You two should come up with a joint question (I'm sure it would be a doozy...)
The NYC train was the New York end of the Mount Royal, but carried cars for the Montreal Limited as well. B&M and Rutland pooled power and crews from Troy to Rutland with the B&M power filling in from time to time as B&M's pool contribution (This same arrangement held for the daytime Green Mountain Flyer). In Rutland the B&M engine came off during the switching to combine the Boston section. The Boston section was also a B&M/Rutland joint train, but power was changed at Bellows Falls. Rutland power ran all the way to Montreal.
To fill in on the hints, the Mount Royal went to Bonaventure Station in Montreal until about 1948 when it shifted to Central. After that time the Rutland engines only went To St. Lambert, where CN electrics took over for the last mile or so. Rutland Power always ran through- to the best of my knowledge only steam though I would love to find out that the RS3's ran that far. D&H trains went to CP's Windsor Station.
After the Rutland dropped the Mount Royal NYC and D&H continued to swap cars on some trains at Troy until 1955 or 1956, after which all the swaps moved to Albany (some trains, like the Laurentian, never swapped at Troy). Troy Union was closed in the late 1950s after the last B&M trains left, and the tracks removed in the early 1970s.
The previous posting is the winner, but the Rutland train actually left Troy on the Boston and Maine, and on a few occasions a B&M pacific would subsitute for the Rutland 4-8-2 as far as the junction or perhaps as far as Rutland, but never into Montreal.
rcdrye I did go for the Peach Queen at first - then I reread your question and realized it couldn't be right, since it ran in both directions. The New Yorker was the only NB-only train I had heard of. The Southerner was carrying New York- Atlanta Pullmans (along with some others) by 1957. Until the early 1950s, the New York Central train that left GCT at 9:30PM for Troy NY carried cars for two connecting trains. Even though only two connecting trains were involved, locomotives on the connections could be from three different railroads. Both of the connecting trains were headed to the same ultimate destination city. A couple of hints: two of the three railroads' locomotives could go all the way to the destination city, one's would always be turned short. The two trains ended up in the same city, but at different stations.
I did go for the Peach Queen at first - then I reread your question and realized it couldn't be right, since it ran in both directions. The New Yorker was the only NB-only train I had heard of. The Southerner was carrying New York- Atlanta Pullmans (along with some others) by 1957.
Until the early 1950s, the New York Central train that left GCT at 9:30PM for Troy NY carried cars for two connecting trains. Even though only two connecting trains were involved, locomotives on the connections could be from three different railroads. Both of the connecting trains were headed to the same ultimate destination city.
A couple of hints: two of the three railroads' locomotives could go all the way to the destination city, one's would always be turned short. The two trains ended up in the same city, but at different stations.
Rob, I believe one train would be the D&H/CP Montreal Ltd. which arrived in Montreal at Windsor Station. I'm guessing the other would be a B&M/Rutland/CN train that arrived in Montreal at Bonaventure Station.
Unfortunately I have misplaced the CD which contains the only OG I have for the time period that would confirm the existence of the second train that I mention.
Mark
rcdrye Is the train in question the "New Yorker"? (From Atlanta)
Is the train in question the "New Yorker"? (From Atlanta)
You must have edited your reply after first sending it, since Peach Queen was the name shown in the reply that came by email. The Peach Queen, which ran in both directions until the late sixties, shared PRR trains with the Pelican--running later sb and earlier nb than the Southerner.
The New Yorker (#40) gave business travelers the opportunity to have Pullman accomodations to Washington and New York after working a full day in Atlanta. This train left Atlanta an hour and a half ahead of the Southerner, and arrived in Washington fifteen minutes earlier. After the Crescent received its lightweight observation cars, its 2 DR, 3 C Observation-lounge cars were carried NY to Atlanta on the Peach Queen and north on the New Yorker. Apparently the other Atlanta-New York cars and the Atlanta-Washington car were also carried south on the Peach Queen. As well as I can tell, the Southern added a New York-Birmingham sleeper to the Southerner by December of 1952. #39 # 39 remained a mail train south of Greensboro.
In August, 1953, Southern discontinued many trains, including 39 and 40 Washington-Atlanta and Birmingham Division 39 and 40 (which had a through Atlanta-Memphis sleeper in conjunction with the Frisco).
Johnny
KCSfan rcdrye This MP sleeping car route operated overnight. It was handed off southbound in a different city than northbound, and to a subsidiary company southbound, and accepted from the parent company northbound. Name the endpoints, the handoff cities, and the parent and subsidiary. (This should be easy for some of you...) I was thrown off by the wording of this question and possibly others were also. I interpreted subsidiary company to be a subsidiary of the MoPac and parent company to be the MoPac itself. Mark
rcdrye This MP sleeping car route operated overnight. It was handed off southbound in a different city than northbound, and to a subsidiary company southbound, and accepted from the parent company northbound. Name the endpoints, the handoff cities, and the parent and subsidiary. (This should be easy for some of you...)
This MP sleeping car route operated overnight. It was handed off southbound in a different city than northbound, and to a subsidiary company southbound, and accepted from the parent company northbound. Name the endpoints, the handoff cities, and the parent and subsidiary. (This should be easy for some of you...)
I was thrown off by the wording of this question and possibly others were also. I interpreted subsidiary company to be a subsidiary of the MoPac and parent company to be the MoPac itself.
As to the mystery train in my question, Its entire run began at a station stop the Sounerner made.
My apologies. I knew that was a risk in the question, and missed the chance to make it completely clear.
It's two and a half days since anyone has even guessed at the route of the sleeper. It ran between St. Louis and Shreveport. Southbound, the MP turned it over to the L&A at Hope, Arkansas, and it traveled on the Shreveporter to Shreveport via Minden. Northbound, the KCS carried the car on the Flying Crow to Texarkana and delivered it to the MP there.
Going from New Orleans to Kansas City in 1968, I slept on the Minden to Shreveport section of this route--Hope to Minden no longer had passenger service--and I continued sleeping on the Shreveport to Texarkana section of the return trip; I slept across Arkansas and Texas, waking up as we were leaving Texarkana--I had not gone to sleep until after we crossed the Mississippi at Baton Rouge.
New question: from 1947 into 1953, the PRR train which carried the Southerner (all coach on the Southern) from Washington to New York also carried sleepers from another Southern train. What was the other Southern train (it ran as a name train northbound only)?
Good catch. I was looking at a station list on a condensed timetable and didn't look at the map.
rcdrye Not quite Mexico. This was MP-only (no IGN, NOT&M or Stl B&M) with the other carriers. Only thee states were involved southbound, though the northbound handoff came very close to touching another state.
Not quite Mexico. This was MP-only (no IGN, NOT&M or Stl B&M) with the other carriers. Only thee states were involved southbound, though the northbound handoff came very close to touching another state.
As to "very close to touching another state," the car did travel in another state, traveling in four states on the way back home (if you have a copy of the SPV atlas for that state, you can check this--and I slept across that state).
This is in the category of WAG'ing St Louis-Mexico City? Handoff's SB Nuevo Laredo , Tampico, Mexico & NB Laredo, Tx?
Rgds IGN
Rcd, I was citing what I remembered from a post by PhoebeVet (who, I believe, lives in Charlotte) to a thread on a Trains Magazine forum. I hope that the NCDOT is right in its claim.
As to the sleeper line, it is so easy that I will not answer it, unless no one else can figure it out. Incidentally, I have slept on the two other roads' portions of the route--I did not get to sleep until long after I left the southern terminus of the sleeper I was in, and woke as we were leaving the northern terminus of the the parent company's portion of the route, having slept across two states on the parent company.
And I was only complaining I couldn't find anything on it... NCDOT is claiming the new station will be ready by 2015, and serve 500,000 passenger annually ( http://www.bytrain.org/istation/icharlotte.html )
We have a winner! I do not remember the date of the move, but until some time in the early sixties, the Southern station in Charlotte was on West Trade Street (which carries much more traffic than the parallel streets)--and the tracks crossed Trade at grade, necessitating stopping street traffic whenever a train or cut of cars moved across the street). The move was to a Southern facility on North Tryon (Tryon is The main street), along with elevating the tracks at Trade. Now, there are plans to consolidate bus and passenger rail facilities in one location--which is on Trade Street, at the former location of the Southern station. I understand it will take about fifteen or more years to bring these plans to fruition.
Back in my time (I grew up about fifty miles south of Charlotte), the bus station was about two blocks SE of the Southern station, on Trade Street. Currently, the bus (Greyhound) station is where the Southern station was.
I just walked through last winter's Amtrak timetable to check all active stations in NC, SC and GA (you said one of those is right). The only station that comes even close (and there's no mention of track elevation) is Charlotte NC, but that involves a move from an SR facility north of town to a block bounded by 4th, Trade and Graham. My aeriel photo training doesn't make any of those, except maybe Trade, a main street.
Got there in 1969, "Urban Renewal" had raised hob with that area and laid waste to most of it, It was a long time ('90s) before restoration of the station was accomplished for other use, although AMTRAC remains a resident. Left MEM in '06, so have no current knowledge..
Off thread--but may be of interest---in mid-'70s, street cars came back to Main St with a loop-around along the river. On the streets, the motorman would "ding-ding" his bell at intersections, but as the river section is on IC tracks, instead of the bell, it was ---- ---- o ---- on a loud horn and all crossing gates came down --just like for real trains.
No, it is definitely not Memphis--there has been no change in the location of the IC station (the only one in use now) in Memphis.
Just passing by---but sounds like Memphis, although Calhoun/Patterson questionable "main" street. Elevated, yes, but not in sense of Chicago, NYC or Philly
No, Dave, it was not Greensboro (back about 1980, Amtrak stopped using the station in Greensboro and began using a facility at Pomona (calling it Greensboro)--and came back to a refurbished Greensboro station several years ago). I may be wrong, but I do not think that switching sleepers for/from Greensboro, Raleigh, Winston-Salem, and Asheville involved blocking a main street.
The sleeper was switched from the mainline train to the branchline train at Greensboro, I think. Could that be the location?
Dave, it is not Durham.
Could it be Durham, NC, which has had passenger service restored recently after Southern abandoned its last passenger service several years before Amtrak? Now there is NC-supported three-times daily each way service from Raleigh to Charlotte through Durham, with one each way continuing to Selma, Petersburg, Richmond, DC, and NYC.
I rode the Southern's NYC-Raleigh sleeper once. Through Durham.
No, it is not Columbia, Savannah, Charleston, or Raleigh. One of you has the right state.
As to Savannah, the old union station was a stub station, I believe. Service into all the stations in Charleston was stopped in the fifties, at the latest.
I "think" it's Columbia, South Carolina. Something's nudging me to suggest this as an answer.
Savannah Ga Union station was replaced by the current Savannah station in 1962. No line elevations, but it did front on what was then Broad St.
Charleston has something underway to renovate the North Charleston Station in what may be a different location from the current one.
No, Raleigh is not the city I have in mind.
Is this the new "Union Station" proposed for Raleigh NC?
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