frankfort flyer?
I will assume the Frankfort Flyer is the correct answer and now ask a new question.
During WWII, a popular overnight full-service train could not handle the traffic demand, so involved railroads simply used the equipment for a day train sending the equipment back. The day train was able to reduce its end-to-end times considerably by skippig one important station. Name the train, railroads and route, end points serfved. Which station was this, and why was the time reduced considerably?
o f course kc has yet to confirm the frankfort flyer, but doesn't anyone know what two trains the question is referring to, the overnighter that existed well before wwii and contninued some years afterward.
big hint; in its last two years the overnighter was combined with another overnight train south of the station that the wwii day train skipped!
now why did skipping this station save lots of time?
daveklepper o f course kc has yet to confirm the frankfort flyer, but doesn't anyone know what two trains the question is referring to, the overnighter that existed well before wwii and contninued some years afterward.
Dave, if you care to look back, you'll see that I said the name of the train was the Frankfort Fireball. You got the Ann Arbor and the train's route and were so close to naming it I declared you the winner of that question.
Mark
were those two names actually in the public timetable?
regarding my question, three railroads were involved in the operation of the train, although some equipment ran on only two of them, but on occasion four locomotives each way.
The south end was one well-known destination, but the north end had three destinations, only one a state capitol. That station no longer exists and its replacement has no passenger rail service today, although there are plans for future restoration. That specific equipment reversed direction en route, but the equipment to the other two destinations did not.
On the wartime day train, the sleepers ran as parlors.
should i give up on this and ask another question? Before giving up I will give one more hint. Between the farthest end-points of this train, three railroads were involved, and three changes of locomotives for four different locomotives employed. Drop one railroad, locomotive and engine change for the second northern end-point, and then add one locomotive for the third without adding another railroad. On the railroad where two locomotives were employed, the change was mandatory for all train passing through.
but most through trains do not change engines there today. Possibly two each way still do.
The station bypassed by the wartime day train is also for a city that is a State Capitol, with an extensive streetcar system that had links to streetcars and quasi-interurbans over a vast area. Some streetcars lasted until a few years after WWII. Most were replaced by trolleybuses, and that network grew to be very extensive, with one line an interurban line, connecting to a neighboring small city, with its own two local TT lines, and with its first letter the same as that of the State Capitol. An investor saw the possibility of scrapping the TT's, showing profits, then renting diesel buses and when the operating expenses would be to high, unloading on the city, which is what happened, with the wire bringing cash, the newer TT's sold to an operated by a neighboring city and the older TT's converted to diesel buses with fumes and difficult steering.
I would make a guess that you're referring to Richmond VA, and two of the RRs involved were the PRR and RF&P. After that it gets pretty fuzzy to me.
You are on the right Seaboard, the East Coast, but Richmond never had trackless trolleys, converted directly from streetcars to gas and diesel buses.
However, just before WWII, some of the most modern of the streetcars of the capitol city in question did find a new home in Richmond and in Washington, DC, while others stayed home and ran through WWII and a few years after.
The two trains, the night train and the WWII day train were discussed in this forum previously.
I do not believe that there ever were any through trains that did not stop in Richmond, although perhaps the PRR-RF&P-ACL-FEC Florida Special did not show it as a passenger stop and only changed crews in some timetables.
Between end point, the overnight train was the only train on this end-point route for all its time of operation, except for WWII and one or two years after when its equipment as the day train was added.
But lots of through trains ran through Richmond to the same end-points
And there were even more trains on the route of the overnighter (which at one time was all-Pullman) that got combined at the capitol city for the last two years of the overnighter of the question.
I noted that the city the ww2 day train bypassed was the capitol of its state and its state's largest city. Between the south end-point and the three north end-points is an even larger city, also its state capitol and largest city, and both the day train and the much-longer-running overnighter skipped this station! Today one can fairly easily travel between the south end-point and one of three, the most important, of three northern endpoints by train. But could not bypass this larger city and would get to know it pretty well.
and it had and still has more varieties of public transportation modes than any North American city other than San Francisco, six or seven, depending on how you count. (larger city bypassed by both trains)
and the city bypassed only by the day train at one time had four modes and now has only two.
Don't have the train specifics but you have to be talking about Hartford CT (capital and largest city) and Boston (capitol and largest city, many modes of transport) which would make the railroads PRR, NYNH&H and B&M. Boston got bypassed because then as now there's no easy path from the south side to the north side by rail. Hartford got bypassed because the train was rerouted via Providence or New London. If that's the case NYC (B&A) would have handled the train from Springfield to Worcester on one of the possible routings.
New York is correct as the southern terminus, and Boston is correct as the large city bypassed by both trains, and the reason for bypassing Boston is correct.
But neither train ran through Hartford, and neither train used the Boston and Albany, although of course New York Central tracks were used between GCT and Woodlawn.
Before WWII and the inauguration of the daytime reverse equipment train, there was a through sleeper between the largest of the north end-points, not a state capitol, and Washington, interchanged with the Washingtonian/Montrealer at New Haven, with an across-the-platform transfer for coach passengers to and from any of the three north destinations.
Amtrak has investigated restoring the route, with an inspection train operated. Too costly to rehabilitate some low-speed freight trackage for the amount of revenue expected.
People traveling between the one northern endpoint easily reached by Amtrak and New York City do get to know Boston.
One of the northern terminii of those services was Concord NH, which is a state capital. Portland Maine, the largest city in Maine, is not the capital (Augusta is, and does not have train service - yet). Passengers from Portland to New York today are advises to take the Orange Line from North Station to Back Bay to connect with Corridor trains. B&M/NH trains operated via Worcester. The line from Worcester to Ayer, while intact, is pretty slow. The local connecting track in Boston - the "Grand Junction", has awkward connections at both ends and is now owned by MBTA, which uses it to transfer equipment between North side to South side routes.
I knew perfectly well that Maine services operated via New London or Providence to Worcester. I hadn't accounted for the floating state capital.
I did not intend to state that Portland was a state capitol and thought I had made that clear, but that Concord, NH, Boston, and Providence are all state capitols. Please check and you will see that I did not state the largest of the three northern points was a state capitol.
So the name the trains, please, and give the reason that ____ being bipassed made the time saving. You know the answers and should give a good explanation of the whole shebang to others.
It is interesting, though, that the B&A part of the Central never did have any through service to northern New England, Maine and New Hampshire. Not even, as I recall, any through Pullman. Anything from the west went to Troy and over the B&M. If someone knows of any exception, at any time please do post that information!
In addition to the Grand Junction, there was the switching freight railroad connecting North and South Stations on Atlantic Avenue and Commercial Street, but possibly curves were too tight for 80ft long passenger equipment. This was all street-running freight trackage, with the Atlantic AVenue branch of the elevated overhead.
The only big time saver I can think of is bypassing the engine change at New Haven. I suppose it could have been handled with DL109s and an engine change at Sunnyside for the night train (State of Maine). Did the day train run under the East Wind name?
avoiding an engine change does not involve bypassing a state capitol, the state capitol was bypassed, not just no stop but bypassed, like boston was bypassed. both trains did change engines at new haven and so the number of locomotives used would indicate. by the fl-9 era, the day train had long ceased operation, and then the engine change could have been eliminated.
and both trains had gct has the southern terminal. i noted that before ww2, the only train, the night train did have across-the=platform transfer to the motrealer=washingtonian for washington passengers, and a through pullman as well.
both trains did run on tracks now owned by mn-conn-dot, amtrak, providence and worcester, pan=am-guildford. i don't think any boston t tracks were used, but there may be a short stretch somewhere. but the in was nyc to woodlawn, and then nynh&h, b&m, mc.
Then Providence was the bypassed city. But, then, it was often bypassed by New York to Maine traffic.
NYNH&H operated via New London and Worcester, or via New London, Providence and Worcester, depending on operating needs. Using the "shortcut" and bypassing Providence didn't actually save very much time, as the track was a bit better via Providence. Both routes remain intact under P&W ownership.
Routing today would be GCT New York - MNCR - New Haven - Amtrak - New London or Providence - P&W - Worcester. P&W owns the first mile or two out of Worcester to Viaduct Jct, then Pan Am to Ayer, MBTA to Lowell, Pan Am to Lawrence, MBTA to Haverhill, Pan Am to Portland. Since the NH-B&M connection was on Union Station's lower level, MBTA's ex B&A doesn't come into play.
correct. except that it did save time because the track on the Themes River line was in better shape in those days.
the state of maine, the overnight train, always ran via Providence. The RI goverment tried to force the nynh&h to sell the p&w, then only the providence - worcester line, to the central, so RI could have one road service to the midwest, but the new haven kept maintaining it was needed for the state of maine route. but the day express always operated via the direct thems river line, and i think checking the schedules you will find a whole hour was saved there may have been a stop at norwhich, but no other, not even groton, the actual junction east of new london.
i rode all these trains as a youngster to and from summer camp, except the portland-bangor mc portion.
Looking in a 1930s Guide, I see that the State of Maine ran through Norwich then--and I recall seeing in other public timetables (I do not recall just when, nor do I want to dig them out) that there were other times when Providence was bypassed. I doubt that we can find anyone now who can explain to us the reasons for the changes in the routing.
Johnny
Since you have the timetables, can you verify the time saved via the Norwich routing?
i think if you also have access to the Providence newspapers, you can find the discussion of the push to have the New Haven turn over the P&W to the NYC in the postwar period.
At the time the Day Express was inaugurated, sometime in 1942. the line through Norwich had been without passenger service for several years or more. And after the Day Express was discontinued, when riding fell off after WWII, it was not until Bucky Dumaine restored service with Budd RDC's running Worcester - New London to connect with Shore Line trains that passenger service was restored again. This lasted until sometime during the McGinnis management, possibly at the time of a hurricane.
i first rode the State of Maine in late June or early July 1938 in a camp Pullman to Concord. I believe at that time we ran via Providence, and the that train continued on this route until its demise. Rode it every year through 1942 to and from Concord.
in 1943 and 1944 I rode the Day Express. My last ride on the State of Maine was to Portland in 1948 or 1949, again via Providence. The last two years, in the 1960's, saw it combined with the Owl south of Providence. This provided Owl passengers a possibility to get a buffet breakfast going into GCT that had not been available. i rode the Owl regularly during this period.
Look forward to RC's question.
again, would like rc's question and comparison of day express and state of maine worcester - new london times as i recall, the budds put on by buckey dumaine were no slouches, with an overall 40-45 mph average including about four or five stops. i recall returning to the line in an early 1950's FDC-car fan trip (FDC, a Mack bus body with generator replacing the transmission on clark b3 pcc interurban trucks.) track was good then. would have been economical to operate if buckey could have sold the unions on one-man operation, but all were put in storage and then sold overseas.
From another fan's work out of a 1953 NYNH&H ETT and posted on www.railroad.net ...
New London - Worcester via Norwich and Putnam 72.31 miles max speed 50 MPH. Typical timing including stops about 111 minutes for RDCs.
New London - Worcester via Providence 105.54 miles 70 MPH New London - Stonington, 75 MPH Stonington - Boston Switch (Jct for Worcester), 60 MPH Boston Switch - Worcester. State of Maine (much heavier than RDCs) took 135 min via this route.
The summer-only East Wind was routed via Hartford and Putnam via the "Air Line" during the summer of 1954 and 1955. When the hurricane hit in late 1955, it was the end of both the Air Line and the East Wind.
All the issues of the Guide that I have from November of 1947 and earlier show the State of Maine going through Norwich--and everything I have with a later date (Guides and public TT's) shows that it went through Providence.
In October of '44, the train was scheduled to take 2:06 both ways, except for Sunday morning train (nb), which was scheduled to take 2:28. Unless the track was bad, it must have been a smooth ride.
So here's the new question:
This steam powered east-west day train became north-south diesel powered train after World War II.
B&O Cincinnatian ---- rode it in its second role
1st appearance: Balt or Wash - Cincinnati
2nd appearance: Detroit - Cincinnati
i will confess that my 1938 - 1943 and 1946-1948 or 1949 trips were all in the summer, and possibly the State of Maine ran through Providence in the summer and through Norwhich in the winter for some of these years. You can check since you have access to the OGs and timetables. For the WWII years the routing must have been via Providence year-round.
was not the Pacific assigned to the steam 1st Cincinnatian streamlined by Otto Kuhler? (Sp?)
To be a little more precise, I have a January 1943 and an October 1945 Guide, as well as the 1947 one I mentioned; all three show the State of Maine going through Norwich. Apparently, it was not until well after the War that the route was changed permanently to be through Providence, though it did go through Norwich in June of 1930.
Dave is correct. The Cincinnatian was B&O's daytime train from Baltimore/Washington to Cincinnati. The Pacific was rebuit in B&O's Mount Clare Shops with Otto Kuhler designed shrouding, so there's some resemblance to PRR's sreamlined K4s's. Despite the lack of online population, C&O wanted to compete with the "Chessie" . A typical B&O low-budget streamliner, all of the cars were rebuilt heavyweights. Shifted in June 1950 to the Detroit-Cincinnati route, it survived until April 30 1971. The route north of Toledo was moved from B&O rights on MC(NYC) to C&O(PM) in the mid 1960s. At the end storage mail made up most of the business.
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