Thanks, D: You have indicated to me that the moderator is discriminating against me. Which I suspected. And the reason that he is can only be because I referenced what rabbis said instead of someone else on a matter that is not specifically religious, life in outer space and how it reflects railroads. He removed the thread in spite of the fact that the subject was not specifically religious. Possibly because someone objected.
So I have made an exception regarding my last post to let you know about this sitiuation,
I have no objections to review of posts before posting. I do object to being denied the edit button, and a review of past posts indicates it is necessary.
And I still have no idea whether this post will appear without spelling mistakes.
The story in Middleton's book made it pretty clear that the shunting used in the 111MPH run was not implemented when the cars were delivered. It could very well be that the work done for the test was either connecting the last two steps of shunting or increasing the amount of field that was shunted.
The whole purpose of the shunt was to allow the armature to carry more current at the higher motor speeds for a given voltage on the motor terminals (the back EMF is proportional to the field strength times the motor speed). With a DC series motor operating below the field saturation current, doubling the speed would require the armature current to halve in order to maintain the same terminal voltage. This means the torque (and tractive effort) will go down by a factor of four and the motor horsepower will go down by a factor of two. With a 50% field shunt applied in this situation, the armature could continue to draw the same current and thus keep the horsepower the same with only a factor of two loss in torque.
IIRC, some of the Milwaukee electric locomotives had ~35% tap on the fields.
For DC electrifications in the pre-chopper days, the use of field shunts increased the number of available running speeds. For the CNS&M, that meant they could run the Electroliners at 85MPH where they could while maintaining the ability to run at a somewhat slower speed without having to cycle the controller between accelerating and coasting. FWIW, choppers effectively do cycle rapidly between acceleration and coasting.
erikemThis so unnerved the North Shore lines master mechanic that he ordered the removal of the shunts.
All CNS&M steel cars including the Electroliners had at least some field shunts. It was a feature of CNS&M's preferred Westinghouse HLF control (Hand acceleration Line powered Field control) The "Woods" had GE type M. Not particularly technical explanation of Field control is that weakening the "Field", or outside windings of the motor, the Armature becomes relatively stronger, and can operate at a higher speed. CNS&M's standard Westinghouse 557R5 motors allowed two steps of field weakening, I think the Electroliner's original control allowed four, though only two were used in service. The last steps of field weakening were supposed to be applied automatically when the controller was in the last notch, so may have been an auxiliary system.
daveklepper This will be my last posting until (if ever) the Edit Button is restored. I am 85 years old, have Dislexia, and do not wish to be suprised by making a statement the opposite of what I intended to make! I need the Edit Button like handicapped and elderly Americans need long-distance train service. You are entirely correct, described the situation perfectly.
This will be my last posting until (if ever) the Edit Button is restored. I am 85 years old, have Dislexia, and do not wish to be suprised by making a statement the opposite of what I intended to make! I need the Edit Button like handicapped and elderly Americans need long-distance train service.
You are entirely correct, described the situation perfectly.
Strange - I have the "EDIT" button on my post - and it works. Edited 12:15 AM
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Deleted 12:17 AM
111 MPH achieved on December 21, 1950 with the installation of field shunts. This so unnerved the North Shore lines master mechanic that he ordered the removal of the shunts. Information from William D Middleton's Traction Classics, volume 2.
Field shunting became fairly common after the development of the interpole motor as it allowed for a higher peak running speed while keeping accelerating current under control.
How fast could an Electroliner be made to go? And what was involved technologically in making this happen?
(I have always wondered, with the various claims that the Liners 'weren't the fastest cars on the property', whether there was some characteristic of the right-angle drive they used (hypoid gearing? ratios?) that led to the nominal 85mph restriction. Ah, for the halcyon pre-1950 days again!)
RME got it right and is entitled to the next question. It's interesting to note that except for the subways, none of the newer L routes (after 1939) are built over or under city streets.
Nice Video of 4271-4272 on the Trains newswire yesterday 6/7/2017. You can see the conductor standing between the cars, ready to operate the door controls.
Mr. Yerkes built most of his L properties over city streets - one of them (the Lake Street L, started by Yerkes' friend Michael Cassius McDonald) entirely over a city street, though later extended on the ground (on a city street ROW) after he sold his interest. His "imaginative use" was to propose extending the Union Consolidated Elevated Railway west to Halsted St. through an industrial area. By making it clear he was going to get signatures whatever way it took, he was able to build the UCER (better known as the Met's connection to the Loop along Van Buren and Market (Wacker)) with just the local Van Buren Street frontage signatures.
Wasn't this the Cities and Villages Act of 1872, the law that said neighboring property owners had to give permission to build over adjacent public streets (shades of A.T Stewart's vaults in NYC subway history) ... as so imaginatively and cleverly surmounted by the inimitable Mr. Yerkes?
And away we go!! (with apologies to Jackie Gleason). This week marks the 125th anniversary of the opening of the L. A large percentage of the L was built over its own land rather than public rights-of-way (streets or alleys). What was the name of the Illinois statute that led to this situation and what the provision involved?
rcdryeThe CD&M used the Tri-Cities Railway in Davenport, ironic since Davenport is part of the Quad Cities (Davenport and Bettendorf IA, Moline and Rock Island IL).
Interestingly enough, the introduction of "Quad Cities" (to replace Tri-Cities) involved Davenport, Rock Island, Moline, and East Moline. Bettendorf's growth led to some agitation for "Quint Cities" -- I can see how that might be one step too many, especially around the Dionne era. With the general Rust Belt dying-back East Moline gave way to Bettendorf as the official 'fourth city'.
Now ... what is CSSHEGEWISCH's question?
rcdrye Tri-Cities Railway in Davenport, ironic since Davenport is part of the Quad Cities
Tri-Cities Railway in Davenport, ironic since Davenport is part of the Quad Cities
https://archive.org/stream/threecitiestheir00till#page/n5/mode/2up
Been a week, time to bump this thread. It would seem that CSSHEGEWISCH has the next question.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Two tugs and three two track floats made up Erie's Chicago fleet. Original float bridge at 18th street, the operation started with two New York-sytle "station floats" with center unloading platforms. Float station was at Erie and Kingsbury near Montgomery Ward's huge warehouse, with a later float station at Webster Avenue, both on the North Branch of the Chicago River. Both sites later got float bridges serving small yard and team track areas, and could handle both carload and LCL traffic. Before 1915, the floats were also used to tend Erie's lake boats. The yards were handled by 23-ton Baldwin gasoline locomotives.
Dropped by USRA in 1918, Erie restarted it in 1923, adding float-only service to Navy Pier in 1924. Fairly successful until the depression, the service ended in 1936, lasting through the straightening of the Chicago River. Both tugs were sent to New York, one lasting into the Erie Lackawanna era.
That would be the Erie, which had a carfloat operation on the Chicago River, allowing it to serve the North Side.
Based on no response in 6 days, I'm replacing the question. I was looking for the Clinton Davenport and Muscatine, which rand between its namesake cities, 600V above Davenport, 1200V below. Part of the line went to the CB&Q/MILW controlled Davenport Rock Island and Northwestern, whcih also controlled Davenport's Union Station, used most heavily used by non-owner CRI&P. The CD&M used the Tri-Cities Railway in Davenport, ironic since Davenport is part of the Quad Cities (Davenport and Bettendorf IA, Moline and Rock Island IL).
The new question:
This railroad, which had a well known fleet in the New York Harbor, had a smaller one in another major city, the only one of its kind in that city. The fleet was in service from the teens to the mid-thirties, with almost all of the equipment heading to New York Harbor after the operation shut down.
THI&E was all 600V. Successor Indiana RR did have a 1200V section on the former Interstate Public Service line to Louisville, but IRR's 1200V equipment worked at 600 or 1200. The line I'm looking for was in an area where steam road interchange with interurbans was more common. The middle city on the line's streetcar company was named for a well-known group of small cities, but the streetcar company's name counted one less than the more commonly known number.
I would think that the interurban was Terre Haute, Indianapolis & Eastern and the switching road was picked up by Indianapolis Union Ry.
I need to correct the description of the part that bacame the switching road. The switching road bought the line from the interurban's receivers. The switching line also owned the (steam railroad) Union Station in the city that marked the boundary between the 600 and 1200v divisions
Not the P&N (1500V on both divisions anyway). This railroad's two divisions connected. 1200V cars operated on half voltage in the middle city, with no through cars. The successor line painted its locomotives in a scheme that included the colors of two of the owners.
Rob and All:
The following is from Dave Klepper: " ....the freight swiching railroad is the Piedmont and Northern. And the reason there ws no thru service is that there was a gap between the two divisions requiring of the Southern Railroad between them."
Ed Burns
Thank you, Dave. I hope you get your access problems cleared up. As much as I like posting questions I really like digging to find answers to the questions posted.
Like the more famous Sacramento Northern out west, this interurban had 600 and 1200 volt divisions as the result of an early merger (unlike SN, there was no through operation). It was more successful as a freight carrier than a passenger carrier, became an important diesel operated switching line owned by two connecting railroads, and is still active today.
rcdrye Dave Klepper, you are up!
Dave Klepper, you are up!
Mr Klepper is having problems, and emailed me.
Klepper David-Lloyd
to me, enburns@comcast.net
2 days agoDetails
Thanks. Do me a favor and on the Classic Trains Forum let "rc" know that his Cincinnati answer is 100% correct.
The following is from Dave Klepper: "his Cincinnati answer is 100% correct".
Dave is have trouble with computer access to "Classic Trains".
TRAINS had a picture of this yard in "Would You Believe It" in an issue in the late 1960's.
Cincinnati. I know Cincinnati had a broad gauge streetcar system, but standard gauge interurbans also ran there. There was also a narrow gauge steam suburban line (Cincinnati, Georgetown and Portsmouth). Cincinnati Traction comany's Carrel Street yard was laid with track of all three gauges, as the CG&P was transitioning from narrow to standard gauge.
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