PRR's was Hudson and Manhattan (today's PATH). Keystones were on some of the cars until the late 1960s. So obvious I overlooked it entirely.
Tne New Haven, the Central, and the LIRR all had tank engines, the LIRR supplementing its fleet with second-handers from the Brooklyn United Elevated. All three also had short open-platform coaches with a width of only nine-feet for use on these services. After electrification with AC overhead, the New Haven's ran in Hartford - Middletown commuter service for some time.
The PRR did not have tank engines, as far as I know. The PRR had narrow cars in the steel era. Why? And they were identicle to.....?
The first electric LIRR MUs were also narrow, nearly identicle to the first IRT steel cars. So which bridge did they cross?
There was only one PRR service over rapid transit tracks, and it lasted until the whole opration was rapid transit with a new agency. Here we are talking about equipment and crews. It is obvious and well known , and the service certainly exists today. May even be extended soon.
One line of which railroad really preserved all of 19th Century operaton practice until after WWII and which elevated terminal wouild it use originally? In Manhattan on welevated tracks, but relocated to the Bronx on its own tracks when the elevated was extended.
Regarding the LIRR opereating over one of the bridges: it ran first to a ferry then extended over the bridge, obviously only when the elevated line itself was extended over the bridge. Then the LIRR steel MUs replaced the narrow wood cars and tank engines. But the elevated continued to use open-platform cars, composits built as MUs and not converted from steam-hauled coaches, the last open-platform cars built for NYCitiy rapid transit and last used on the Myrtle Avenue Elevated. When finally replaced by steel cars, they were replaced by steels displaced from elsewhere on the BMT system, after WWI, and after the LIRR service had ceased.
Actually, I don't have a lot of reference material on the New York area, so much more digging is required than I have had time for in the last couple of weeks. Here's what I'm pretty certain about:
LIRR cars operated over the BMT including one of the bridges across the east river. LIRR had a fairly large fleet of elevated-style tank locomotives. NYC had a tunnel connection to the subway designed into Grand Central, though it wasn't completed. All of the other possibilities seem to me to end up in the Bronx, without crossing into Manhattan.
PRR and LIRR's electrification may have been compatible with rapid transit. I haven't bee able to confirm the third rail spacing and height.
Thanks for the correction. Being that knowledgable, I expect you to thoroughliy answer the question! Not necessary to know all three of the services for the lasst of the four railroads..
PRR's Pennsylvania Tunnel and Terminal Railroad owned all four (well, six if you count the North River tubes). PT&T went undivided into Penn Central and Amtrak ownership. I guess the MTA wanted PRR to continue paying taxes after MTA bought the LIRR.
My understanding isthat originally two of the East River Penn. Sta. tunnels were actually under LIRR ownership. Am I wrongon this?
Here is a complete series of hints that should prod a complete answer. There were a total of six such operations of which I am aware. Three railroads had one each, and one railroad had three.
One railroad used only station and tracks for run arouind. This steam operation lasted after the elevated line was electrified. Then the elevated line was extened over a portion of railroad line, and a new interchange emerged with the railroad on a stub-end passenger terminal and the elevated through on its own tracks into the only subway tunnels constructed and used only by elevated trains, which are now out of use and sealed. But the extension and its tunnels were used about 20 years after theelevated line was abandoned, and its abandonment occured shortly after passenger service stopped on the steam railroads specific line, passenger service by then dieselized. The steam railroad continiued an extensive passenger service, but not on this line, a line enjoyed by railfans for its 19th Century railroading into much of the 20th Century.
The second railroad operted a specific passenger operation over a single-track connection to the elevated line when both were steam operated. When the elevated was electrified, the steam operation was cut back, and an elevated train shuttle operated just over the conection, with across the platfrom transfer at both ends. Then the steam road also electrified, with the same service arrangement. And then a new electrified nominally separate railroad also provided service to connect with the shuttle. The original steam-roads specific service was abandoned before the new service was abandoned, and the shuttle disconotinued between these two abandonments, since passengers had a short walk to avoid using the shuttle, and this walk was put under a roof. All the elevated tracks have long been gone, although the connection outlasted the passenger service and was used on at least one fan-trip as well as for new car delivery. Most of the electrified steam railroad rout exists with intensive passenger service today, but the not the passenger service that connected to the shuttle or in steam days continued over the elevated line.
The third case only existed in the classic electrified era, and the whole operation still exists today, but is consisdered entirely rapid transit. Even the part of the steam railroad that saw freight trains as well as the through service only sees rapid transit today. Entirely under one management, successor to the original rapid transit operator.
The first of the fourth railroad's thru operation over elevated tracks involved a ramp from the approach to its usual downtown terminal to bring trains closer to businesses and to a ferry terminal. It existed for a few years after the elevated was electrified, still with steam railroad locomotives, the last use of steam in passenger service on an elevated line, but ended when the railroad and its terminal were reconstructed along with electrification. The elevated is completely gone, but the railroad portion is alive and well with the original owner, seeing frequent passenger service.
The second of this railroad's operation was seasonal. It involved trains from a ferry terminal (very different from that above) to pleasure area and beaches. On the tracks shared with elevated trains, in season one could see this railroad's excursion steam trains, after electrification trolley-pole-equipped elevated cars, and streetcars all sharing the double-track surface line. the operation stopped a few years into the 20th Century. The rapid transit trains today use an elevated structure, the surface tracks under the structure for many years had streetcars and freight trains, but are now gone, as is the connecting curve that served as a freight and new-car-delivery interchange track for many years. The railroad portion is an important freight line withoiut passenger service, still with the original owner. Once electrified, its importance is somewhat less and includes of half of a unique New York City operation that once was far from unique.
The third of the fourth railroad's operation was seasonal. Steam trains operated to and from a third ferry terminal to and from a beach. After elevated and railroad electrifcation the line was extended by-passing the ferry terminal, and then was extended again. The original electric mu cars of the railroad were used on this line, and it was its first passenger service into Manhattan, using the tracks shared with the elevated trains. After the railroad had its own route into Manhattan, this seasonal service was discontinued. The elevated still exists. A small protion of the railroad right-of-way is out of service, and the rest is operated as part of the rapid transit system, very extensivelyi rebuilt and not using the throughs ervice route.
Another hint, a service discussed on this Forum in the past: The first entrance of equipment of this railroad into Manhattan, electrically, several years before what is usualliy thought of as its first entrance to Manhattan. Seasonal. MU.
Not in the previous hints.
More hintsd? In most cases, steam locomotives of the railrioads operated under trolley wire or next to third rails where the elevated line already had been electrified. For a few years.
Hint: In one of the more obscure cases, the tracks at the Manhattan station platform, plus throat area for run-around, only, and the service was one of the last steam-operated passenger services within New york city, but not actually in Manhattan.
in a different cae, steam passenger trains operatedover elevated tracks which were also hadnling steam elevated trains. When both were electrified, different systems were used, and the portion of the railroad's operatrion on elevated tracks was repalced by a dedicated elevated train shuttle. This eventually, for some time provided a shuttle conntection to two electrified passenger operatoins, not one, the one belonging to officially a different railroad having two routes. The original railroad also had more than one electrified rout, but the elevated-train shuttle only served one.
LIRR is both an owner and a tenant in Manhattan. Everything between "A" and Harold (in Queens) is Amtrak-owned. LIRR owns the West Side Yard west of "A".
Today, Amtrak, Metro North, New Jersey Traqnsit, and the Long Island Railroad regularly operate intensive passenger service of their own into Manhattan Island. NJT is a tenant of Amtrak, the only exception as only a tenant. In the classic period, there was PRR, LIRR, and NYCentral, with LV and NYNH&H as tenants, the latter in two places with three all three of the owner railraods.
But in the steam rapid transit days, elevated lines before electrification, only the NYCentral and NYNH&H enterred Manhattan, with the latter a tenant of the former. Yet, at one time or another, all railroads entering Manhattan, with the exception of LV, had operations on rapid transit tracks, either in the steam era, the classic era, or a bit of both.
Provide asnwers as where the New York Central used rapid transit tracks, where the New Haven used rapid transit tracks, where the Long Island used rapid transit tracks, where the PRR used rapid transit tracks, or at least equipment owned by it and operated by its crews entered a rapid transit operation. With at least one railroad, there was more than one such case, but as long as you cover all four railroads you will be a winner. The operations need not be year-round.
daveklepper, since you got the four railroads first, why don't you go ahead and ask the next question...
At this point ZO has the most correct answer.
GM&O 1 (Limited) MP/T&P 1 (Texas Eagle West Texas section)
carried a Chicago - Fort Worth sleeper
T&P 1 (Texas Eagle) SP 1 (Sunset Limited) carried a Dallas-Los Angeles sleeper.
Change points were Dallas and Fort Worth (The train did stop in Grand Prairie, but it was a flag stop...)
Eastbound the Sunset car travelled in train 7 (Westerner).
It looks like this condition may have existed only after MP train 7 was discontinued between St. Louis and Dallas/Fort Worth around 1955. In 1958 the Chicago car was extended to El Paso on T&P 1 and 2. With a 9 hour wait in El Paso eastbound, you could reverse the route and take train 2 all the way to Chicago, marred by a short interval on MP 22 from Little Rock to St. Louis. GM&O 2 (Abraham Lincoln) did the honors north of St. Louis.
Apparently I posted this at the same time as the previous poster. He must be correct, since he has access to the Guide/ I do not.
Based on June 1954 info:
GM&O #1 - Abraham Lincoln - Chicago-St. Louis
MP #1 - Texas Eagle - St. Louis-Texarkcana
T&P #1 - Texas Eagle - Texarkana-El Paso
SP #1 - Sunset Limited - El Paso-Los Angeles
As for the sleeping car options, you can take a St. Louis-El Paso sleeper (which originated in New York) and make a change in El Paso to one of the Sunset Limited's New Orleans-Los Angeles sleepers,
OR
change in Dallas to a through Dallas-Los Angeles sleeper that operated via the Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited.
The above assumes sleeping accomodations St. Louis-Los Angeles only.
Then the railroads are the GM&O, MP, T&P, and SP, with the Sunset Limited being the westernmost train. A through Chicago - El Paso sleeper (Texas Eagle), and a through New Orleans - LA (or SF) sleeper, with the car-change points either San Antonio or El Paso.
I found that in February of 1950 there was a Chicago-Hot Springs car on the GM&O's Abraham Lincoln and the MP's Southerner and there was a St. Louis-Los Angeles car on the MP Southerner/T&P Westerner/SP Sunset Limited. This arrangement did exist in the reverse direction, except that the GM&O train was the Midnight Special. Little Rock and St. Louis would have been the change points.
Johnny
No through cars St. Louis-LA. Two of the four railroads are correct. One of the missing ones is affilated with one you named.
Besides, both the Scenic Liited and Los Angeles Limited were gone by the 1950s!
Sleeping car No. 1, Chicago - Kansas City via the Abraham Lincoln on the GM&O to St. Louis and the Missouri Pacific to Kansas City on the Scenic Limited. Sleeping car No. 2, St. Louis - Los Angeles on the Missouri Pacific St. Louis - Pueblo, the D&RGW Pueblo - Salt Lake City, again Scenic Limited, and the UP Salt Lake City - LA on the Los Angeles Limited. Change of cars possible in St. Louis or Kansas City.
A great way to go! Wonder if a competitive thru fare was puiblished.
For most of the 1950s, it was possible to stay on a train 1 from Chicago to Los Angeles, using trains of four railroad companies. Using these train 1s, it was possible to make the trip by changing sleepers only once, with two possible places to change cars. There was no match for this eastbound.
Need the four railroads, the train names, and the places to change sleeping cars.
Still waiting for rc's question.
Not to replace, but to allow Silver Banquet to get a major overhaul, more than coujld be done on the Wednesday blitz, and wishing not to have Silver Shop as the regular replacement. Pretty sure Silver Banquet was back in service when I rode only to Grand Junction after the Thistle mudslide.
Checked with the book Never on Wednesday where the word "BAckup" was used and not "replace."
The food and ambiance were just as terrific in either car.
Anyway, next question please, rc.
Anyway, next question please.
D&RGW bought a diner (UP 4801) from UP to replace their original CZ diner Silver Banquet.
Hints: If iy exist today, it is owned by its former owner.
Its use was not changed when the DRRGW bought it.
Its former owner did not have to ship it very far to get it to the D&RGW.
It did have to be repainted externally to fit the Rio Grande Zephyr.
It was a standby piece of equipment primarilly, but also was used on business trains when not needed on the Rio Grande Zephyr.
Correction: From the discontinuance of the WP portion of the CA to the Amtrak startup in 1971, the train was not officialliy the Rio Grande Zephyr but just "California Service." And the train between Salt Lake City and Ogden had a thru sleeper form Chicago as well as a coach or coach and combine. And it was duiring this period that the D&RGW train between these to points was discontinued. (t had been started only with the end of the WP service to Oakland.) With the van or taxi subsittuing. Whe I used it eastbound in Spring 1970, I was the only passenger, Ogden - Salt Lake City, and the SP stationmaster at Ogden called a cab.
During periods of normal traffic, the Rio Grande Zephyr had the obs-lounge-bedroom car on the end, with the rooms sold for day occupancy for those that wished privacy; the diner, and two or three dome coaches, and the combine. The converted roomette to flat-top coaches were used only during periods of heavy traffic, and one of the four dome coaches was usually in for maintenance. Silver Shop, the Cable-Car-Room-dome-lounge substitiuted for the diner, with a somewhat reduced menue, but still good food. or for the obs when either was in for servicing more that the usual one-day blitz on Wednesday.
The purchase of this new-for-the-D&RGW car changed this a bit. And it arrived in good working condition without needing much attention to put it in service, with a new paint job.
As dicussed on this forum, the D&RGW ran its own Rio Grande Zephyr Denvr - Salt Lake City, with at first a one-coach-and-the combine extension to Ogdenreplaced b yvan/taxi service, using ex-California Zephyr equipment. An exception was the combine, which had seen most service on the Prospector, built by Pullman, not Budd. About two-thirds through the life-span of the streamliner, 1970-1983, the D&RGW actually bought one piece of passenger rolling stock specifically for this train. What? Why? From whom? What was the reason? Would you say they were forced to do this, or was it a matter of keeping up very high standards?
Yes. In November 1945, the Gulf Coast Rebel carried, not only St. Louis-Mobile coaches and sleepers and dining car, it also carried the 6 section sleeper for Montgomery, Alabama, which was switched out at Artesia, Mississippi-and a lounge car was switched in at Okolona, Mississippi, for lounge service to Mobile.
The GM&O itself did not go into Memphis, but did have trackage rights over the Southern between Corinth, Mississippi, and Memphis. I doubt that it ever ran a passenger train between these two cities.
Gulf Mobile and Ohio, St. Louis or Memphis to Montgomery, AL
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter