The line you are referring to is the Denver - Pueblo joint line with the northern portion Denver - Colorado Springs partly in competition with the Rock and its Rocky Mountain Rocket, the competition being the Denver Zephyr thru cars from Chicago to Colorado Springs. The 15 years are up to the discontinuance of the MP-D&RGW Colorado Eagle, with its MP dome cars St. L - Denver. The D&RGW Scenic Limited (named the Royal George for a while?) handled a Denver - Grand Junction or Salt Lake Citiy dome snack-bar or lounge coach, possibly a dome coach off the Denver Zephyr from Chicago to Colorado Springs, and AT&SF cars off the Chief Denver - Los Angeles. Both trains covered the entire Denver - Pueblo line, but the Burlington equipment only went as far south as Colorado Springs.
As a favor for the Rock Island, occasionally its equipment would also be on the train, balancing car requirements between Colorado Springs and Denver, as I observed. So sometimes four railroads' passenger equipment would be on the Scenic Limited/Royal George north of Colorado Springs. Plus of course head end equpment from other railroads.
The ex-CRI&P line is now owned by TRRA.
At least in part in competition with the Rock Island, for a period of about 15 years, this western railroad operated two train pairs over a 120 mile segment, some of it jointly operated. On 75 miles of this line, the trains carried dome cars belonging to three different railroads. Track owning railroad, dome car owning railroads and car city pairs.
Rob, yes, Rock Island just north of the Pike, on the backwards upside-down map. Your turn.
If you won't give me the St. Louis and Suburban, which actually got to the grounds, would you settle for the Rock Island? CRI&P's Kansas City line ran north of the fairgrounds.
daveklepper Louisiana Purchase?
Louisiana Purchase?
Credit due. Thanks Dave.
https://archive.org/stream/pennsylvaniarai00penn#page/n5/mode/2up
Excerpt from Railway and Engineering Review, Dec. 31, 1904
https://books.google.com/books?id=34FCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&q&f=true#v=onepage&q&f=true
Queen Adelaide's Coach, London & Northwestern Ry. This salon car… was built in London in 1842 for Queen Adelaide and is of interest as the first royal car and because it marks one of the first periods in the development from the stage coach to steam railway transportation; it is, in fact, nothing more than a large stage coach body mounted on trucks. Having been kept in a perfect state of preservation it is of great historical interest. The car is 21 ft. 9 ins. long by 11 ft. high and 6 ft. wide across the body. The foundation and framing are of English oak, the panels and case are mahogany, while the interior wood work is polished white hornbeam. The interior is upholstered magnificently in tuffed brocaded silk of the Georgian period in a light grey tint. Of the three compartments the foremost is an observation room, having windows to the front and sides. When Her Majesty used this coach a platform car was placed ahead of it to give an unobstructed view from this compartment. The second compartment is arranged with facing rows of seats running across the car, and the rear was used as a sleeping room. The use of this coach by the Queen at that period assisted in no small degree to dispel the prejudice of the public and helped to make railway traveling popular.
http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem?objid=1983-7001
Other than Wabash, what railroad was nearest the fairgrounds?
wanswheel The Indianapolis Journal, May 25, 1904 Delay in Time Changes - Vanderbilt Officials Make a Change… The Erie has issued orders that the road will delay its summer change in time to a date probably about June 19. The delay in the date was at the request of the passenger department, and was caused by the decision of the New York Central to hold off its change until the 19th. The alliance makes it desirable that the two systems regulate their transportation in the direction of the fair as near similarly as possible, but so far as could be learned yesterday, the exact date on which the new schedules will go into effect has not been determined. It is stated, however, that when they do go into effect there will be no Louisiana Purchase Limited, as was at first planned; at least, there will be no St. Louis train run on the schedule proposed for that one. The New York Central, in conjunction with the Lake Shore and the Big Four, will put on two world's fair trains, but they will be run with a schedule similar to the Southwestern Limited. It was at first planned to run the Louisiana Purchase Limited on a schedule as fast as the Twentieth Century Limited, but it was discovered that getting one train over the road without paying rebate was all that the operating department could be justly called upon to do.
The Indianapolis Journal, May 25, 1904
Delay in Time Changes - Vanderbilt Officials Make a Change…
The Erie has issued orders that the road will delay its summer change in time to a date probably about June 19. The delay in the date was at the request of the passenger department, and was caused by the decision of the New York Central to hold off its change until the 19th. The alliance makes it desirable that the two systems regulate their transportation in the direction of the fair as near similarly as possible, but so far as could be learned yesterday, the exact date on which the new schedules will go into effect has not been determined. It is stated, however, that when they do go into effect there will be no Louisiana Purchase Limited, as was at first planned; at least, there will be no St. Louis train run on the schedule proposed for that one. The New York Central, in conjunction with the Lake Shore and the Big Four, will put on two world's fair trains, but they will be run with a schedule similar to the Southwestern Limited. It was at first planned to run the Louisiana Purchase Limited on a schedule as fast as the Twentieth Century Limited, but it was discovered that getting one train over the road without paying rebate was all that the operating department could be justly called upon to do.
Wanswheel, you got it... this is the train I was looking for:
Louisiana Purchase Limited
NYC/LS&MS/Big 4
New York-St. Louis
In January 1904 a number of newspapers carried announcements that New York Central was planning to expand its services for the St. Louis Worlds Fair and "Special cars of the most approved pattern are now being built for that purpose. One new train will be called the "Louisiana Purchase Limited."" By March, NYC was placing newspaper ads, priming the pump for the new train, even claiming that it will be equivalent to the 20th Century Limited. The ad below is from the New York Sun of March 13, 1904:
Further elaboration of the new service was found in the St. Louis Republic of March 26, 1904:
Unfortunately, May 1 came and went without the startup of the new train. By the end of May, further news reports stated that the Louisiana Purchase Limited would not operate after all (see wanswheels quote above). Instead, an Exposition Flyer was operated and, later in the year, a westbound-only Exposition Limited, both on schedules that were comparable to other NYC New York-St. Louis trains.
Looking 112 years after the fact, it can only be speculated as to why the Louisiana Purchase Limited was scrapped. One issue may have been the proposed speeded up schedule of the train (that is mentioned in wanswheel's newspaper quote). Yes, the 20th Century Limited was celebrated for its fast schedule, but there was grumbling within the industry that such faster trains were not as profitable due to the extra resources and expenses required to maintain such an operation, and therefore should not be operated to begin with.
Another issue, in my opinion, was that NYC may have realized that potential traffic for such a deluxe service was just not there. The Century took advantage of the quantity of high-end New York-Chicago traffic to justify its existence, but a similar train to a Worlds Fair, NYC possibly discovered, would not have that level of high-end traffic to consistently fill a deluxe train. If you look at newspaper archives during this time period, the vast majority of railroad advertisements concerning the Worlds Fair focus on discount rates and special reduced fares, not deluxe services.
Another issue is what happened to the deluxe Pullman equipment that was being produced for the Louisiana Purchase Limited. My guess is that it was instead assigned to the Southwestern Limited, the premier NYC train on the New York-St. Louis route at the time.
It seems that the Louisiana Purchase Limited could be nominated to join the "could have been" group of trains, which includes the Golden Rocket and Chessie.
Wanswheel, you get the next question.
wanswheel Excerpt from Merck’s Report, August 1904 Members residing in New York or New England casting about for the best road on which to travel to St. Louis will do well to consider the claims of the New York Central Lines. The trains of these lines are as luxurious as modern car builders can furnish, are supplied by the newest features adopted by the Pullman Company and run from Union Passenger Stations in the principal centers of the East. For safety and comfort, as well as for fast time and modern equipment, the New York Central Lines are most popular. The through train service between New York and St. Louis via the New York Central includes the Southwestern Limited, Cincinnati and St. Louis Limited and the Exposition Flyer, leaving noon, afternoon and night…From Buffalo to St Louis the through trains of the New York Central Lines run over Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway, along the shores of Lake Erie to Cleveland thence via the Big Four Route and Indianapolis to St Louis.
Excerpt from Merck’s Report, August 1904
Members residing in New York or New England casting about for the best road on which to travel to St. Louis will do well to consider the claims of the New York Central Lines. The trains of these lines are as luxurious as modern car builders can furnish, are supplied by the newest features adopted by the Pullman Company and run from Union Passenger Stations in the principal centers of the East. For safety and comfort, as well as for fast time and modern equipment, the New York Central Lines are most popular. The through train service between New York and St. Louis via the New York Central includes the Southwestern Limited, Cincinnati and St. Louis Limited and the Exposition Flyer, leaving noon, afternoon and night…From Buffalo to St Louis the through trains of the New York Central Lines run over Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway, along the shores of Lake Erie to Cleveland thence via the Big Four Route and Indianapolis to St Louis.
OK...good guess, (and you got the right railroads) but it's not what I'm looking for, especially in light of the number of "Exposition" trains that operated during the fair. Read my original question - especially the first sentence. Also, keep in mind that the excerpt you quoted shows what actually ran during the fair - not was proposed.
I'm going to speculate that despite initial claims that the train would be an equal to the 20th Century Limited in terms of equipment and speed, George Daniels had a miss on this proposed train.
OK, wanswheel got the event (and in turn, the time frame) this train was to operate under. We still need the train name, operating railroads and endpoints.
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/print_friendly.php?flash=true&page=transcript&doc=18&title=Transcript+of++()#no-1
https://archive.org/stream/worldsfairauthen00offi#page/n7/mode/2up
daveklepper Louisiana Purchase? And was there really a planned train by this name? New Orleans would be one end-point, but the other could be anywhere from Birmingham to New York; Jackson to Chicago.
Louisiana Purchase? And was there really a planned train by this name? New Orleans would be one end-point, but the other could be anywhere from Birmingham to New York; Jackson to Chicago.
You got the treaty, but the cities you mention are not it. Now we need the actual train name, operating railroads and endpoints.
The major event the train was supposed to coinside with had a tie in with the anniverary of the treaty.
wanswheel Was the treaty still in force in the 21st century? For examples… Treaty of peace and amity between the United States and Great Britain, signed at Ghent December 24, 1814. Treaty relating to the boundary line, transit of persons, etc., across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (Gadsden Treaty), signed at Mexico December 30, 1853. http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/218912.pdf
Was the treaty still in force in the 21st century? For examples…
Treaty of peace and amity between the United States and Great Britain, signed at Ghent December 24, 1814.
Treaty relating to the boundary line, transit of persons, etc., across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (Gadsden Treaty), signed at Mexico December 30, 1853.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/218912.pdf
The treaty in question covered a transaction between the U.S. and another country. So you can say the transaction that treaty covered still benefits the U.S. today.
For the question....
This passenger train name refers to a treaty the Federal Government signed with another country. The operating railroad announced a new train with this name, claiming that the new train will have equipment that will equal that of its number one train. It was to run in conjunction with a major event at the time, but most likely the railroad ended up not utilizing this name.
Name, railroad and endpoints.
Very good; you are now on the hook!
Eventually, the only sleeper on this train was a Chicago-Bitmingham car, which was dropped in about 1967, leaving the train as coach only--but still with a diner Chicago-Carbondale.
Johnny
Deggesty ZephyrOverland Deggesty What Chicago-Florida train had for a time a Chicago-Savannah observation car? How did the car reach Savannah? The Seminole handled a Chicago-Savannah observation-sleeper, operating in that train from around 1932-1950. Central of Georgia handled the sleeper in its Atlanta-Savannah trains, the switchoff between the Seminole and the Savannah trains occuring at Macon. Myron Bilas Good, Myron--but the Seminole did not go through Macon; however, the car did go through there. What was the point at which the car was switched? I could also have asked for one reason that the car was dropped.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty What Chicago-Florida train had for a time a Chicago-Savannah observation car? How did the car reach Savannah? The Seminole handled a Chicago-Savannah observation-sleeper, operating in that train from around 1932-1950. Central of Georgia handled the sleeper in its Atlanta-Savannah trains, the switchoff between the Seminole and the Savannah trains occuring at Macon. Myron Bilas
Deggesty What Chicago-Florida train had for a time a Chicago-Savannah observation car? How did the car reach Savannah?
What Chicago-Florida train had for a time a Chicago-Savannah observation car? How did the car reach Savannah?
The Seminole handled a Chicago-Savannah observation-sleeper, operating in that train from around 1932-1950. Central of Georgia handled the sleeper in its Atlanta-Savannah trains, the switchoff between the Seminole and the Savannah trains occuring at Macon.
Myron Bilas
Good, Myron--but the Seminole did not go through Macon; however, the car did go through there. What was the point at which the car was switched?
I could also have asked for one reason that the car was dropped.
You are right, the Savannah car was switched at Columbus, being handled on CoG's Columbus-Macon-Savannah trains.
The Chicago-Savannah obs-sleeper was dropped when The Seminole's schedule structure was revamped and sped up in 1950. When this ocurred, the old CoG Seminole schedule remained as a unnamed Birmingham-Columbus train. The Savannah sleeping car line became Chicago-Columbus, cut back further to Birmingham shortly thereafter. Also at this time, CoG operated a short-lived Birmingham-Savannah sleeper on The Seminole's old schedule.
I'll narrow it down a little--I was looking through a 1943 issue of the Guide.
Johnny has the correct answer. UP's cut-rate roomettes didn't sell well enough for them to last beyond the 1956-57 winter season. Shortly after the C of D was "combined" with the City of Portland by the simple expedient of routing the C of P via Denver.
The DZ's through cars to Colorado Spring were cut back to Denver when the Royal Gorge/Colorado Eagle was discontinued Jan 1, 1967. There were still two Slumbercoaches on the DZ, operated in a pool with North Coast Limited's Slumbercoaches. As far as I know the Slumbercoaches remained for at least a while after the Amtrak takeover. Like other Burlington trains, cars were added and subtracted on a seasonal basis, so if only one Slumbercoach ran, it would be the CS car.
By the time I rode, only the thru car to Colorado Springs. Any one know when the one only to and from Denver was discontinued?
Slumbercoach. The DZ had one Chicago-Denver and one Chicago-Colorado Springs (D&RGW Denver-Colorado Springs).
One more PRR one then it's somebody else's turn:
In 1956, UP borrowed two PRR 21 roomette cars for Chicago-Denver service to meet a competitive train's new service offering. What was the service name painted on the side of both these cars and the competition's? Big hint - the year is significant.
Redrye please ask the next question as I will be out of town for several days.
The Overland only participated in coast-to-coast service before C&NW dropped out. It carried (on alternate days) two-tone gray Pullmans from PRR's General and NYC's Commodore Vanderbilt. I told you it was a hanging curve!
PRR's Californa Zephyr car Silver Rapids ran on the opposite days from the Overland service. New York Central provided a Budd 10-6 from the Valley series for its CZ car. Sometime around 1954 - before the MILW takeover of UP trains - the Overland cars shifted to the City of San Francisco as both C&NW and UP downgraded the Overland to a secondary train. SP surprisingly kept its end up for several years after that, including adding homemade domes, with the Overland getting conecting cars off the City of St. Louis at Ogden.
rcdrye A hanging curveball: Some PRR Pullmans were painted in two-tone gray for through service in the Super Chief. Some more were painted in the same scheme for through service with a different train. Name the second train.
A hanging curveball:
Some PRR Pullmans were painted in two-tone gray for through service in the Super Chief. Some more were painted in the same scheme for through service with a different train. Name the second train.
Was it the Overland?
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