob's question, but does relate to the operation of the Crescent. Since there were only four complete sets of lightweight equipment, and there was not much time to turn the train if it was late arriving in New Orleans even when it left at 11:00 pm, I wonder if the train that came in one day, except for the diner (they were changed out along the way, so the diner had to be turned the same day), went back north the next day. It seems to me that Pullman had a larger stock of replacement cars in New York than in New Orleans, so a train could be put together in New York to take the place of equipment that arrived too late to be turned. By the way, Bob, welcome to the Trains and Classical Trains forums. It's always good to gain information from new members who are willing to share their knowledge with us all. Southern Timetable 1/15/58: Crescent left NO at 11:00 pm, running as a separate train. Southern Timetable 5/11/58: Crescent is consolidated with Pan American from NO to Montgomery, leaving at 9:00 pm. At the same time, the southbound Pan American was consolidated with the Piedmont Limited from Montgomery to New Orleans. At one blow, the L&N eliminated a train between the two cities. Johnny
After shooting from the hip in my earlier post, I did my homework.
After checking a December 1964 Official Guide I found that the Pan carried the cars for the Crescent out of New Orleans. The cars for No. 34, the Piedmont Limited were hauled by the Gulf Wind.
The trains were separated in Montgomery and Flomaton, AL, respectively.
All this is several years after the era of my question on the Crescent's diners, however.
If not NO and Atl then I'd guess both the West Point Route and L&N diners must have been stocked at Montgomery and their crews headquartered there as well.
Southbound the Crescent left Atlanta at 8:35am and arrived Montgomery at 11:30 so only breakfast would be served. Going north it left at Montgomery at 7:40am and arrived Atlanta at 1:15pm so both breakfast and lunch would be served in the West Point car.
Heading south the train left Montgomery on the L&N at 11:30am and arrived NO at 6:45pm. Lunch would be served but I'll bet the dinner patrons were relatively few as most, particularly first class, passengers probably opted to wait and dine in one of NO's fine restaurants rather than eat on the train. Northbound the Crescent left NO at 8:00pm and arrived Montgomery at 7:15am so breakfast was probably the only meal served.
There was a 15 minute station stop at Mobile which was the only other place the L&N diner could be provisioned if not at Montgomery.
Mark
Mark -
You got it. Montgomery on the West Point Route and Mobile on the L&N. I always figured that WPR diners would be provisioned in Atlanta and the L&N in New Orleans, but I found out otherwise when I went through the operating file on Tr.s 37-38 in the NS archives several years ago.
A fifteen minute stop in Mobile doesn't sound like a lot, but if you wire ahead your requirements and have the supplies, and the personnel, on hand it doesn't take too long to load the diner.
Okay, Mark - your turn.
Bob,
Until you asked this question I had no idea that different diners were switched in and out of the Crescent enroute as the train passed from one railroad to another. This seems a most unusual practice and I'm wondering why it was done this way. Unless I'm greatly mistaken I think it was far more normal for the diner(s) of long distance streamliners to remain in the consist for the train's entire run with dormitory cars provided for diner and lounge car personnel when they were not actually working. I'm thinking of trains such as the City of Miami, Southwind, Golden State Ltd, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, the City trains of the UP, CNW and Wabash, etc.
On to the next question. What passenger train had the same name as an ingredient commonly found in a drink that is traditionally associated with the Christmas season? Name the train, the railroad which operated it and its end point terminals.
KCSfanUntil you asked this question I had no idea that different diners were switched in and out of the Crescent enroute as the train passed from one railroad to another. This seems a most unusual practice and I'm wondering why it was done this way. Unless I'm greatly mistaken I think it was far more normal for the diner(s) of long distance streamliners to remain in the consist for the train's entire run with dormitory cars provided for diner and lounge car personnel when they were not actually working. I'm thinking of trains such as the City of Miami, Southwind, Golden State Ltd, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, the City trains of the UP, CNW and Wabash, etc.
Mark, perhaps the Southern was different. And, I don't think that you can blame the L&N and A&WP wanting to take care of their own cars. I had not thought of changing their diners in Montgomery nor of restocking them in Mobile.
When I rode the City of Portland from Portland to Chicago in April of 1971, the Portland diner ran between Green River and Portland, of course, for there was not enough business to warrant two diners east of Green River. I had the impression that at least the crew changed in Omaha, for I have memory of a different steward (I think he was MILW), and I think the diner was also changed. That was my only experience with the UP's Cities Service.
Mark, I didn't say the diners were switched out, only provisioned and crews changed. The diners were switched out and serviced mechanically at either end of the run.
The situation I laid out changed in 1957 (maybe '58) when the A&WP contracted with Southern Railway to service and operate its diners. After that time the WPR diners were stocked and crews changed in Atlanta. The West Point Route china was replaced with Southern's Piedmont pattern at the same time, although the West Point Route-marked silver remained on board.
Bob
AWP290 Mark, I didn't say the diners were switched out, only provisioned and crews changed. The diners were switched out and serviced mechanically at either end of the run. Bob
That makes a lot more sense. I misunderstood and couldn't think of any reason for the cars themselves to be swapped out.
KCSfanWhat passenger train had the same name as an ingredient commonly found in a drink that is traditionally associated with the Christmas season? Name the train, the railroad which operated it and its end point terminals.
Bay State, NH, NYC-Boston? bay is usually NOT a christmas drink spice .
Maple Leaf, VIA/Amtrak, NY-Toronto?
Christmas drinks:egg nog (eggs, milk, sugar, vanilla, nutmeg, rum)hot spiced cider (apple cider, cinnamon, brown sugar, allspice, cloves, orange w/peel)wassail (apple cider, red wine, ginger, cinnamon, orange juice, pineapple juice, cloves, honey)candy cane cocoa (milk, chocolate, peppermint)
I'm not seeing anything to make a connection with.
Orange Blossom Special, SAL, NYC-Miami?
Ah wait a minute.
The Nutmeg, NYNH&H, Boston-Waterbury? Is Waterbury a port?
TZ,
You've got it so pour yourself a glass and ask the next question. It was the New Haven's Nutmeg which is a common ingredient of egg nog but a peculiar name for a train. According to my info the Nutmeg ran between Boston and Hartford.
Are you sure it was Boston - Harford? Through trains Boston - Hartford generally ran through to Waterbury. Worth checking. But perhaps train numbers were changed and the name dropped at Hartford.
Yes, Waterbury is a RIVER PORT. Center of weapon manufacturering and copper items. And, blast it, I am b locking on the name of the River. Help!
No service today to Boston, and track missing in spots but land-banked in Connecticut.
Sevice to NY on Metro North - CDot.
Wait, just remembered, there are two rivers running north-south through Connecticut west of the Connecticiut River that linkes Old Saybrook and Hartford. One is the Housatonic and the other is the Naragansett. I THINK, but am not sure, that the Housatonic is the river through Danbury (still serrice to NY) and Lee and Great Bararington MA (tracks in, museum operations, freight service), and the Naaragansett is the river up to Waterbury. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Waterbury Union Station. I think trains to Hartford ceased in 1955 when a flood of the Naugatuck River ruined the tracks.
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?200606281119041508.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=189082
But by that time had not the Nutmeg been discontiniued, at least as a named passenger train?
Oh yes, it is the Naugatuck River, not Naragansett, as one of the two rivers west of the Connecticut River in Connecticut.
I rode the Comet, the articulated Goodyear built New Haven streamliner, in this service around 1951. But the Comet referred to the equipment, not the train name.
The Naragansett was in Massachusetts, and I think it is a beach town, not a river! Buyt maybe both. Anyway, it was also on a New Haven branch line. One of the NYNH&N's early electrification experiments. If I remember correctly, third rail 600V DC with MU open-bench summer cars! Three running boards to climb on each side, possibly 18 benches seating 90 people per car.
TZ and Dave,
I stand corrected. Your replies prompted me to recheck the route of the Nutmeg in my OG's. No's 128 & 129 did indeed run between Boston and Waterbury.
daveklepperOne is the Housatonic and the other is the Naragansett.
Wikipedia tells us, "The Narragansett River, an old name for 1.) the Pawcatuck River [1] or 2.) what is now called the Blackstone River, Seekonk River, Providence River, and Narragansett Bay."
Narragansett, R. I., is on Rhode Island Sound; there may well be beaches there.
Dave, you must have missed the renaming of the river.
When the GN operated the Empire Builder during the 1950's and 1960's each days eastbound train changed out dining cars , Lounge Cars and Ranch cars in St. Paul. Then a newly stocked Dining, Lounge and Ranch car was cut in for the trip to Chicago and then ran all the way to Seattle and back to St. Paul. This continued in this manner even after the full Dome Lounge cars were added and right up to Amtrak. Additional items could be restocked in Chicago, St. Paul, Havre, and Seattle to top off anything necessary. The fresh seafood offerings were always put on in Seattle. The same thing occurred with the Western Star. Trains such as the Internationals, Cascadian, and the GN pool train to Portland from Seattle were stocked up in Seattle although I only remember a cart for sandwiches and drinks on the Seattle - Portland pool train of the GN. Both the NP and UP offered full dining and lounge service on there Seattle - Poretland pool trains. For many years the UP provided there Seattle Portland pool train with Dome dining as the former GM Train of Tomorrow domes were assigned to the UP Seattle - Portland pool trains.
I did remember after posting that that the Naragansett Beach, Pier, and River, were all in Rhode Island, not Masachusetts. In fact. the branch line, whose electrification did not last very long, became one of the Pinsley New England short lines, the Narragansett Pier Railroad. I rode it in the winter of 1949-1950. It connected with the NEC at Kingston, which is southeast of Providence. The passenger equipment at that time was flanged wheel school bus painted a bright blue. It ran backwards in one direction, without any backup controller. There was also a GE 70-tonner for freight. The only freight cars I remember seeing on line were coal hopper cars. The shoolbus "train" made connection with several of the NY Boston trains that stopped at Kingston. I think the line has been abandoned. It had its own stub passenger track at Kingston which I think was still in place when I last rode the line some 14 years ago, befor NEC Boston electrification.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=45647
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=701205
http://naphotos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2009011213250622016.jpg
http://naphotos.nerail.org/show/?order=byrail&page=4&key=Narragansett%20Pier%20Railroad
thanks!
Is there a question outstanding? - al-in-chgo
I think they all have been outstanding! And interesting, too! Some more thoughtful than others, but otherwise, top notch!
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