Give us more time and we will figure out a few more until we suggest the right one.
But what your "right" answer is --- is one a many right answers.
Nobody's close....want the answer?
Here's another one on the Burlington (Friday evening-Monday morning): Denver-Lincoln or Omaha-Kansas City-Alliance-Denver, crossing at Lincoln.
Johnny
There were several bowtie loops in 1950; I worked three out last night.
The B&M had a possible one, which took a little over eleven hours to run: Boston-Ayer-Dover- Rockingham-Manchester-Boston, crossing at Lowell.
Another one, taking a bit longer (Friday night to Sunday afternoon), would have been on NYC: Detroit-Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Buffalo-Detroit, crossing at Bellefontaine.
The third one, on Southern (Saturday morning to Sunday evening), would have been Greensboro-Harriman-Atlanta-Greensboro, crossing at Spartanburg.
One that I worked on this morning, on Rock Island (Friday night-early Monday morning), would have been Rock Island-Iowa Falls-Kansas City-Belleville-Rock Island, crossing at Des Moines.
There was one on SFe, (Friday night-early, early Monday morning): San Angelo-Brownwood-Clovis-Wichita-San Angelo, crossing Hermleigh and P&SF Jct.
The Standard Railroad of the World:
East side of bow-tie: Philadelphia and Baltimore
West side of bow-tie: Buffalo and Pittsburgh
Center of bow-tie: Harrisburg
PRR
EZ
On this railroad , you could , at least in the 50's (and earlier) make one of those "passenger train circular trips" over a weekend in the shape of a bow tie.
After its career as SP 400 (renum 9500 in 1949) it became an EMD test car, then a Conrail surface analyzer. Went to NS in Conrail split.
The car became SP 400 for the Oakland Lark in 1941 after the original SP 400 was destroyed in a rear-end collision. (American Milemaster was plan 4082, 400 a very similar plan 4082A). In a wierd sequel, SP 401 was also destroyed in a rear-end collision in 1942, and replaced by Muskingum River, the sister car to American Milemaster which became SP 401 (9501). Both cars were rebuilt with square ends in 1959 by SP.
Your turn.
American Milemaster of course.
First assignment (winter season) was RI-SP #29 and 30, The Arizona Limited. Then repainted for COSF service; then repainted for Treasure Island Special service.
Became SP 9500
Pullman built a sleeper-observation (2BR-1CPT-1DR) for display at the New York World's Fair in 1939. As built its name area below the windows read "Room-Observation-Sleeping Car". What name was it given after a nationwide contest? Which name train was it assigned to, for which it lost that neme for a number?
The car was in revenue service until 1963, and still in non-revenue service until at least 1997.
All that is nce, RCDRYE, but that is exactly all I expected for an answer! You got the next question!!
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The NYC Ottawa line was cut back from Tupper Lake Jct by the late 1930s, to Helena on the GT/CN line from Massena to Montreal, crossing CP at Finch, ONT. The NYC service to Montreal via Malone did use CP tracks from Adirodack Jct to Windsor Station, but under trackage rights, not as a joint service. The only service NYC operated jointly with CP was the Buffalo service (with the joint CP/NYC owned TH&B). The Detroit service through the tunnel was technically CP using trackage and terminal rights over the Michigan Central.
The last couple of miles of the Ottawa Division into Ottawa from Hurdmans Jct were also over CP trackage rights.
All of this service, except the NYC's Malone-Montreal trains, was gone before CP got its RDCs in 1955.
Henry, going back to 1916 and 1930, and a few Guides later than 1930, the only trains that I can find that the CP operated into Cornwall, Ont., were Montreal-Cornwall trains, and they did not connect with any NYC trains that ran through Cornwall (Ottawa-Tupper Lake trains). NYC Montreal-Malone trains apparently used CP track between Adirondack Jct.and Montreal, but the CP timetables do not show them. I am really puzzled as to what through service CP and NYC could have had other than the Toronto-Buffalo and Toronto-Detroit trains.
Even in 1916, Massena (then called Massena Springs) was the end of the line from Philadelphia, N.Y., so it could not have had through service from a CP point.
RCDRYE, you are answering what I answered with correctness. I am looking for the routes of the railroads or trains I originally offered as an answer...
CP trains using RDCs ran from Toronto to Buffalo (CP - Hamilton - TH&B - Welland - MC)
CP trains using RDCs also ran from Toronto to Detroit. The last two miles were through the MC tunnel from Windsor ON to Detroit. RDC trains were pulled through the tunnel by MC GP7s.
Buffalo/Niagra Falls and Detroit were the answers...but the other were my mistakes.
henry6 Ok, since this is about railroads and not trains...and since we were just talking NYC and I was in the wrong geographically, let's study my mistake. The origination of the train and route I was mistaken about went from where to where over what routes...?
Ok, since this is about railroads and not trains...and since we were just talking NYC and I was in the wrong geographically, let's study my mistake. The origination of the train and route I was mistaken about went from where to where over what routes...?
Henry, I'm a bit confused. Your prior replies mentioned three different routes: Cornwall-Massena & Malone, Buffalo & Niagra Falls-Toronto and Buffalo-Detroit. For my benefit would you please specify which of these you are asking about in the current question.
Mark
Cab signalling....needed in the US.
Deggesty Was this because in the days of electric locomotives under the Detroit River MC crews had to take the CP trains in and out of Detroit, so MC crews continued to do so after diesels began moving the trains?
Was this because in the days of electric locomotives under the Detroit River MC crews had to take the CP trains in and out of Detroit, so MC crews continued to do so after diesels began moving the trains?
Pretty much. The grade in the tunnel under the river was considered to be a little much for the RDCs to start if they stalled there. Non-RDC CP trains just ran through. CP's RDCs were delivered a couple of years after MC electric operation ended.
Henry gets the next question since he got the cities.
rcdrye So all we need is why the NYC/MC GP7?
So all we need is why the NYC/MC GP7?
Then it must be Buffalo and Detroit.....
Buffalo and Toronto are correct. The second U.S. City is further west (and CP didn't serve Niagara Falls.)
Toronto-Buffalo service was joint with TH&B/MC. Only some of the trains were RDCs, though the final service after late 1970 was RDC only.
Then we should look west to Buffalo and Niagra Falls from Toronto.
Nope. All three cities were larger than Cornwall. CP RDC's were all powered. One service lasted into the mid-1970s (the one without the NYC GP). The last NYC St. Lawrence Dvision trains to Canada were gone before CP got its RDCs.
Canadian city was Cornwall although the train originated in Montreal (go back to engine and car days and I think there might have been service to and from Ottawa). In NY the two cities had to be Massena and Malone. I would guess the GP7 was used because one of the RDC cars was a trailer with no controls or a regular coach used as a trailer.
In Canadian Pacific's trans-border operation of RDCs, there were two routes that were operated in some kind of arrangement with the New York Central Lines. Name the Canadian city, the two American cities, and explain why the NYC always hauled the RDCs into one of them with an NYCL GP7.
I will count you a winner because you came close:
Local South Ferry - 129th Street
Local City Hall - 129th Street
Local South Ferry - Treemont Avenue
Local City Hall - Treemont Avenue
Local Express (2) South Ferry - Fordham Road or Bronx Park (sw to local track at 149)
Local Express (2) City Hall - Fordham Road or Bronx Park (switch to local track at 149th)
Through Express City Hall - 241St. White Plains Rd (Av.) (sw. to l. c. at Treemont Av.)
Express (or L. E dep on sign) City Hall - Freeman St., bypass 149th on Bergan cutoff, all stops north
That is a total of 10. But I have been told that sometimes a Through Express would have Gun Hill Road as its northern destination, but I never experienced it. That would make 11.
The Fordham or or Bronx Park northern destination for the local expresses seemed rather random, without any particular order. Bronx Park was not a heavy destination during rush hours, and there was a connecting bridge from the station to the 200th Street Station on the main line on Webster Avenue. Third Avenue is the only Manhatan numbered Avenue that continues into the Bronx, but it merges into Webster Avenue at Fordham Plaza. The double deck elevated bridge was from 2nd Avenue to private right of way, with el returning to 3rd Avenue at 149th Street. All locals (to Treemont Ave, of course) used the lower level of the bridge, and all other northbound trains during the evening rush used the upper level, which was one direction only after 2nd Ave quit, eastern track northbound in the evening and western track southbound in the morning. All trains were the rebuilt gate cars into multiple unit door control closed platform wood cars, except the Through Expresses which used mostly ex-subway composite cars, supplemented by two to four seven-car unrebuit gate-car trains, requiring a crew of seven.
Your question.
You're talking to a guy for whom CTA A/B skip stop service was pretty heady stuff...
I count 4 clear express services (City Hall/So. Ferry - 241st/Bronx Pak)
Local express City Hall/So Ferry - Freeman (2 services)
Local City Hall/So Ferry -129 (2 services)
Local City Hall- 149 (2 services
City Hall/So Ferry - Tremont (2 services)
That puts me back down in the 12 range. Still a lot of choices for the casual rider.
You are still trying to use all combinations. A lot don't make much sense. Obviously no local express is going to run City Hall or South Ferry to 129th Street, And no local is going to make it all the way from City Hall or South Ferry to Bronx Park or 241st Street. Look at the progression from nightime to Sunday to weekday non rush hour and think logically what the rush hour service should look like.
On both the local and express tracks northbound, trains ran on a 2-1/2 minute headway on the average, below 129th Street. (Yes, this meant that southbound, there was a 75 second headway, without signals, trains running on site, but not very fast and a fair proportion light without stopping at any station.) North of 129th Street, local track (lower level on the bridge) headways were doubled, half the locals stopped at 129th. But headways remained tight on the northbound express track until the Bergen cutoff at 143rd. Then there was a gap. North of Fordham Road and on the express track south of Treemont Avenue, north of 149th Street, headways were every 7-1/2 minutes. But headways on the local track between 149th and Treemont Avenue were about as tight as headways on either track in Manhattan. Trains arriving at Fordham Road on the local track either to go to overnight storage on the center track north of Fordham Road or to terminate at Bronx Park and then run south as local, came on a 2-1/2 - 5 -2-1/2 -5 minute pattern. Trains terminating at Treemont Avenue and going to the elevate yard for overnight storage came every 7-1/2 minutes, with the other trains running through to Fordham Road. But the headway on the local track below Fordham Road and above was the same. Trains could be stored on the center track between Treemont Avenue and Fordham Road, even though it was signaled.
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