More hints: All names (esscept RR or RW) are geographical entities or descriptions. Also the full name of the interurban without the addition for the existing diesel frieght railroad remnant, is also the full name of a different freight railroad, in operation, that has no real connection with the interurban.
That should give it away.
I should have gotten this much earlier since I enjoy wordplay. The road in question is the Southern Indiana Railroad, the last surviving remnant of the original Indiana Railroad.
Exactly, and it is your question.
In its pre-NICTD existence, South Shore directly owned only the trackage between South Bend and the Illinois-Indiana state line. What is the name of the railroad that actually owned the trackage between Kensington (115th Street) and the state line, and who was the owner of that railroad?
Kensington & Eastern - owned by the ICRR
Mark
We have a winner. KCSfan, your question.
This train is always thought of and referred to as being "all Pullman" both before and after it was streamlined. In fact, however, following WW2 it was all Pullman over only part of its route and carried non-Pullman passenger cars over other portions. Name the train, the non-Pullman cars that it carried and the points between which they ran.
Crescent, NY Penn - NO, via PRR, Southern, West Point Rout, L&N. Regular coaches handled Atlanta - NO over West Point Rout and L&N. Later, coaches for occupancy added Washington - Charlotte and often carried empty to Atlanta. Applies in both directions. Finally, coaches added, combined with Southerner, rerouted via Birmingham, and renamed the Southern Crescent, PRR, Southern only.
Also, during certain exceptionally heavy traffic periods, when the El Cap was full, the Super Chief carried coaches Chi -LA and return, but this was done very quietly. Then there is the Panama LImited with the addition of the Magnolia Star.
It was not the Crescent nor was it a "sometimes" event. The service ran every day and was shown in OG's and timetables of the time. Keep in mind that this service was in effect in March 1946 and very possibly began at an even earlier date.
As far as I know, the only all-Pullman trains listed as such in 1946 were:
Merchants Limited, NYNH&H
20th Century
Broadway
General
Spirit of St. Louis
Florida Special
Orange Blossem Special (heavyweight until discontinued)
Royal Palm
Crescent
Lark
Panama Limited
possibly the Pioneer Lmtd
If I have left one out, notifiy me, please. If I have included one that was not listed as all-Pullman, also tell me and hopefully tell me which one. I am not including mixed trains that handled Pullmans but no coaches (Clifton Forge - Hot Springs, for example)
The question concerns just one single train not the entire lot that were considered to be all Pullman.
The train I am looking for is one of those that comes to just about everyone's mind when thinking of all Pullman trains. In fact this Limited was not all Pullman over much of its route but was definitely all first class.
In 1950, the Panama Limited carried IC parlor cars between Chicago and Carbondale and between Jackson, Miss., and New Orleans. The Chicago-Carbondale car survived into the era when coaches were added, but the southern car did not. In the last few years that the Panama carried an observation car, an IC observation parlor was put into service after one of the Pullman observation cars was wrecked.
Johnny
Bingo, Johnny is our winner. It was the IC parlor cars that made the Panama not all Pullman. Prior to streamlining in 1942 (IIRC) the train did not carry any parlor cars and was truly an all Pullman Limited. My Mar 1946 OG shows only the Chicago - Carbondale parlor car in the consist but not the other one. I don't know when the IC started running this car but it could have been as early as 1942. A 50's OG shows the addition of a New Orleans - Memphis parlor car to the Panama's consist. Looking forward to your question, Johnny.
When I rode the Panama, several times, 1965 - 1970, neglecting the last years' Magnolia Star busienss, which was not first class and was the Panama Limiited, the Carbondale - Chicago parlor was also the observationcar. Going south, after putting my luggage iin the roomette, I generally sat in that car until last call for dinner. I was under the impression that it was staffed by Pullman. What you are telling me is that is was not Pullman operated. Are you sure? Pullman does not only mean sleeper, but Pullman also operated parlor cars. Even buffet -dining parlor cars. For example, the PRR parlors on the NY - Philly clockers were Pullman operated. You could buy a Pullman multi-ride commutation ticket for those cars.
I remember the Carbbondale parlor-obs as a remodeled six-wheel-truck heavyweiight with a New Orleans French Quarter interior design.
Magnolia Star: The IC got permission around 1968 to discontinue the daylight City of New Orllleans (which I also rode, but generally not full length, example, NO - Jackson) if they would add coaches to the Panama. In the timetable it was listed as a separate all coach train, but was really just the coach portion of the Panama, and in the last months even shared the diner.
Unless you have evidence that the parlor was not operated by Pullman, I gave the correct answer earlier.
But possibly the OG says "railroad operated," Some railroads did that. It that Johnny does ineed have the correct answer.
During the period I rode, on the nights that I rode, there was never an observation car separate from thhe parlor car, but there may have been such earlier or on other nights.
On my initial trip, the names of each passenger were affixed to the door of each room, as on an ocean liner, but this practice did not continiue on subsequent trips. I never saw this on any other train.
I rode the IC's parlor-observation from Brookhaven to Jackson in July of 1965. The agent in Brookhaven did not want to be bothered with selling an IC space ticket, so I paid a cash fare to the conductor. Soon after we left Brook, he invited me into the drawing room, and he, the flagman, and I had a good conversation. I do not remember if he was one of the two Penn brothers who regularly held the Panama's run between Canton and New Orleans (each would be gone from McComb for twenty-four hours, and would be relieved by the other). I did not ride the Pannyma often but I was known to many IC men in road service; even men in freight service recognized me. When I was passing through New Orleans in the fall of 1971 (I had not seen any of the Louisiana Division men since 1965), one of the conductors saw me and we talked a little.
Question: what road operated the Tiresaver; what was the era in which it was operated; what was the appeal of its name; what class were most of its cars; what other cars did it carry?
daveklepper I was under the impression that it was staffed by Pullman. What you are telling me is that is was not Pullman operated. Are you sure? Pullman does not only mean sleeper, but Pullman also operated parlor cars. Even buffet -dining parlor cars. Unless you have evidence that the parlor was not operated by Pullman, I gave the correct answer earlier. But possibly the OG says "railroad operated," Some railroads did that. It that Johnny does ineed have the correct answer.
I was under the impression that it was staffed by Pullman. What you are telling me is that is was not Pullman operated. Are you sure? Pullman does not only mean sleeper, but Pullman also operated parlor cars. Even buffet -dining parlor cars.
Dave, you are absolutely correct in pointing out that some parlor cars were Pullman operated but not those on the Panama Ltd. In the equipment section of OG's of the time both cars are followed by the notation, "Illinois Central Tickets".
Would it have been possible for IC to have contracted with Pullman just to staff the car, with drinks and snacks and tickets all handled as IC material? Did any railroads adopt that procedure? That may have led to my impression that it was a Pullman operated car.
A second and even better reason was that the car did, if my memory is correct, have a day private room. On other parlor cars, one could find a day room which could be had by four 1st class and parlor seat tickets, and provided a private meeting room for four travelers. (One or two more could be crowded in with portable folding chairs in some cases.) On one business trip I and colleagues made use of such a room, possibly on the PRR-NYNH&H Senator, the Budd 1952 equipment.
But I must have thought it was another double-bedroom or master room, as available on the observation cars of many trains, without thinking through the fact that the car only went as far as Carbondale.
Interesting concept: Was the Super Chief really all-Pullman if the dining and lounge cars were staffed by the railroad? The answer of course is yes, because those are non-revenue cars and every paying passenger had to have a Pullman as well as a railroad ticket. So your question was a fair one, even if a tricky one.
In addition to the New Orleans French Quarter interior, my memory says it had a flat rear end, a train door, but I am not certain about a diaphragm. There were large windows each side of the train door, and the train door had a window as well. Great spot to watch the contraction of the RofW when leaving Chicago or its growth when arriving.
I think the "Tiresaver" was the original Auto Train. Garfield's, running between the existing terminals, over the RF&P and ACL-SCL. Second-hand coaches and sleepers, diners and lounge, and regular auto-carriers identacle to those used for delivery of auomobiles, except that either the brakes of the passenger equipment were modified to work with those of the autocarriers or visa-versa.
Dave:
Did the Pullman Company operate dining cars on a regular basis? I know that they had a few available for special service.
As information, McKenzie's "Dining Car Line to the Pacific" give an excellent account of NP's North Coast Limited dining service on the grueling St. Paul-Chicago-Seattle-St. Paul trip. The dining cars crews had their hardest jobs on the railroad, what with being on their feed about 16 hours a day in a hot kitchen and waiting on tables while the train in swaying. Amtrak still has those long hours.
Ed Burns
763-234-9306
At one time they did have full dining cars among their ooperations, but I am unsure just which trains these served, In my travel experience they only had "buffet-diner-parlor" (and sleeper-buffet diner cars) cars, which were half or so parlor seating, then four tables and small kitchen. These cars were run on trains that lacked any food service other than possibly a vendor selling cold sandwiches and drinks from a cart or carrying box (On the New Haven and Boston and Maine they were called "news butchers and they did also sell newspapers and magazines),, and Pullman decided their first-class passengers needed somethiing better. There were verry few of these cars in the lightweight era. The last I remember was on the State of Maine, a Pullman staffed New Haven (possibly Boston and Maine, but I think New Haven)car that had some bedrooms and some lounge or parlor seats and two tables for four each and a small kitchen. A light breakfast was served going into New York arriving at 8AM. Most sleeping car passengers received it (if they ordered it the night before) in their rooms, but I prefered sitting at the table. In the SofM's last days of operation it was combined with the Owl which was open for occupancy at Boston's South Station at 10pm, but actually left at 2a,m and was combined with the SofM in Providence. (The SofM did not use the direct line from Worcester to New London but ran on what is now the Providence and Worcester main line, and then the Shore Line.)
By the end of WWII there were a variety of arrangements with Pullman that were possible. Most railroads had full sleeping car contracts, where the cars were under lease to Pullman. Thi allowed Pullman to pull both railroad owned and Pullman pool cars as necessary to meet seasonal and other peak needs. Pullman also offered various arrangements with more railroad and less Pullman involvement.
Parlor cars that remained after WWII were mostly railroad operated and supplied by the RRs dining car commisaries. Wabash and PRR contracted with Pullman for parlor cars until the mid-1960s. SP cars were railroad operated from the 1930s on.
IC offered parlor cars on the Panama Limited and Green Diamond trains by the 1950s.
daveklepper I think the "Tiresaver" was the original Auto Train. Garfield's, running between the existing terminals, over the RF&P and ACL-SCL. Second-hand coaches and sleepers, diners and lounge, and regular auto-carriers identacle to those used for delivery of auomobiles, except that either the brakes of the passenger equipment were modified to work with those of the autocarriers or visa-versa.
If it is a freight piggyback operation of any type, then it is an unfair question, because this is a passenger forum. Please assure us it is a passenger operation.
Oh, yes, Dave, it was definitely a passenger operation--with thirteen revenue cars.
daveklepper If it is a freight piggyback operation of any type, then it is an unfair question, because this is a passenger forum. Please assure us it is a passenger operation.
Dave, while most questions relate to passenger trains, I disagree that this is strictly a passenger forum. I have gone back and found questions about freight operations and you might remember the following which was a reply you posted to one such question.
"Several railroads gathered Christmas trees and transported them to depots for distribution. I think this included the Bangor and Aroostick (spelling?), the Rutland, and possibly the Central Vermont. On others the frieght crews did it unnofficially. These were small whole trees and generally carried in regular box cars or gondolas."
Thanks for the correction. You all have my apologies.
A hint: Autotrain passes near one of the terminals used by the Tiresaver (the terminal no longer exists as such).
C&O had a load-your-car operation on the George Washington in the 1960s.
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