didn't remember that, wow!
The Tiresaver did not involve automobiles in any way; its revenue came from carrying passengers.
Johnny
Wartime train of the Florida East Coast (#5 & 6). Or did somebody answer this and I didn't see it buried in all the discussions?
You are the sole one to be anywhere near.
I could ask, "Which war?" Now, what was the appeal of the train, what were the termini and what were the cars in equipment?
I do not intend to take the "winnership" from Flying Crow. But if he is near correct, maybe not with the right numbers, possibly the FEC got use of the equipment of one of the through trains from the north laying over in Miami by running it to Jacksonville and back. It may have been the alternating equipment of the trains from Chicago, one day the Dixie Flagler, one day the South Wind, and one day the City of Miami. During WWI of course! If it could not make it to Jax and back in time, maybe it turned at an intermeidate point?
Dave, you barely touch on some of the cars that were in the consist, but the use of most of the cars more or less seems to have suggested the name. As to using the cars from the three Chicago-Miami streamliners, it would have been impossible, since each train was turned in Miami the day it arrived, as each had only one set of equipment--and there was little time to turn it, since it arrived in Miami in the afternoon and left in the late afternoon.
Jacksonville Terminal Company
From 1942 list I have:
Departures
5 Tiresaver Miami 3:00
Arrivals
6 Tiresaver Miami 8:45
I also dug out my friend, Seth Bramson's book, SPEEDWAY TO SUNSHINE. According to Seth, it was all coach
Buck, I believe you are correct that the Tiresaver started out in 1942 as an all coach train. I don't know when it started carrying Pullmans but the March 1946 OG shows five Chicago - Miami sleepers in its consist - two each from the Seminole and Southland and one from the Dixie Flyer.
Mark
Apparently, no one wants to tell us why the name Tiresaver" had appeal. It was quite appropriate to the period in which the train was inaugurated: World War II, when tires for civilian transport were rationed, and private owners of cars were glad to reduce the wear on their tires. I am sure that at least two of our participants remember this, though one was (I understand) a Big City dweller, for they are both older than I, and I remember it well, even though my family did not have a car.
Mark has told us what the non-coach revenue cars were--five Pullmans from three two-night-out trains from Chicago.
Next question, please.
Buck Dean (Flying Crow) sent me a PM asking that I take the next question so here goes.
What were the two longest "doodlebug" (or Motor as they were called in the timetables and OG's) runs in the continental US? Name the end point terminals of the runs, the railroads and the mileage of each.
If RDC cars count as doodlebugs, and I don't know why not, then Rock Island Memphis - Tucumcari and Western Pacific Sacramento (or Oakland?) - Salt Lake City ( Zepherette). These were both single-car operations. I will now try to find the mileages.
Memphis - Tucumcari was 874 miles and the Budd car movement may have been called "The Choctow Rocket," but was only a single Budd car when I saw it around 1960.
Now for the WP Zepherette. 784 miles Sacramento - Salt Lake City, but extended to Oakland would make it 982 miles.
Mileages from timetables accessed through the historical societies' website links.
Sorry Dave but the RDC's were never considered "doodlebugs". The term referred to their gas electric predecessors.
Santa Fe. Wichita to San Angelo? Over the old Orient?
However, I don't recall the other.
FC
Dave, you would be right if this question concerned RDC's but it doesn't. Refer back to the original question and you'll see that I'm looking for runs shown as Motors in the OG's. The RI train is identified, not as a Motor, but as the Choctaw Rockett in the OG's and, though it didn't run as far as Tucumcari but only between Memphis and Amarillo a distance of 762 miles, it was still the second longest RDC run in the US. Likewise the WP train is identified as the Zephyrette and its 928 mile route between Salt Lake City and Oakland Pier was the longest RDC run.
Buck did Santa Fe motor trains No's 45 & 46 actually run between Wichita and San Angelo? My source shows them running only over a part of that route between Kiowa, KS and San Angelo, a distance of437 miles, which in any event still makes this the longest doodlebug motor run that I know of. It still remains to come up with the second longest such run.
I have to accept your definition. You wrote the question. However, regarding the RI Budd, I saw the RDC with my own eyes at the Memphis station will riding through on a Kansas City Jacksonville ex-Meteor lightweight sleeper during dwell time and the departure board for the train at that time did say Tucumcari, I am certain of that. It may have been cut back shortly after that short Memphis visit. I remember thinking "Boy would I love to have the chance to ride that train." But I never did. I think they added a heavyweight, probably 12&1, to my train in Memphis, possibly the car to Bunxiwck? (Kansas City - Florida Special. My sleeper was still lettered for "The Meteor" ) Back to the RI Budd: Possibly there was a connection for Tucumcari, but the sign did not say connection?
I will now want to check the mileage for the PRR Red Bank - Trenton "Motor" and the PRR Trenton - Atlantic City motor. I doubt that they are in the running, however.
The third longest RDC run was probably Montreal - Boston, the Allouette rerouted via White River Jc. in its last years of operation, usually an mu'ed CP RDC and a B&M RDC.
daveklepper ..... regarding the RI Budd, I saw the RDC with my own eyes at the Memphis station will riding through on a Kansas City Jacksonville ex-Meteor lightweight sleeper during dwell time and the departure board for the train at that time did say Tucumcari, I am certain of that. It may have been cut back shortly after that short Memphis visit. I remember thinking "Boy would I love to have the chance to ride that train." But I never did. I think they added a heavyweight, probably 12&1, to my train in Memphis, possibly the car to Bunxiwck? (Kansas City - Florida Special. My sleeper was still lettered for "The Meteor" ) Back to the RI Budd: Possibly there was a connection for Tucumcari, but the sign did not say connection?
..... regarding the RI Budd, I saw the RDC with my own eyes at the Memphis station will riding through on a Kansas City Jacksonville ex-Meteor lightweight sleeper during dwell time and the departure board for the train at that time did say Tucumcari, I am certain of that. It may have been cut back shortly after that short Memphis visit. I remember thinking "Boy would I love to have the chance to ride that train." But I never did. I think they added a heavyweight, probably 12&1, to my train in Memphis, possibly the car to Bunxiwck? (Kansas City - Florida Special. My sleeper was still lettered for "The Meteor" ) Back to the RI Budd: Possibly there was a connection for Tucumcari, but the sign did not say connection?
Dave, you've got me looking now but all my sources show the Choctaw Rockette running only as far as Amarillo and only the Cherokee running between Amarillo and Tucumcari. Perhaps someone else can help us confirm if actually did run to Tucumcari. I doubt if you'd really have liked riding the Rockette over its entire route. 22-1/2 hrs on an RDC with no food or beverage service to me at least, would have been an endurance test rather than an enjoyable trip - a far cry from the Pullmans and Parlor Cars we both enjoyed so much.
KCSfan. Buck did Santa Fe motor trains No's 45 & 46 actually run between Wichita and San Angelo? My source shows them running only over a part of that route between Kiowa, KS and San Angelo, a distance of437 miles, which in any event still makes this the longest doodlebug motor run that I know of. It still remains to come up with the second longest such run.
I have egg on my face and need to make a correction. Regardless of whether Santa Fe No's 45 and 46 ran the full 539 miles between Wichita and San Angelo or only the 437 miles from Kiowa that would make this the second, not the first, longest Doodlebug Motor run. Another run just came to mind which I've found to be longer than 539 miles but only by a miniscule 2.7 miles. I haven't been able to confirm it but I'm 95% sure this other one was a Motor train.
Regarding the Budd car Memphis to Amarillo and perhaps Tucumcari (the car may have run through and just changed its name and number), I did have the experience of three of Morrie Kleibolt's steam to the Colorado Narrow Gauge Chicago Railroad Club excusions, summers 1960, '61, and '62. 15 hours in narrow seats from scrapped Denver buses in the nafrow gauge coaches between Alamosa and Durango with photo stops but no lunch stops, and only a cold box lunch loaded in coolers in the refrigorator car behiind the locomotive to be distributed en route. Would I do it again, yoou betcha! If I had made the trip, I would have stocked up on edibles at drinkables at a local supermarket in Memphis, or had the hotel where I stayed overnight prepare stuff for me. Presumably on the overnight portion of the trip, the car would not be more than half-full, and I would have two seats to provide some space to stretch out and sleep a bit or maybe even a pair of double seats facing each other with a suitcase in the space between.
I did have an MIT friend, Richard Seeley (I think), who did ride the Zepherette, and enjoyed the experience on the same basis as I have described.
Both OG and other sources confirm that RI's Choctaw Rockette ran "only" from Memphis to Amarillo. RI had three RDC's to cover the schedule so one car was always off being serviced. Of special interest was the overflow car for this service, the prewar Rocket low-profile observation 455 Missouri. Someone with great creativity had a baggage section installed on the round end of the car, leaving the former solarium windows intact.
But RDC's hauling trailers voided the guarantee! The New Haven even went to the trouble of repainting some 8200-series "American Flyers" silver to be trailers for RDC's, and Budd found out about it, notified the railroad, and they stopped. Didn't RI care about the guarantee? What I saw in Memphis was a single car.
Or when they added the overflow car, did they also add a diesel? To then haul a two-car train?
daveklepper Didn't RI care about the guarantee? What I saw in Memphis was a single car. Or when they added the overflow car, did they also add a diesel? To then haul a two-car train?
Didn't RI care about the guarantee? What I saw in Memphis was a single car.
RI, C&EI and M&St.L regularly hauled trailers behind their RDCs even though it voided the warranty. The dual 300 HP 6-110s gave a reasonable power to weight ratio for a two car train - about the same as an early Rocket behind a TA. RI's trailer was the very lightweight Missouri, C&EI used a P-S coach with an on-board heat source, and M&St.L used a silver-painted boxcar. C&O later hauled a heavyweight mail storage car behind its pair of ex-M&St.L RDC4's in West Virginia. RI may have paid the price for their trailer use as all five of their RDCs were eventually converted to motorless RDC/coach combines.
KCSfan Buck did Santa Fe motor trains No's 45 & 46 actually run between Wichita and San Angelo? My source shows them running only over a part of that route between Kiowa, KS and San Angelo, a distance of437 miles, which in any event still makes this the longest doodlebug motor run that I know of. It still remains to come up with the second longest such run. Mark
A 1954 OG was the source of the info I posted above regarding AT&SF motor trains No's 45 & 46. Upon checking a 1946 OG I found that indeed at the earlier date these trains ran all the way from Wichita to San Angelo via Viola, a distance of 519.3 miles.
Still looking for the longer route which ran entirely in the mid-west.
If GM&O (or predecessor Chicago & Alton) ran their motor trains all the way from Chicago to Kansas City that would come to a little more than 500 miles. My 1957 OG has the motor originating/terminating in Bloomington with a connection to/from Chicago.
Rob, in both GM&O and Alton times the Motor you refer to ran only between Bloomington and Kansas City, a distance of 356.4 miles, with connecting trains between Chicago and Bloomington as you point out.
You are within striking distance of the longest Motor run that I'm looking for.
IGN, not the GM&O, GM&N, RI or M&StL but you're ever so close - just a little more thought and you'll have it.
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