More than once before Amtrak, 1 May 1971, I rode a Budd 10 and 6 sleeping car built specifically for the California Zehyr between either Grand Central Terminal or Croton-Harmon and Detroit.
What railroad originally owned this car? What was its name? Original regular-run end-points? Discuss its history as best as you can.
Give the reason for its name.
Dave:
Are you thinking of the "Silver Rapids"? That was PRR's contribution to the CZ from New York to Oakland.
I remember that the CBQ wanted to buy that car, but they could not agree to a price.
Shalom,
Ed Burns
you are the winner, correct. why was it named exactly? Go on with the complete answer. You did show why the PRR contributed a car to the CZ. How did it end up in NY - Detroit service?
Siver Rapids ran in transcontinental service between New York and Oakland, on the CZ and PRR's "General" . The car or another CZ car operated over the PRR every other day. New York Central handled a CZ car on the "Commodore Vanderbilt" but its contribution to the pool was usually a Budd-built "Valley" car, similar to the CZ cars but lacking the aisle-side windows opposite three of the bedrooms.
Silver Rapids combined the "Silver" CB&Q prefix with the PRR "Rapids" suffix used for PRR-owned Budd-built 10-6 cars. It passed from PRR to PC in 1968. PC still had plenty of P-S (and a few ACF) 10-6s but liked the Budd ones in later years as fewer sleepers were needed. Silver Rapids was also a regular on PC(PRR)/RF&P/SCL(ACL/SAL) Florida trains. For a time at least it had a black-painted roof like SAL cars. Sometime after it left CZ service the "California Zephyr: lettering got replaced by black "Pennsylvania" and the "PRR" sublettering by "Pullman".
Silver Rapids went to Amtrak in 1972, used until around 1980. The CZ-designed cars were not converted to HEP since 43 UP "Pacific" cars, Santa Fe "Pine" cars and a dozen or so SP 9000 series cars built for the "Sunset" were easier to convert.
In 2009 the car was in private charter service. It's still listed as available.
I yield to Ed for the next question.
thanks rc for the details look forward to ed's question glad to know the car still "lives." Have most of the CZ 10 and 6's survived?
was it equipped with retention toilets?
Eleanor Parker christened the California Zephyr, not in Oakland, in San Francisco.
Dave and Rob:
Thanks for the info on "Silver Rapids". In looking in "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" I thought that "Silver Rapids" was named for topographical places as "Silver Pass" etc.
My question is this:
Northern Pacific passenger trains from Duluth, MN to Minneapolis, MN terminated at the GN depot in Minneapolis. Why was the engine crew allowed five extra miles while the train crew was not?
daveklepper thanks rc for the details look forward to ed's question glad to know the car still "lives." Have most of the CZ 10 and 6's survived? was it equipped with retention toilets?
Any cars still in service have to thave retention toilets. The WP's 10&6s and 6DBR 5 Cpt cars went to Auto Train, where they lasted into the early 1980s. Only a handful of CZ cars are still serviceable.
The photos of the christening are along the Embarcaderoin San Francisco, pretty much where today's F line runs, on the State Belt Railroad. The CZ operated from SP's Oakland Pier from 1949 to 1957, and from WP's own station at Third and Washington in Oakland which is still standing about about a mile from Amtrak's Jack London Square Station. Like in the photo, the CZ loaded from the street on Third Street.
NP Eddie Northern Pacific passenger trains from Duluth, MN to Minneapolis, MN terminated at the GN depot in Minneapolis. Why was the engine crew allowed five extra miles while the train crew was not? Ed Burns
This is just a guess, Ed. The head end crew had to uncouple the engine from the train and run it to the engine terminal.
Mark
I think Mark is right. We looked at the track layout around the GN station a couple of yearsago and I seem to remember the wye used was about two miles away.
Rob and Mark:
Both are correct. The train crew went off duty at the GN depot and stayed at a nearby hotel (don't know where as they were Duluth men) and the engine crew went off duty at Northtown Roundhouse, about five miles from the depot. I remember seeing the passenger Geep doing by the yard office with it's rear classification lights set to red. The NP Enginemen's agreement had a that provision for the Skally passenger crews---and yes I did have to know the agreements as I called crews---the WORST job I ever had!!! An NP Carman did the actual separating of the hoses, etc.
I yield to either of you.
Let Mark have the question.
Digging a little more on "Silver Rapids"...
CZ 10&6's were plan 9509, Silver Rapids was plan 9520 - only car with that plan number.
PRR had two Budd sleepers built to its own account "Scioto Rapids" and "Sturgeon Rapids", both plan 9503. PRR also owned some Budd 10&6s built for service in SAL trains, also plan 9503, but with fluted sides.
Here's the interesting part: PRR's cars had 110V (PRR standard) electrical systems. The SAL-train cars had 64V systems, Silver Rapids had a CZ-standard 32V system.
In 1957 PRR handled the car for the CZ in the "Broadway" westbound and the "Liberty Limited" eastbound, alternating days with a car for the MILW/UP/SP "City of San Francisco" NYC handled their car in both directions on the "Commodore Vanderbilt", also alternating a City of SF car, on the days the CZ car ran on the PRR.
and what was the difference between 9509 and 9530? If you can tell?
daveklepper and what was the difference between 9509 and 9520? If you can tell?
and what was the difference between 9509 and 9520? If you can tell?
The short answer is "no". Pullman plan numbers often hinge on internal arrangements that aren't visible to the casual observer. It may have been as simple as a minor change PRR requested. Pennsy's other Budd 10&6s were all plan 9503, and there were both smooth- and fluted-side versions. The two other Budd PRR Rapids cars were renamed Toronto Islands and Toronto Harbor by PC in 1969 for PC/TH&B/CP service between New York and Toronto.
Quick cheat sheet:
2000 and 3000 series - Pullman heavyweights
4000 series - Pullman lightweights
9000 series - ACF-built lightweights
9500 series - Budd-built lightweights
thanks, look forward to Mark's question
What railroad is credited with operating the first electrically lighted/vestibuled train. Name the railroad and the train.
I'm sure there's some contention on this but...
January 1888 Florida East Coast "New York and Florida Special"
The train was obviously also handled by the PRR, RF&P and whatever the ACL was called in those days.
The Philadelphia Times, January 8, 1888
THE NEW YORK AND FLORIDA SPECIAL
There will leave this city to-morrow at noon a train which will run over the same route used by the "Great Southern Fast Mail" of 1840. It will resemble this train, however, as the lazy mastiff does the fleet and nimble greyhound. Handicapped with a time allowance of twenty-four hours in favor of the great Southern mail, it would outrun it to Charleston by several hours. If it had been described to the traveler of forty years ago he would have laughed at the recital as the fantastic creation of a disordered imagination. The train is indeed the very acme of railroad equipment. It is composed exclusively of Pullman vestibule drawing room, sleeping, dining, smoking and library cars, built expressly for this service by the Pullman Palace Car Company. In appointment and furnishing the cars embody everything that is newest and freshest in the car-builders handiwork. This superb train will be made up of a baggage car, a smoking and library buffet car, a dining car and four drawing room sleepers. The sleepers have a drawing room at each end and contain in the main saloon twelve double berths. Their fitting and furnishing is of the most tasteful and luxurious character, the interior presenting the appearance of a compact and superbly furnished boudoir in some grand mansion. The interior of the dining car is furnished in rare taste, and its arrangement so complete that its service is performed with an ease which seems almost incredible when one considers that the meals are prepared and served as the train flies over the rail at the rate of forty miles an hour. The commissariat is in the hands of the Pullman Company, who have won conspicuous success in this field. The vestibule feature, whereby a continuous and unbroken passage from one end of the train to the other is perfected, makes the dining car as easily accessible to all the other coaches as one end of a given coach is to the other. The smoking car, indeed the most cozy and comfortable quarter of the train, offers luxurious rattan chairs, couches for the languid, books for the readers and writing-desks for those who desire to test the novel experience of writing on the fly. The steady regular motion of the heavy cars makes this an easy job. A most convenient annex to the smoking room is a buftet, whence in response to the touch of an electric bell at hand, a white-jacketed attendant bearing solid or liquid refreshment will emerge. The rear of the smoker is fitted with berths, which are occupied at night by the train attendants. The distinctive features which mark this train as the latest production of scientific car-building are the steam-heating and illuminating devices; under each car there is a coil of pipes, with connecting lines leading from the engine; from these other pipes are introduced as it were by stealth, into the cars, whence they radiate a genial and even heat. The temperature may be regulated at will throughout the entire train, and whatever degree of cold in the North or heat in tho South may exist, the temperature of the cars may be heightened or reduced according to the needs of the moment. The illumination is entirely by electricity and the handsome lamps, with their sparkling, incandescent pendants, adds an exquisite brilliance to their cheery surroundings. The electrical power is supplied not only from storage batteries, but as well from a powerful dynamo placed in the baggage car. This machine gets its motive power from the axles of the car, aided by a system of bands and pulleys. The introduction of the dynamo is an entirely new departure and its use makes sure the lighting force by adding another source of supply. The wires strung through the cars are so ingeniously concealed that one would never suspect their presence. The finest and speediest locomotives used by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company will furnish the motive power for the train and picked men will guide it on its flying course. This is the train which will start southward to-morrow over the old "Great Southern Fast Mail" route. It is the highest type of development in railway progress and a wonderful example of the enormous advancement which science has made since sixty hours were worn out in the weary journey to Charleston.
The Wilmington (NC) Morning Star, January 15, 1888
How the Vestibule Trains are Lighted
The lighting of the New York and Florida special, the vestibule train, is done by electricity. In the baggage car is placed a small dynamo of 85 volt power. A rubber belt is connected with the axle wheel of the car, and all the power necessary to run the machine is economically secured. There are 120 lights in the train, 20 in each car. Each car has 32 cells of electrical insulators, in which is stored the electricity when the dynamo is running. Enough is stored in this way to run the lights four hours if necessary, when the dynamo is not running from any cause. The machine runs at the rate of 1,050 revolutions per minute, and easily supplies all the light necessary. The light (Edison incandescent) is of 60 volts lens, and is equal to 16-candle power. These give a brilliant light. In the dining car the lights are especially noticeable for their soft, diffusive radiance. They are in closed globes called "light condensers," a new patent, and give a mellow, clear light that is very pleasing.
The Tyrone (PA) Daily Herald, December 24, 1888
THE FLORIDA SPECIAL
The phenomenal success of the New York and Florida Special of Pullman drawing-room, dining and sleeping cars running between New York and Jacksonville last season demonstrated beyond doubt the popularity of such a high-class train. Travel demands it, and, with the view of catering, in the best manner possible, to the wishes of every class of its patrons, the Pennsylvania Railroad Company has arranged to again place this train in service between the points mentioned. It will make its initial trip of the season on Monday, January 7th, 1889, and will be run tri-weekly, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays thereafter. The schedule of last year will be maintained, and the special will leave New York 9:30 a.m., Philadelphia 11:59 a.m., Baltimore 2:20 p.m., Washington 3:30 p.m., and arrive Jacksonville 3:40 p.m. next afternoon. The equipment of the train will consist of Pullman vestibule drawing-room, sleeping, smoking and library and dining cars, heated by steam and lighted by electricity. The well-earned reputation of the train for comfort, luxury, and an excellent attention to the creature comforts of its patrons will not only be preserved but nothing will be left undone to make it better than ever in every respect.
Also ran in 1888...
https://archive.org/stream/goldengatespecia00uniorich#page/n5/mode/2up
The Elyria (Ohio) Democrat, November 15, 1888
The Golden Gate Special
CHICAGO, Nov. 13.--Arrangements were completed yesterday by the Union and Central Pacific roads to put on a fast limited Pullman vestibuled train to be called the “Golden Gate Special," to run weekly between Council Bluffs and San Francisco. The service will begin December 5, and the train is to be the most perfect in all its appointments in the world. It will be lighted with electric lights, heated by steam from the locomotive, have a barber shop, separate bath rooms for ladies and gentlemen, and a ladies' maid in attendance on women and children. The train will consist of a baggage car, two sleeping cars, one dining car and one composite car, divided into sleeping, library, smoking and observation rooms. Many other novel features will be introduced. The run is to be made in sixty hours, leaving Council Bluffs every Wednesday morning at ten o'clock and arriving in San Francisco every Saturday at eight p.m. Returning, the train will leave San Francisco at seven p.m. and arrive in Council Bluffs every Tuesday at nine a.m. The fare between Council Bluffs and San Francisco, including everything--railway ticket, sleeping berth, meals en route and service--will be $100.
Yes, the New York and Florida Special is generally credited as being the first. It ran on several railroads that, collectively but unofficially, were known as the Atlantic Coast Line.
Wanswheel, as always your research is excellent and adds much to the answers to these questions.
The PRR (as shown in Wanswheel's always excellent material) was obviously the instigator. Their "Chicago Special" was released shortly thereafter. Both of the trains were powered with a belt-driven generator located in the baggage car. I can't find the reference (Wanswheel?) but I seem to remember that the generators were quickly replaced with steam poered units after the belts failed in service. Milwaukee's Pioneer Limited followed in 1889 with stem-powered generators. There were some other railroads that had used battery lighting on non-vestibuled equipment earlier. Moskowitz' excellent truck mounted axle-powered generator, which made battery lighting practical, was tested as early as 1892, but had to wait for carbon brushes to be practical for longer distances. The first train entirely equipped with axle generators was the 1902 Twentieth Century Limited.
This suburban station was one of the last places from which Pullman setout sleepers left for multiple destinations.
Atlanta's Peachtree Station?
rcdryeThis suburban station was one of the last places from which Pullman setout sleepers left for multiple destinations.
Johnny
As late as 1957, two Pullmans each were placed at Delmar Blvd for Chicago and Kansas City. (The Detroit train left early enough in the evening that no setout was needed.) Wabash's route that curved around the West Side of St. Louis passed the Delmar Blvd station, which was convenient to St. Louis businessmen who wanted to leave from home. The closest equivalent at the time were the cars added at Providence RI to New Haven trains for New York, Washington and Pittsburgh.
Back to you, Johnny!
Still waiting for Johnny's question...
A certain railroad operated a motor car from a town on a river with the same name--but the town's name is in a different language, and the river's name is not spelled quite the same way many people may expect it to be spelled. The route lay more or less along the river. At its destination, approximately 98 miles away, the motor car made a connection to and from a mixed train operated by another road. All in one state.
Name the two roads, the river (be sure you have its name spelled correctly lest you flunk), the town, and the junction.
The town where the train originated and terminated for the day is in a county with the same name as the river.
At a division point for the railroad, this river flows into another river which is well known for a certain geographic feature.
In turn, this second river and a third river (which has a bridge named for it) flow together in the location of the bridge and form a fourth river which has a name well-known by steam locomotive aficionados.
All of this is in one state.
Johnny, I'll take a shot at answering your question. The motor car was C&O No's. 142 & 143 which ran between Ronceverte and Durbin, WV. The connection at Durbin was with Western Maryland mixed train No's. 153 & 154 which ran between Durbin and Elkins, WV.
The river is the Greenbrier which once was known by the French name Riviere de la Ronceverte.
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