WWII prevented both systems from converting more lines, although one of the systems probably would have used gas and then diesel buses, the other firmly commited to trolleybuses, and it is the surviving system. But the other system installed the city's first TT line, still TT under the surviving system. The surviving system never stopped employing rail, and after great rail contraction has had expansion. But TT lines outnumber rail lines.
Both rail lines run by the same comopany, one replaced by TTs by that company and one by a different system. One reason for replacement was requriement for two-man crews on streetcars. Both TT lines are still TT and run by the same system. Now should be a giveaway.
CORRECTION×£ ONE COMPANY RAN BOTH THE CONVERTED RAIL LINES, AND THE TRACAKLESS INSTALLATIONS WERE BY TWO SYSTEMS. APOLOGIES
As far as I know, there is only one city in North America that had two different companies providing transit service where both converted one rail line each to trackless trolley operation before WWII and after the Depression. Name the city and the two systems and give whatever additional details you have, including specifics on the rail lines converted, one of which had extremely important historic interest. Give details on any surviving equipment both rail and trolleybus, from these specific lines.
OK...2nd largest back then! Great stuff
Albany was the first second largest city in N.Y. State, and Hudson was the first third largest. Both were in the top 24 nationally in the first U.S. census.
https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab02.txt
Brooklyn became the second second largest in 1840.
https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab07.txt
Buffalo became the third second largest when Brooklyn ceased to be a city.
https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab13.txt
https://ia600300.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/2/items/streetrailwayrev11amer/streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2.zip&file=streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2/streetrailwayrev11amer_0039.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0
https://ia600300.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/2/items/streetrailwayrev11amer/streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2.zip&file=streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2/streetrailwayrev11amer_0040.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0
https://ia600300.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/2/items/streetrailwayrev11amer/streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2.zip&file=streetrailwayrev11amer_jp2/streetrailwayrev11amer_0041.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0
http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/PVT/Official_Guide/AHFL-1906.html 1906 timetable
"The company did operate under various names, but all of them included the name of the northernmost city, which was the second most important, if not the second largest, city in New York State." - rcdrye
I found the very article you provided the link to yesterday but dismissed it as Albany is not the 2nd largest city in New York State. It's not even close.
Buffalo, Rochester, Syacuse and Yonkers are all larger in population. If instead you are relying on the second most important because it is the state capital then I say that's a matter of opinion! The Buffalo Bills and the Buffalo Sabres are far more important than a bunch of self important narcissistic politicians.
I'll accept that for an answer. The best known name for the line was the "Albany-Hudson Fast Line", though that was never the corporate name. The cars with poles, pans and shoes were bought from Cincinnati Car in 1925 (straight sides, not curved sides) and used until passenger service ended in 1929, then sold to the Fonda, Johnstown and Gloversville. Under the then-current corporate name the Albany Southern ran freight service until 1931, then was dormant until the rails were pulled up in 1938. Street running in Albany and Hudson, third rail between, including the B&A interchange in Chatham.
Here's a link to the photo on page 92 of William Middleton's classic "The Interurban Era"
https://books.google.com/books?id=xHSSBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=albany+hudson+fast+line+60&source=bl&ots=KKFp7aMyBG&sig=C_DVeH5OpLztKDVbtDtNbqOfzQA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWsu2ggqTOAhXHNx4KHS2fBgcQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=albany%20hudson%20fast%20line%2060&f=false
THEN IT MUST HAVE RUN SOUTH FROM ALBANY, ALBANY TO CHATHAM OR ALBANY TO HUDSON. CHATHAM IS WHERE MILK CAME FROM THE RUTLAND AND WENT TO BOSTON ON THE BOSTON AND ALBANY AND TO NEW YORK ON THE HARLEM DIVISION. I WILL TRY TO FIND THE NAMME OF THE LINES BETWEEN THSE POINTS, SERVER CURRNETLY DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH BANDWIDTH.;
Miningman Buffalo, Rochester and Lockport Rwy.
Buffalo, Rochester and Lockport Rwy.
Wrong end of upstate NY, and BR&L never used third rail shoes (or pans).
The company did operate under various names, but all of them included the name of the northernmost city, which was the second most important, if not the second largest, city in New York State.
Doesn't the Catham Line I posted meet that requirement?
Maybe you are looking for the same line under a new name after reorganization?
Both ends of the line were very nearly at sea level with the middle up in the Berkshire foothills.
Chatham, Wallencenber, and Lake Erie Railway
The third-rail line made freight connections with two New York Central System family members in the same town where one of the lines got a daily milk train with cars from upstate New York and Vermont.
Kaydeeross? (Sp?)
Like the rest of the Beebe Syndicate lines, A&S used poles. The line I'm looking for was a very early third rail line, predating the AE&C and Puget Sound Electric.
I'm not sure where the line planned to use the pans, as it was third rail except for street operation at each end. As far as I know, only two cars had them, both of which later went to another upstate interurban.
Guessing, Auburn and Syracuse Electric Ry.?
This interurban used pans on passenger equipment only for a brief interval in the 1920s before passenger operation ended in 1929, but continued with third rail (and trolley) operation for freight for a couple of years longer. It's sometimes listed as a 1200V third rail line, though it was so early (1899) that it was almost certainly 600V.
New York State Railways used NYC-style underrunning third rail over West Shore tracks between Syracuse and Utica. This line was of a more rural nature, serving only one real city.
New York State Railways. Nearly all lines trolley wire, but the Syracuse - Utica interurban used third rail, and I suppose the predicessor company might have used pantographs at one point. Trolley wire was, of course, used on the street trackage, mostly shared with streetcars, in Utica and Syracuse. In its best days, New York State Railways was owned or mostly owned by the New York Central System.
I guess I'll stick with current collecters. This New York interurban had equipment with poles, pans and third rail shoes. The pans were short-lived, but the third rail stayed. Third rail was overrunning, not NYC style.
Wow! I had no idea -- I'd thought of the B&O electrification as using those offset pans to the center elevated conductor.
I get no points for what was essentially an informed guess. Ask another one.
Overmod Baltimore and Ohio in the tunnels?
Baltimore and Ohio in the tunnels?
OvermodIs this not the lumber railway we had a similar question about only a few months ago?
Nope - Red River Lumber used side-reaching pans on otherwise normal overhead wire (and also extension cords). What I'm looking for was part of an important trunk-line electrification that lasted until after WWII, even if it wasn't all that long. The original current collection did look something like Red River Lumber's.
GN had Reading-like "shoes" on their Y and Z class electrics. Pennsy removed them from the Ys they bought from GN.
rcdryeIf you (Overmod) were thinking of the "pole" on the long end of a Virginian EL-C (a C-C electric), it was used as a bus connector so that only one pantograph was required for a pair of them.
I knew nothing about that, and thanks for telling me.
It was fun enough seeing the 'shoes' between cars on the old Reading MUs that I thought accomplished a similar purpose. 11kV you could just reach up and touch... !
rcdryeAfter its initial electrification had trouble with pickup, this company modified its installation with special booms to allow pickup from a third rail some distance from the running rails.
Is this not the lumber railway we had a similar question about only a few months ago?
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