Since no passenger train was scheduled to stop there, I doubt that there was a passenger station there. There may well have been a freight agent there; if the diner was exchanged there there had to be a siding there.
Rob, do you have a question for this thread?
Johnny
Was there a manned agency passenger station (manned at train time) at that point?
No, Dave, I do not believe that it was a mistake. I do not have any Southern timetables between the September, 1936, and the January, 1938, issues, so I do not know when the change was made. I do have a November, 1937, Guide, and it shows the Markwald station without any stop and does not show the Barnett station, so the change was made between September, 1936, and November, 1937. The Guide listing does not give origins and terminations of diners operated by the Southern.
I still believe that Table 86 in both of the mentioned timetables shows where diners were to added or taken off.
I have the answer: Itg\ was an ERROR. Timetables occasionally do have errors, and the fact that it was changed at the next edition indicates it was probably an error.
Deggesty Mark, from the Southern Railway System passenger timetable dated September, 1936: #43 left Laurel at 1:07 pm; #44 left Laurel at 12:26 pm, so the diner could not have been swapped there. Pachuta (660. 4 miles from Cincinnati) was a flag stop for #43 at 12:21 pm and a flag stop for #44 at 1:18 pm; Barnett (no time shown) was 664.3 miles from Cincinnati; Vossburg (669.7 miles from Cincinnati) was a scheduled stop for #43 at 12:36 pm and a scheduled stop for #44 at 1:03 pm. The January, 1938, timetable shows that the diner ran between Chattanooga and Markwald, (4.3 miles south of Heidelberg--673.1 miles from Cincinnati) which has no time shown in the schedules. Heidelberg was a flag stop for #43 at 12:42 pm and a flagstop for #44 at 12:55 pm. This would have made an early lunch possible for passengers on #43 and a late lunch possible for those riding #44. This was, to me, a better arrangement than the one shown in the September, 1936, timetable.
Mark, from the Southern Railway System passenger timetable dated September, 1936:
#43 left Laurel at 1:07 pm; #44 left Laurel at 12:26 pm, so the diner could not have been swapped there.
Pachuta (660. 4 miles from Cincinnati) was a flag stop for #43 at 12:21 pm and a flag stop for #44 at 1:18 pm; Barnett (no time shown) was 664.3 miles from Cincinnati; Vossburg (669.7 miles from Cincinnati) was a scheduled stop for #43 at 12:36 pm and a scheduled stop for #44 at 1:03 pm.
The January, 1938, timetable shows that the diner ran between Chattanooga and Markwald, (4.3 miles south of Heidelberg--673.1 miles from Cincinnati) which has no time shown in the schedules. Heidelberg was a flag stop for #43 at 12:42 pm and a flagstop for #44 at 12:55 pm. This would have made an early lunch possible for passengers on #43 and a late lunch possible for those riding #44. This was, to me, a better arrangement than the one shown in the September, 1936, timetable.
Johnny, you've thrown me a curve ball with your mention of Markwald. The March '37 OG lists the towns as follows: Vossburg, Heidelburg, Sandersville, Hawkes and Laurel - Markwald is not shown at all. I checked the NO&NE section in a 1910 OG and the story's the same, no Markwald. I take it your info is from a timetable and not a schedule in the OG's but that doesn't explain why Markdale would be shown in one but not the other.
I think it more likely that the diner would be swapped between trains at a scheduled rather than a conditional stop. I'd bet that the Q&C's more often than not blew right through Heidleburg without being flagged. This suggests to me that the swap would be made at Vossburg and the schedules you've provided show this would be very possible.
Mark
KCSfan KCSfan Barnett was definitely not a water stop. I'm pretty sure Laurel was the point were the diner was switched from the SB to the NB Q&C. Mark Johnny, please check your '36 OG and see if Laurel was the actual meeting point of the two trains or at least if the SB Q&C arrived shortly before the NB left thus making the swap of the diner from one to the other possible. Mark
KCSfan Barnett was definitely not a water stop. I'm pretty sure Laurel was the point were the diner was switched from the SB to the NB Q&C. Mark
Barnett was definitely not a water stop. I'm pretty sure Laurel was the point were the diner was switched from the SB to the NB Q&C.
Johnny, please check your '36 OG and see if Laurel was the actual meeting point of the two trains or at least if the SB Q&C arrived shortly before the NB left thus making the swap of the diner from one to the other possible.
Rob, Mark came close in his first response, but I think you are a bit closer. I have no sure information, but I have had the impression, from the first time that I noticed this, that wherever the two trains-northbound and southbound-met, the diner was taken off the southbound and put on the northbound. However, you would not need a wye, just a sidetrack, as diners ran just as well in one direction as in the other (and I have eaten in diners that were pointed either way)--and, you would not need a switcher, as a road engine could handle the exchange; drop the diner from the southbound and the northbound backs up to it. If the trains were running on time Barnett would have been the place where they met.
As to the Mason-Dixon Line, it was the line between Maryland and Pennsylvania that was laid down by the surveyors. It definitely was not in Mississippi.
In the next earlier Southern timetable that I have, the diner ran all the way between Chattanooga and New Orleans. Apparently fewer people wanted to eat in the diner south of Barnett, so the Southern decided to switch the car from one train to the other in time for northbound passengers to eat lunch. The crew would not have to clean up, but simply be ready to serve lunch once the car was headed north.
Incidentally, I have never liked the "dining service available;" I have liked to know from where to where.
Happy Guy Fawkes Day to you all.
Or was Barnett a non-passenger water stop that just happened to have a handy switcher and a wye? SP serviced trains and changed crews at Sparks NV, but it wasn't always a passenger stop.
I forgot to add that the equipment section of both the SB and NB Q&C in the March 1937 OG simply states "Air Conditioned Dining Service" and there's no mention of Barnett. I'd normally interpret that to mean the diner ran all the way through from Cincy to NO. However the Q&C arrived in NO at 5:30 pm which I'd think too early to serve dinner.
daveklepper Wait, the logical reason is that Barnett was on the Mason-Dixon line, and a dining car could not both be segregated, illegal in Northern States, and non-segregated, illegal in Southern States. Other thru trains, could simply have non-segregated seating north and segregated seating south, since meal hours did not bracket crossing the MD line. But was Tennessee non-segregated?
Wait, the logical reason is that Barnett was on the Mason-Dixon line, and a dining car could not both be segregated, illegal in Northern States, and non-segregated, illegal in Southern States.
Other thru trains, could simply have non-segregated seating north and segregated seating south, since meal hours did not bracket crossing the MD line. But was Tennessee non-segregated?
No, no Dave. The MD line was the Ohio River and the Q&C was segregated over it's entire route between Cincy and NO.
I'm inclined to think Dave has the right idea. I mentioned that the southbound Q&C passed through Barnett about 12:30 pm but that time came from a 1937 OG and the time frame of Johnny's question was Sept. 1936. If the schedule had been just a half hour different in 1936 the diner could have stopped serving around Barnett and continued on 26 miles to Laurel where it would be dropped from the southbound train and added to the northbound Q&C to run back to Chattanooga.
I suppose the Southern was more sensible than some other railroads and listed the diner service as ONLY when service was provided passenger customers, not when the diner was physically on the train. I suppose they just stopped serving at Barnett in preparation for droping the diner further, or even cleaning up and preparing for the return trip, because of quick turn-around and the terminal, or a combination of both these conditions.
Except that I thought the quesiton demanded more than one company, not just more than one route.
Barnett is about mid-way between Pachuta which was a flag stop for the Q&C and Vossberg which was a scheduled stop. Based on the times shown for those stops I'd guess the Q&C passed through Barnett about 12:30 pm or right in the middle of lunch time which seems a most unusual time and place to drop a diner. I can't think of any plausible explanation so I can't even hazard a guess and will anxiously await the answer.
KCSfan I will be asking a new question on the other thread so I'll pass on this one. Dave, if it's OK with you I'll defer to Johnny since he hasn't had an opportunity to ask a question recently. Mark
I will be asking a new question on the other thread so I'll pass on this one. Dave, if it's OK with you I'll defer to Johnny since he hasn't had an opportunity to ask a question recently.
The Southern Railway timetable dated September 1936 shows that the Queen and Crescent, a Cincinnati-New Orleans train which ran between Chattanooga and New Orleans by day, has a diner between Chattanooga and Barnett, Mississippi,--but shows no time for a stop in Barnett. Why would this have been?
I'm not surprised that I missed that one. That's why I added the station names, even though that would have bit me here. I was amazed at how many cities had interurban union terminals, and even more amazed at how many of them were abandoned within 10 or even 5 years of construction. Of the four on my list three of them lasted at least 25 years, only Sacramento lasting only 15 years in service.
It's too late now but perhaps we should have added another state capital. The Oklahoma Ry's operated three interurban lines from Oklahoma City. They went to El Reno, Guthrie and Norman and all used "Terminal Sta." in OkCy per the OG's.
I agree, Mark, unless he wishes to defer to me. (i have onre ready.) I did of coursse know the answer on Indianapolis, but Mark beat me to it. And my question, when I have the chance to qask it, is related to that Traction Terminal.
I didn't say Greyhound moved to a good intermodal terminal... Actually the Salt Lake Terminal was probably a better intermodal station than the current one, being only a couple of blocks from the UP and D&RGW/WP stations.
I score Mark (KCSFan) 2 and Dave (DaveKlepper) and Johnny (Deggesty) one each. That gives it to Mark unless he defers.
I was kind of surprised that Des Moines didn't have one, but it seems Ft Dodge Des Moines and Southern wanted to act like a steam road (which it started out as) and DM & Central Iowa was apparently OK with loading and discharging on the street.
Rob, that sounds like Salt Lake City, which about ninety years ago did have a union facility for the Salt Lake and Utah and the Salt Lake and Ogden (which became the Bamberger). In 1930, the Bamberger used the D&RGW-WP union depot, and the Salt Lake and Utah had a separate station. The Salt Lake and Utah connected the major cities in Salt Lake and Utah counties.
As to the "intermodal terminal," the Greyhound station is some distance from the rail station, with no protection from the weather between the two. The Front Runner has no station building, but boarding is done right at the Amtrak station--and TRAXX (light rail)stops right in front of the Amtrak station--but you have to go around the station to enter it (the front door is now an emergency exit). The Front Runner tracks are between the UP tracks and the station--and you have to go around the Amtrak train to board or detrain (the sleepers are on the rear, so if you are traveling west, you have to walk the length of the train to/from the station). Until Front Runner came into being, Amtrak's parking was right by the station; now you must cross the street (600 West) as well as the TRAXX tracks to get to the parking lot--and there is no traffic light there nor is there a proper walkway (it is poorly lit, and there are puddles in wet weather) for pedestrians on the east side of the street.
Not Des Moines. This "Terminal" was built for two interurbans, one northward and one southward. (The westward one does not appeared to have used it.) It was the city's bus terminal until a new intermodal terminal was opened several years ago serving commuter and long distance rail, as well as light rail. Now if that didn't give it away I'm not sure what would.
rcdrye Ogden isn't the capital of Utah...
Ogden isn't the capital of Utah...
Try SLC Dave.
Rob, I take it Des Moines was the city with the "Terminal". If we're still looking for the "Union Depot." I'll throw in Lansing, MI but that's strictly a SWAG.
Ogden, Utah
Indianapolis, Columbus and Sacramento are so far correct. Annapolis actually had two stations (Bladen St and West St.), both eventually WB&A, neither of which was union. The "Terminal" was a bit west of Des Moines, and east of Salem. In Denver, the Denver and Intermountain used Denver Union Station, so that doesn't count.
The "Terminal" lasted until after WW II, and was a joint rail/bus station until rail service was abandoned.
I think Sacramento, CA, had Union Depot. Annapolis had Terminal, but I don't think it was a union station, hosting only WB&A. Possibly DeMoines, Iowa or Salem, Oregon?
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