WW, look forward to your question. By the time Pullman bought the OB plant, I believe the B&W was already a bus line. The abandoned in stages, as required by highway construction, with the Framingham -Boston portion continuing after Worcester - Framingham went bus. They continued to be solvent. Also, by that time the track connection of the streetcar system to the Pullman plant was gone. Still, it would have cost very little to try one of the Dallas PCCs on the Worcester streetcar system. From pictures, the streetcars seem well maintained and clean to the end of streetcar operation, and all those running during WWII found South American buyers.
Doesn't anyone know where the Pullman ex-OB plant was located? Did that city have a street railway system? Connected by an interurban to a larger city?
The separate interurban line used the tracks of this city system to reach downtown, and at the other end of its line used the tracks of a much larger system to reach downtown. Again, it was a successful interuban line, and highway construction doomed it.
Osgood Bradley built the lightweight and possibliy the older cars of the city system. Osgood Bradley was bought by Pullman who used the plant to build PCCs and trolleybuses and troop sleepers.
Birney 2350 at Shore Line (Branford) was built by Osgood Bradley. So were a lot of the Boston Type Fives.
As far as I know, Indianapolis Railroad's most modern streetcars were Brill, not bujilt in the same shop as the one that built the Dallas PCCs. They were single ended, and Indy could have tried any PCCs, not just double-enders.
Again, it would have cost practically nothing for this system to try the Dallas PCC's when they were built. Pullman would probably have been glad to spend the small sum involved.
The two or three interurban lines that this system ran were far shorter than those entering Indianapolis, and were run as part of the city system but abandoned much earlier. The one "foreign" interurban line that entered the city and used the city system's track was put out of business not by loss of patronage, although that helped, but by highway construction for an early 4-lane divided highway, that required condemnation of the right-of-way, in the 1930's. It competed with a suburban railroad service that still is running today.
Indianapolis Railways comes close. They ran Brill Master Units to the end of streetcar service in the early 1950s. They did have some suburban lines, and, as a descendant of the Terre Haute, Indianapolis and Eastern provided city tracks to Indiana RR and other interurbans until 1941. I can't find a record of the cars' disposition to prove the match.
rcdrye narig01 This sounds like the Key System. Except... The Key System and East Bay Transit were different companies (though under the same holding company) after 1930... The cars in use by East Bay Transit during WWII included cars from St Louis, American (OK, that's StLCC, too ) and the company's Emeryville shops. The "Bridge Unit" carbodies that were used by Key System were built by Bethlehem Steel with electricals transferred from earlier Key System cars. During the transition, Key System's wood and steel cars operated in MU with the Bridge Units. Also used by Key System during WWII was the five car "City of Berkeley", a set of wooden former Sacramento Northern cars, all built by Holman.
narig01 This sounds like the Key System.
Except...
The Key System and East Bay Transit were different companies (though under the same holding company) after 1930...
The cars in use by East Bay Transit during WWII included cars from St Louis, American (OK, that's StLCC, too ) and the company's Emeryville shops. The "Bridge Unit" carbodies that were used by Key System were built by Bethlehem Steel with electricals transferred from earlier Key System cars. During the transition, Key System's wood and steel cars operated in MU with the Bridge Units. Also used by Key System during WWII was the five car "City of Berkeley", a set of wooden former Sacramento Northern cars, all built by Holman.
Your right about the cost of moving the cars. By the by, many Bridge Units ended up in Buenos Aires.(that is what came to mind)
Other WAG's Sand Springs Ry in Oklahoma or Louisville. Louisville had PCC's just sold them as quick as they arrived.
How coujld the Key System try PCCs fvor next -to-nothjing? Shipping costs woujld be high from either the St. louis Car Co. Pl;aqnt or the former Osgood Bradley Plant owned and used for PCC and trolley-bus construction by Pullman. Also troop sleepers. Even shipping fromn Dallas woiujld be costly. Also I wrote that th ecore city system remained, with the interurban liens abandoned. In Key's case , much the reverse happened.
You could not be more in erroir to pick Key! Wll, OK, Oregon electric would be as bad choice for the answer.
narig01This sounds like the Key System.
At the risk of winning,
This sounds like the Key System.
And all its lightweights were built in the same plant.
the pccs it would have cost nothing to try would have been the pullman-built double-enders for dallas when new.
A street railway system that operated some suburban or interurban lines, connected with others, and whose core city system lastged through WWII, mostliy with lightweight one-man double-truck safety cars, with some older cars broiught back into operation during WWII for rush-hour use.
Never tried PCCs, but it would have cost nearly nothing to try one.
All the cars that operated during WWII found new homes in Souith America. A bustitutions took place, the older ones went first.
When the last and heaviest lines were repalced, the State PUC had to order the bus companyi to add more buses, because of severe overcrowding.
Dave found the one I was looking for. The Portsmouth Dover & York, later the Atlantic Shore Line, ran from Biddeford to Kittery Maine, with a branch over to Dover New Hampshire. At Biddeford it connected with the Biddeford and Saco, whos open car 31 was the nucleus around which the Seashore Trolley Museum was built. Ther was also a line from Cape Porpoise to Sanford, the Sanford end remaining in electric operation until 1947 for freight. York Utilities operated Birneys on the Sanford end. The ferry connected Kittery with Portsmouth, where cars could be found heading to Boston and points west.
Cars from the PD&Y/ASL/YU that ended up at Seashore:
100 a homemade wooden steeple cab, used in Sanford 'til 1947
108 an express/RPO, sometimes a line car in ASL days
82 York Utilities Birney
The Biddiford and Saco River, one of whose open cars was bought for preservation in the 1930's and became the nucleus of the Seashore Trolley Musxeum and was the first piece of rolling stock purchased specifically for preservation by the railfan community.
Possibly the system you are lookin \g for is the one that had a ferry connection to Portsmouth and the Eastern Massachustts Street Railway/Bay State Electric Railway and cpmmeectioins to one or mroe other interurbvans in New Hampshire?
OK. That's close. The line I'm looking for had no rail on the "mainland" side of the river. Let's see if anyone comes up with the one I'm looking for over the weekend, if not I'll spill the beans and pass it on to you.
If it's any help, the first connecting line owned a piece of equipment that's very important in electric railway preservation history.
Evansville and Ohio Valley Railway. Indiana with connections, ferry across the Ohio River to Kentucky where no connections. About six mile of system remained in service until 1946 for what I believe was to move sand during the war.
This regional interurban crossed the border between two states, but its principal connection to the rest of the interurban network was via a company owned ferry crossing the same state border. There were connections to other electric railways in one state, but not the other. A small portion of the system remained until after WWII as a freight carrier, interchanging standard freight cars.
rc-- waiting for your question
The State of Maine sleeper to and from Washington was carried in the Washingtonian and Montrealer, not in the Federal. And coach passengers usually had an across-the-platform change at New Haven.
I think you are correct about the Vermonter being the CV-bound sleeper off the Federal in New Haven. Definitely your question.
B&M's Boston connection to the Montrealer/Washingtonian was called the New Englander, usually ran combined with the Red Wing that ran via White River Jct. instead of Plymouth. CV had a New York-St. Albans sleeper off of either the Montrealer/Washingtonian or one of B&M's overnight trains that went to St Albans as the Vermonter with the Springfield and St. Albans RPO and a coach.
I was really going for through trains that looked like they belonged to someone else, like the NP and GN trains did on the CB&Q. The Montrealer/Washingtonian was mostly a New Haven train in later years. CN cars filtered into the Amtrak Montrealer pretty regularly in the early to mid 1970s.
daveklepper the sleeper to the CV may have ended up in Montrreal, but not on the Montrealer
the sleeper to the CV may have ended up in Montrreal, but not on the Montrealer
Perhaps St. Albans on the Vermonter?
You are correct about all but the New Haven. The NH handled cars from different connecting lines in the same train (Federal, PRR, B&M-MC, CV-CN), but not competitive lines. The sleeper to the B&M went to Portland and possibly Bangor, switched to the State of Maine in New Haven; the sleeper to the CV may have ended up in Montrreal, but not on the Montrealer, possibly the just ot Berlin, New Hampshire on the Day White Mountains Express.
The others are NYCentral, NY- Albany, Rutland and D&H; B&M Boston - Concerd, CV-CN and CP overnighters to and from Montreal. The CP overnighter was the Red Wing. Was the CN-CV a section of the Montrealer? If so was the southbound called the Bostonian? It quit running earlier than the Red Wing. But when I rode the Red Wing, I recall the green CN equipment on the train when boarding in North Station. I think this was 1958. I don't remember whether this was in a lower berth in a heavyweight or a roomette in a lightweight; but it was a CP car, not B&M. I also do not recall using any meal or beverage service on that trip, but it may have been available. Slept well though, as usual.
You are up the next on this thread also!
daveklepperFour different railroads' tracks, about eight different railroads' trains.
South to North:
Florida East Coast
ACL, IC (City of Miami), PRR (South Wind) Dixies and Southern (Royal Palm)
All but the Royal Palm were ACL trains, but they weren't painted that way.
RF&P
ACL, SAL, N&W(with ACL - service to Norfolk)
PRR
NYNH&H (Federal)
ACL,SAL, Southern (C&O cars handled in other trains)
PRR also handled the Texas Eagle for about a year before renaming it the Penn Texas.
NYNH&H
PRR (Senator) B&M (State of Maine)
I think that gets most of 'em.
I thought I had given you (plural you) enough info, so all you had to do was count the nickels and have the right answer. Again, coney Island - Park Row Manhattan was a two-fare ride on a PCC. On coney Island Avenue - Smith Street, the zone change was at Bartell Pritchard Square at the south end of Prospect Park, while on Macdonald and Vanderbilt Avenues, it was either at Atlantic Avenue or Fulton Street. So that is 10 cents for Brooklyn. One paid another Nickel when boarding a Third Avenue home-made lightweight "T" for a trip up Park Row and the Bowery and Third Avenue, then 125th Street, and then Amsterdam Avenue. If one asked for transfer, one would use it when transferring to a "K" for a trip up St. Nicholous Avenue to 168th Street, then up Broadway, while the "T" continued up Amsterdam to Fort George. At 225th Street and Broadway, Marble Hill. the conduit current collection ended, and so did the"K." To continue up Broadway, one would pay another Nickel to board "C" that had come westbound from West Farms Square to ride north on Broadway to the city line at 262nd Street. A "1" Broadway-Warbureton Avenue coming up from the subway terminal at 242nd Street will only charge us a Nickle to ride north to the Hastings Line. 25 cents, five fares, five streetcars.
To New Rochelle, we do not transfer from the "T" to the "K." Instead, at 145th and Amsterdam to the 149th crostown, or at 181st to either the 167th or 180th ST. Crowstown, riding east to Webster Ave. A "W" Webster and white Plains Avenues, having used the transfer on the crosstown, a new fare required, gets us to the 261st Mount vernon Line, where an "A" car coming from the subway terminal at 241st Street, will require two fares to get us to the New Rochelle Station, for a totla of 30 cents, 5 more than to the Hastings Line. In both cases, going by subway to northern terminals, then streetcar, is a Nickel less. Need to use both the BMT and IRT, switching at Union Square for New Rochelle or Times Square for Hastings, ten cents together, but then the streetcar connection charges an extra Nickel for city portion between the subway terminal and the city line.
My new question: We are familiar with the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited Western Star and Mainstreater, also, running together on the Burlington. There weree at least four similar cases along the or touching the East Coast. Four different railroads' tracks, about eight different railroads' trains. How many do you know?
Agreed...Dave, I would really like you to write up more stories and reminisces explaining and relating the transit experience in New York and surrounding area's. It quite complicated and fascinating.
Good place right here in the Classic Trains Forum. These things need to be told from a first person experience before it fades into the fog of history.
daveklepper Should I ask another question?
Should I ask another question?
That might be a good idea, this question is one of those "you had to be there" type.
Information: From 1936 to past March, later in 1947, one could ride PCCs thorugh from Coney Island to Park Row, City Hall, Manhattan via either the Coney Island Avenue -Smith Street or the Macdonal Avenue - Vanderbilt Avenue lines, using the Brooklyn Bridge. Because these two lines were both combinations of two lines where transfer priveleges has been removed when the BMT failed to get a fare increase, the fare for the through ride was two nickles. In the cases of streetcar lines leaving The Bronx for either Mount Vernon or Yonkers, a similar fare zone break occured on the city line, but this extra fare could be avoided simily by using a the Bronx streetcar up to the city line in either case. But for transfers obtained for free on a Third Avenue Manhattan streetcar could only be used once. From Brooklyn Bridge to the city line, one had to use three Third Avenue Transit streetcars, whether headed for New Rochelle or the Yoners-Hastings line. And Pelham was an overlapping fare zone for both the Mount Vernon and New Rochelle individual fare zones on the "A - New Rochelle - Subway" streetcar (in this case trolley) line.
Now it should be just a simple Arithmatic problem.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter