I believe that would be the Washington - Shreveport sleeper which ran over the Southern (twice) the Norfolk & Western and the Illinois Central. It was carried in the SR's Pelican between Washington and Meridian and in the IC's Southwestern/Northeastern Ltd. between Meridian and Shreveport. The N&W portion of the Pelican's route was between Lynchburg and Bristol.
Mark
We'll try one more Pullmn line question:
This car ran from an eastern city to a mid-size city on the west side of the Mississipi, on three different RRs, one of which handled it twice. The car lasted at least to the late 1950s.
rcdrye How about the through PRR/CB&Q/D&RGW/WP General/CZ car: Trenton NJ, Harrisburg PA, Lincoln NE, Denver CO, Salt Lake City UT, Sacramento CA
How about the through PRR/CB&Q/D&RGW/WP General/CZ car:
Trenton NJ, Harrisburg PA, Lincoln NE, Denver CO, Salt Lake City UT, Sacramento CA
Bingo - Another correct answer so the next question is yours. I know this NY-Oakland sleeper was carried by the Pennsylvania Ltd. for some years and didn't realize it was ever handled in the consist of the General.
How about the through PRR/CB&Q/D&RGW/WP California Zephyr car:
I know it ran on the General in at least one direction on the PRR. Since I don't think it ran in the Broadway, maybe the Pennsylvania Limited in the other?
daveklepper Boston, Providence, Trenton, Wilmington, Richmond, St. Augustine, the Boston - Miami sleeper carried on the East Coat Champion or Florida Special for a while.
Boston, Providence, Trenton, Wilmington, Richmond, St. Augustine, the Boston - Miami sleeper carried on the East Coat Champion or Florida Special for a while.
Dave, it's early and you probably haven't had your wake up coffee yet so a couple of mistakes are understandable. Raleigh, not Wilmington, is the capital of North Carolina. Likewise, Tallahassee, not St. Augustine, is the capital of Florida. With those two scratches only four capitals are left.
rcdrye Pennsy trains from New York to St. Louis passed through Trenton NJ, Harrisburg PA, Columbus OH and Indianapolis IN (in the 1970s the National Limited ran through to Kansas City and picked up Jefferson City MO). If you add on through MP cars carried on the Penn Texas and the Texas Eagle you pull in Little Rock AR and Austin TX. I think the winner is 6 for Penn Texas/Texas Eagle
Pennsy trains from New York to St. Louis passed through Trenton NJ, Harrisburg PA, Columbus OH and Indianapolis IN (in the 1970s the National Limited ran through to Kansas City and picked up Jefferson City MO). If you add on through MP cars carried on the Penn Texas and the Texas Eagle you pull in Little Rock AR and Austin TX. I think the winner is 6 for Penn Texas/Texas Eagle
You've got one. The NY - San Antonio sleeper carried on the Penn-Texas and Texas Eagle served the six state capitals you've mentioned.
There was another route that also ran through six capitals. What was it?
I knew I shouldn't have done this on an empty stomach...
Revised list:
The George Washington carried a New York-Louisville sleeper so it got Trenton NJ, Charlottesville VA, Charleston WV and Frankfort KY for 4.
PRR/RF&P/SAL trains got Trenton NJ, Richmond VA, Raleigh NC, and Columbia SC. If you went west on SAL you got Trenton NJ, Richmond VA, Raleigh NC and Atlanta GA
4 each for Siver Meteor, Silver Star and Silver Comet
Boston-Pittsburgh NH/PRR Pittsburgher got Boston MA, Providence RI, Trenton NJ and Harrisburg PA for 4
Through Twin Cities-LA cars on RI/SP Twin Star Rocket/Golden State got St Paul MN, Des Moines IA, Topeka KS and Phoenix AZ for 4
Pre-1970 PRR/SR/WPR/L&N Crescent got Trenton NJ, Atlanta GA and Montgomery AL for 3
Best the NYC could do were the Boston cars on the Southwestern Limited which got Boston MA, Albany NY and Indianapolis IN. (The Ohio State Limited got Columbus OH instead).
Annapolis is the Capital of Maryland.
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The George Washington carried a New York-Louisville sleeper so it got Trenton NJ, Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Charleston WV and Frankfort KY for 5.
PRR/RF&P/SAL trains got Trenton NJ, Baltimore MD, Richmond VA, Raleigh NC, and Columbia SC. If you went west on SAL you got Trenton NJ, Baltimore MD, Richmond VA, Raleigh NC and Atlanta GA
5 for Siver Meteor and Silver Star, 5 for Silver Comet
Pre-1970 PRR/SR/WPR/L&N Crescent got Trenton NJ, Baltimore MD, Atlanta GA and Montgomery AL for 4
In the 1940-1970 time period what sleeping car route (or routes) passed through the largest number of state capitals? Name the trains that carried this/these car(s), and the capital cites served.
Western Ave. it is. At its maximum extent (as Through Route 10, still seen on #10 buses today) it ran from Howard (7600 N or 9.5 miles from Madison St) to 111th ( 11100 S or 13.875 miles from Madison St ) totalling 23.375 miles. Even after the cutback it ran from Devon (6400 N 8 mi) to 79th ( 7900 or 9.875 miles) totalling 17.875 miles (plus a half mile or so on Devon). Riverview park lasted only 13 years longer than Western Ave. streetcars. Western Ave crossed all three Metropolitan L lines, plus Lake St. In the last few years, the Garfield PArk line crossed at grade on temporary tracks in Van Buren St.
Just to check - Halsted (TR 8) cars ran on Halsted from Waveland (3700 N or 4.125 M) to 85th (8500S or 10.625 M) before turning onto Vincennes for a total of 14.75 miles. The State part of Broadway-State cars ran on State from Division (1200N 1.5 Mi) to 95th (9500 S or 11.875 mi) for a total of 13.375 miles.
KCSFan - the next question is yours.
That would make it the Western Ave. line which I was actually thinking of when I mentioned Halsted St. As a kid I rode the Western Ave car line on our annual school outings to Riverview amusement park.
Close - a little further west...
Halsted ended at the Waveland loop on the north side near where Halsted meets Clark.
State was always paired with Broadway as a through route since State runs into the lake on the North Side.
rcdrye The Boston-White River Jct train was the New Englander, which also carried a through sleeper via the Montrealer . Day travel to Montreal over the CP took the White Mountain Division via Plymouth on the Allouette. Before it was cut back to run between loops (for PCC operation) this streetcar line ran more than 20 miles on the same street, crossing three branches of the same rapid transit division, and the only line of another.
The Boston-White River Jct train was the New Englander, which also carried a through sleeper via the Montrealer . Day travel to Montreal over the CP took the White Mountain Division via Plymouth on the Allouette.
Before it was cut back to run between loops (for PCC operation) this streetcar line ran more than 20 miles on the same street, crossing three branches of the same rapid transit division, and the only line of another.
I'm not familiar with any through car services to Montreal on these routes, either, except maybe at one time perhaps the Harlem to the Rutland...but that is a wild guess. Other wild but never used routings could have been by either the Erie or Lackawanna to Bingahmton and D&H to Montreal (O&W from Weehawken to Sidney connectiong with the D&H, too). From Binghamton to Syracuse to Malone or BInghamton to Utica and various routes out of there. Many available routeings but never through car service much less the likleyhood of connecting services. But fun to think about what was and therefore what could have been.
rc got all the through car routes, and yes I counted going from Penn Station as a different route (The Montrealer-Wasningtonian) from going from Grand Central Terminal (Ambassador). And the through car via CP off the Montrealer to the Red Wing did exist at one time, and you got that. That was the trick.
Generally, both the Boston section of the Montrealer (possibly with a different name, anyyone remember? via CV-CN) and the Red Wing (via CP) were the same train from Boston to Concord, NH, in my experience, from 1949 on. These and the Ambassador sections were joined at White River Junction. By 1949, the car from the Montrealer to the Red Wing at Wells River had been dropped.
Henry is correct about alternate routes to travel, but I am not aware of any through cars on these routes.
So, rc, we await your question.
Two other possiblities....NYC's Harlem Div via Chatham to Rutland RR or Albany, NYS West Shore to Albany. Out of Utica you could go to Carthage or Watertown to Massina; you could go through the Adorndacks to Cornwall to Montreal, too I believe. Whether or not these routes had through car services at this time period, I'm not sure.
Are you counting GCT and Penn as "minor differences"? The three obvious routes are first:
New York-New Haven-Springfield-White River Jct-St Albans-Montreal NYNH&H-B&M-CV/CN Day - Ambassador (GCT) Night Montrealer/Washingtonian (Penn) CV/CN had alternate routes between St Albans VT and St. Johns QC, though pre-WW II preferred the direct St Albans-St Johns route instead of the modern route via East Alburgh and Cantic.
New York-Albany-Troy-Rutland-Rouses Point-Montreal NYC-B&M-RUT-CN Day - Green Mountain Flyer Night - Mount Royal
New York-Albany-Troy Rouses Point Montreal NYC/D&H/NJ Day - Laurentian Night - Montreal Limited
NYC and D&H handed off at either Albany or Troy. NYC Albany to Troy had alternate routes on both sides of the Hudson.
The others should be:
New York-New Haven-Springfield-White River Jct-Wells River-Montreal NYNH&H/B&M/CP Through cars but not through trains. B&M/CP Red Wing (night) north of White Rver Jct.
New York-Utica-Malone-Montreal NYC
New York-Syracuse-Norwood-Malone-Montreal NYC (Norwood-Malone RUT trackage rights)
New York Syracuse Massena Montreal NYC
NYC's Adirondack and St. Lawrence divisions had an incredible density of through car operations considering the sparse population of the area. I may have missed an alternate route or two since you could get from Utica to Massena a few different ways, with or without going through Syracuse.
I remembered the BAR cars after leaving the computer terminal and could not get back until now. I did not know about the Cotton Belt cars, and I did not consider the LV cars as true American Flyers. I wrongly assumed they were rebuilt standard coaches to look more streamlined, something that the LV was known to do with locomotives as well as other equipment. The Reading had very similar cars, some of which wound up on the B&M running with the regular B&M AF's in trains, but the window arrangement was different and they were built by Bethlahem Steel, if I remember correctly.
My question, in the best days of rail travel, say just before WWII, what were the through car routes one could ride between New York and Montreal? Ride without leaving one's seat or berth. Minor differences mean different routes. Name the trains if you can. But the railroad names are essential. Hint: There are more than what is obvious.
I'll accept that as a pretty good slice. BAR had a 9 cars (4 B/M, 3 grl-chch, 2 coach) and the Cotton Belt also had 10 coaches that eventually ended up on the SP.
Variations: SAL had Jim Crow Baggage-coaches, BAR had grill-coaches and baggage-mail cars. LV had ten coaches with non-AF-style ends. B&M had A/C (long haul) and non-A/C suburban coaches.
The through services were all in the northeast - NYNH&H on PRR, NYNH&H and B&M on CV/CN, B&M on CP, B&M on MEC and B&M on Rutland. It's also possible that B&M's cars ran on the Gull (B&M/MEC/CP/CN).
Your question.
daveklepper Waas the box car just a trailer (probably wood, with radial couplers and archbar trucks) or a powered freight motor boxcar?
Waas the box car just a trailer (probably wood, with radial couplers and archbar trucks) or a powered freight motor boxcar?
Dave, I take it you are asking about the first freight car to have roller bearings. It was a boxcar of the Wheeling & Lake Erie, a Class I steam railroad.
But I think have the answer: Original purchases were by NYNH&H, B&M, KCS, and Seabord. Then of course some soldiered on for PC, and Conrail-Metro-North. I believe I rode these cars in all these six catagories. A few are still in operation on tourists lines, including the Cape Cod operaton and possibly in Connecticut. All cars were coaches except six or ten grille cars for the New Haven, which were converted to coaches after WWII with interiors matching the postwar fluted side cars (8600's). The New Haven coaches were originally numbered from 8200 upward. One car was thoroughly modernized and renumbered 1000, but the pilot project was never duplicated.
Question: During the height of the rail era, with the maximuim number of streetcar, interurban, and steam railroad lines in operation, name all the possible combinations of routes that you could use reasonably directly between Jersey City and Washington, DC, using rail all the way with possibly only very short walking tansfers ( few blocks). Then do the same for today! Reasonably directly: Must touch Trenton or W. Trenton, Philadelphia, Baltimore.
But Ferrryboat crossings are not allowed.
OOPS!!! Sorry, I posted this before seeing the question actually answered more correctly apologies!!
The CERA bulletin TraveLectric has the RS&E/S&N info.
Which railroads owned pre-war "American Flyer" cars? Which RRs operated them regularly in through service, but did not own any? Which RRs bought them secondhand?
The gimme on this is the classic AF car owned by the NYNH&H. The rounded end on the arch roof is the particular marker.
rcdrye Rochester Sysacuse and Eastern and Syracuse Nothern bothhad interurban car equipped with roller bearings in regular service in 1911, as did Lehigh Valley Transit. All of the bearings were later removed because at that stage they didn't represent much if any operational cost savings over well-maintained friction bearings for the short interurban runs, plus they required custom wheelsets.
Rochester Sysacuse and Eastern and Syracuse Nothern bothhad interurban car equipped with roller bearings in regular service in 1911, as did Lehigh Valley Transit. All of the bearings were later removed because at that stage they didn't represent much if any operational cost savings over well-maintained friction bearings for the short interurban runs, plus they required custom wheelsets.
You are right about passenger cars with roller bearings and I stand corrected. I haven't been able to find any info about the cars of the first two interurbans you mention but LVT No. 800 definitely was built with roller bearings by the Jewitt Car Co. in 1911 or, as stated in the Jewitt site, 1912.
Since you mentioned LVT 800 in an earlier reply you should be declared the winner of this question.
It's beginning to look like no one is going to be able to answer this question and I can't think of another hint to give you so here's the answers. In 1923 roller bearings were put on a Northern Ohio Traction interurban car marking the first time they were used in passenger service. Later in the same year they were applied to a Wheeling & Lake Erie boxcar.
Daveklepper has struggled mightily to answer this question so I'll declare him the winner and reward him with the opportunity to ask the next question.
daveklepper Dayton and Troy? Dayton and Western? Possibly on both an early lightweight interurban, possibly built by Cincinnatti, and possibly also on a trolley frieght motor? Often these latter were wood interuban paswenger cars replaced by steel and rebuilt with windows boraded up and wide sliding doors installed, usually one on each side. Often the grears were changed for lower speed and the ability to pull more trailers. But some steel ones were built new following that pattern, and some could mu with passenger equipment.
Dayton and Troy? Dayton and Western? Possibly on both an early lightweight interurban, possibly built by Cincinnatti, and possibly also on a trolley frieght motor? Often these latter were wood interuban paswenger cars replaced by steel and rebuilt with windows boraded up and wide sliding doors installed, usually one on each side. Often the grears were changed for lower speed and the ability to pull more trailers. But some steel ones were built new following that pattern, and some could mu with passenger equipment.
Sorry Dave but it wasn't on a car of either of those two roads. It was definitely on a heavy weight interurban passenger car not a freight motor. My source doesn't mention the builder or whether it was a motorized car or trailer.
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